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TheExorcist
Guest
Im fairly certain that the Mass said at SSPX chapels is said from the same Missal as my FSSP parish Masses. Is it not? In fact the Missal I use is published by Angelus, what used to be the SSPX publishing arm.
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thewanderer
Guest
I think tey were saying it is invalid. Which is actually incorrect. The mass celebrated by SSPX, as I understand it, is valid but illicit. So, yes, it can technically fulfill your sunday duty because it is a valid mass… but it is illicit so I don’t think people should go there without a really good reason. Helping to fix your marriage seems like a pretty good reason to me.
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adopted_heir
Guest
The Mass said at SSPX/FSSP parishes is the same Mass said for oh, about fifteen hundred years (with the exception of the addition of the name of St Joseph into the prayers to the saints). The TLM is valid and licit; the issue is with the licitness (I know that’s not a word) of the bishops LeFebvre ordained, not with the liturgy he used. So much of the strife that has come out of and caused this strain between SSPX and Rome is because of the false notion that the New Mass is a translation of the Old. It is not. If someone is trying to tell you that it is a translation in any honest sense of the word, they are either ignorant or lying. I’m sorry if that seems mean, but you can read a translation of the Old Mass on the right-hand side of every page of the missal. You can compare it to the NO missal. There are differences in ideologies and emphasis as well as outright changes in what is being said. Whether this invalidates the new Mass is beyond the scope of this thread, but it is one of the issues that SSPX (I can’t speak for other traditional communities or parishes or beyond my understanding of this one) is at the very least concerned about. As well they should be–any and every Catholic should be alarmed at the thought of actual changes being wrought to the Mass, if it is at all what the Catholic Church for all Christendom has taught it is.The matter of veils is also another matter, but worth looking into. There is a very short book of two essays, easily read in an hour or two, which details the reasons two young ladies choose to wear their veils. (Sorry I can’t recall the title but it is available from Angelus Press.) It is not a subjugation of women. For those who like Scripture to bolster every act of the faith, the Bible does say a woman’s head should be covered, a man’s head should not, because a woman’s head uncovered would be her shame, and a man’s head covered would be his shame. I don’t see how a man asking his wife to wear a veil is an abuse or controlling.
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it, but the Mass is supposed to be universal (being ‘catholic’ and all), so a difference in language does not essentially matter–the intent and action are the same all over the world and throughout time and eternity. It is not being performed for your benefit, but as a sacrifice pleasing to God and efficacious for mankind. We don’t need to understand it. It’s nice to, sure, that’s why I use a missal. But I’m not the focal point of Mass. It can happen without me there to ‘participate.’ Children I think would benefit more from knowing that happens at Mass rather than being worried about whether they can understand what is being said. For that matter, the concepts being discussed are not really child-level theology, so the words might as well be in another language anyway. (That is where home catechesis becomes necessary–it’s up to Mom and Dad to give them the formation so they understand what is being said, whether Latin or vernacular, and what is actually happening, which is to say, the unbloody sacrifice of Christ re-presented to God for mankind.)
She needs to sit down and talk to her husband. Take her questions to him directly. If they cannot be resolved one-to-one, the mediation of a knowledgeable priest or counsellor is needed. Do some reading on why there is a difference (when one is perceived) and why these things are worth the trouble for SSPXers.
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LilyM
Guest
No, it was never ‘abrogated’. That means it was never canceled or abolished - never utterly and completely forbidden and done away with. That is what ‘abrogate’ means.
It WAS however, restricted, not abolished or abrogated but restricted, being made available only by indult for a time.
The instruction letter to Summorum Pontificum makes numerous references to the fact that John Paul II granted an indult, or permission, for the EF to be said. So it is clearly the case that the EF WAS at one time a matter of indult as CITH is.
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thewanderer
Guest
adopted heir,
just to clarify, I was not in any way suggesting that the EF is in and of itself illicit, just that the SSPX cannot licitly perform any of the sacraments as the order currently stands, which is why the OP was cautioned against going to confession to the SSPX… confession is not valid unless it is licit, unless death is iminent.
just to clarify, I was not in any way suggesting that the EF is in and of itself illicit, just that the SSPX cannot licitly perform any of the sacraments as the order currently stands, which is why the OP was cautioned against going to confession to the SSPX… confession is not valid unless it is licit, unless death is iminent.
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nute
Guest
Attending mass just to be clear is not a passive activity. It does matter what you do at mass because mass is in fact a priest offering to Christ the prayers and intentions of his congregation. Saying it simply doesn’t matter whether the mass makes sense or not misses the participation part entirely. Yes, the mass is universal and spoken in both
Latin and the vernacular.
Agreeing to go to a mass she is uncomfortable with that she doesn’t feel she can participate in will NOT save her marriage. Furthermore, she mentioned that her husband is becoming suspicious of the Vatican and looking to pull away. There are illicit masses, she shouldn’t go down with her husband if he intends to attend one regularly.
God doesn’t care if you attend mass in the vernacular or in Latin, so long as the mass is licit according to Rome. Saying that God doesn’t care if you understand or not is ludicrous, why then would the apostles have received the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit? Those who heard the apostles preach exclaimed, “…are not these Galileans? Yet, I hear them speak in my native language.” As Catholics, we shouldn’t prefer the mass in one language over another. The beauty of the mass depends greatly on your
own participation in it, regardless of the language it is spoken in.
A priest should take this thread up, I can’t comment well enough on it.
Latin and the vernacular.
Agreeing to go to a mass she is uncomfortable with that she doesn’t feel she can participate in will NOT save her marriage. Furthermore, she mentioned that her husband is becoming suspicious of the Vatican and looking to pull away. There are illicit masses, she shouldn’t go down with her husband if he intends to attend one regularly.
God doesn’t care if you attend mass in the vernacular or in Latin, so long as the mass is licit according to Rome. Saying that God doesn’t care if you understand or not is ludicrous, why then would the apostles have received the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit? Those who heard the apostles preach exclaimed, “…are not these Galileans? Yet, I hear them speak in my native language.” As Catholics, we shouldn’t prefer the mass in one language over another. The beauty of the mass depends greatly on your
own participation in it, regardless of the language it is spoken in.
A priest should take this thread up, I can’t comment well enough on it.
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hartandhunter
Guest
Please be careful. I grew up in a similar situation to the one you are talking about. My father was convinced that no parish was good enough, and it was constantly causing strife in my parent’s marriage that my mom wasn’t “Catholic” enough. We would drive for an hour and half every Sunday to another state to reach a parish that sounds like the one you are afraid of, where you feel judged. And Judged we kids and my mother felt. We are not attending Mass to impress others and when you are in a small community where you feel more compelled to concentrate on what others think of you it can be devastating.I have tried to compromise with him by occasionally attending a Parish that is a solemn Latin Novus Ordo Mass, Holy Rosary in Portland. It is not close, but not terribly far. They have a large thriving community and a beautiful Church, but no school, only homeschooling families.
Holy Rosary is a nice parish, but I feel out of place there. I feel sort of judged, I guess. I have no friends there and all the families are big, like 10 kids or more. I am young and only have 3 kids. I am afraid they wont accept me because the idea of having 10+ kids terrifies me. I think they will look at me like I am liberal, but I’m not at all. I want my kids to pray the rosary daily and have good faithful friends. I want everything that you said, Jacob Dominic. But I don’t know any Latin, I have a lot of trouble following. My kids pull my veil off and I always look like a mess.
People can say “just ignore them” or “that isn’t the point” all they want. Ten years later, my Father and I are the only ones still going to Mass and my parents ending up getting divorced because she constantly felt put down by him about not being “Catholic” enough. My sisters and I were teenagers at the time and it was critical period of formation for us that was totally lost. We felt like outsiders, like we were never good enough. I alone of the girls in my family clung to the faith, by the grace of God, but not before major spiritual desolation and trouble in my teens, “great Catholic parish” or not. It hurt more than it helped.
So I am saying you and your husband have to get this figured out. He cannot make you, and thereby your children, feel like you are not in communion with the Church when you clearly are. It will teach your children not to trust the Church because there is a “right” and “wrong” way to be Catholic even if you are both doing what the Church prescribes. Another thing my father never considered is that if he doesn’t like what is/was going on in parishes, why doesn’t he stay and try to fix it? Why doesn’t he get involved with the parish groups and councils and see if he can influence them if indeed they are “straying” to come back to what they need to? And if they are NOT doing anything that is against what the Church prescribes then it is simply in issue of pride and he will need your prayers.
I “feel” most Catholic when I attend Mass at the Cathedral and they have the pipe organ and the choir going. That doesn’t mean that the youth Mass I normally attend makes me any less Catholic. The trimming does not the Catholic make.
Peace Be With You
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bonvivantHermit
Guest
Kate,
Does you husband exhibit controlling behaviors or obsessive compulsive symptoms?
It may not be religion per se, but his own behavior/personality. Hard to deal with when
he claims to have the Truth.
I have sadly seen what you describe before- many times trads tend to make up their own rules as liberals tend to ignore Church teaching. You are in a tough spot. I would get involved at your neighborhood parish even if he does not go. If he cannot accept a Novus Ordo parish in good standing -he will find excuses to splinter himself off to the “perfect parish.” There’s no end- I am not saying don’t go to a Trad (one in Communion) but make it a point to say attend weekly or holy day masses at the Novus Ordo parish.
This type of behavior can get very weird to the point they debate the licitness of artifical sweetners. No joke. God Bless.
PS
By attending the NO parish you are, if he’s OCD, forcing him to face his phobia/scrupulosity of NO- it’s called exposure therapy. Spouses of those with OCD are taught not to accomodate the unreasonable demands of their spouse.
Does you husband exhibit controlling behaviors or obsessive compulsive symptoms?
It may not be religion per se, but his own behavior/personality. Hard to deal with when
he claims to have the Truth.
I have sadly seen what you describe before- many times trads tend to make up their own rules as liberals tend to ignore Church teaching. You are in a tough spot. I would get involved at your neighborhood parish even if he does not go. If he cannot accept a Novus Ordo parish in good standing -he will find excuses to splinter himself off to the “perfect parish.” There’s no end- I am not saying don’t go to a Trad (one in Communion) but make it a point to say attend weekly or holy day masses at the Novus Ordo parish.
This type of behavior can get very weird to the point they debate the licitness of artifical sweetners. No joke. God Bless.
PS
By attending the NO parish you are, if he’s OCD, forcing him to face his phobia/scrupulosity of NO- it’s called exposure therapy. Spouses of those with OCD are taught not to accomodate the unreasonable demands of their spouse.
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bonvivantHermit
Guest
PS
As far as your children, please understand Catholics do not follow a quiverfull mentality. We can for licit, not just grave, reasons space children w/ NFP. Our mental health matters.
And I am sorry you have felt judged, for real or not, I know for myself such judgement does occur- at least I have been the victim of it. I will not tell you how many children I have, as there’s no “right number” just that I do wish I had another or more, not because I made a mistake or sin spacing children, but because I wish I had more of God’s gifts. Unfortunately,
for reasons I do not share I could not.
I suppose I am tougher person, but I have to laugh interiorly when I hear fellow women speaking loudly near me about the merits of children and not using birth control. I don’t speak about my “personal life” so I let it go. Also, it is rarely spoken of but NFP takes faith and sacrifice- I know my husband and I have grown in our faith b/c of NFP.
As far as your children, please understand Catholics do not follow a quiverfull mentality. We can for licit, not just grave, reasons space children w/ NFP. Our mental health matters.
And I am sorry you have felt judged, for real or not, I know for myself such judgement does occur- at least I have been the victim of it. I will not tell you how many children I have, as there’s no “right number” just that I do wish I had another or more, not because I made a mistake or sin spacing children, but because I wish I had more of God’s gifts. Unfortunately,
for reasons I do not share I could not.
I suppose I am tougher person, but I have to laugh interiorly when I hear fellow women speaking loudly near me about the merits of children and not using birth control. I don’t speak about my “personal life” so I let it go. Also, it is rarely spoken of but NFP takes faith and sacrifice- I know my husband and I have grown in our faith b/c of NFP.
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mattkubes
Guest
^ Or: Performing psychoanalysis and guiding psychotherapy on the internet is almost always a bad idea.
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bonvivantHermit
Guest
So we shouldn’t ask her questions?
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mattkubes
Guest
Who said that? My post was about attempts at psychoanalysis and psychotherapy.
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bonvivantHermit
Guest
Well, if you are referring to my post- I wasn’t. I asked questions and gave my opinion experience. Would be helpful you noted who you were posting about.
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nute
Guest
I hope the women who initially posted here has gotten this far in the thread. This thread
is about her situation and her needs, not whether or not a particular Latin mass is valid
or beautiful.
I’m so glad someone posted a warning about his mother and sisters who lost their faith because they, “weren’t Catholic enough.” These people need to be in our prayers.
Mrs. so and so, if you are reading this:
I have never been married, but I have experienced sexual abuse at the hands of an older woman who will remain nameless. Loving her didn’t stop the abuse let alone cause a long term relationship to form.
ABUSE IS NOT PART OF MARRIAGE. CONSISTENT UNRELENTING ABUSE IS GROUNDS TO LEAVE A MARRIAGE. IF LEAVING IS NOT SUFFICIENT, THE
CHURCH MAY GRANT AN ANULLMENT AFTER A DIVORCE IS SECURED. ALL
REASONABLE EFFORT AND STEPS MUST BE TAKEN TO RESOLVE THE MARITAL PROBLEMS AND SAVE THE MARRIAGE IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.
Please Mrs. so and so, take heed of what I say and move to protect yourself and the children. I pray God will bring healing to your marriage, but He may need you to get
out of harm’s way first. Before the abuse started, this is what your husband would want you to do now.
Peace and Courage, God Bless.
is about her situation and her needs, not whether or not a particular Latin mass is valid
or beautiful.
I’m so glad someone posted a warning about his mother and sisters who lost their faith because they, “weren’t Catholic enough.” These people need to be in our prayers.
Mrs. so and so, if you are reading this:
- Abuse does not get better no matter how much you love the person.
- Abuse has to be confronted ASAP where you must find the courage to take additional
steps if necessary. - Spiritual abuse is abuse where abuse is not part of marriage.
- Having more children in an abusive situation will not improve the situation even though
children are always a beautiful gift from God.
Children deserve to be the result of a loving union between a husband and wife.
- Tell your spouse you feel hurt and request he join you in an appropriate, safe, and
neutral setting that fascilitates talking and problem solving.- Find a priest to advise the two of you spiritually.
- If 1 doesn’t work, take courage and get a legal seperation.
- If 2 doesn’t work, file for divorce.
- If he is still abusive, fight him for full custody of the children and file for an anullment.
I have never been married, but I have experienced sexual abuse at the hands of an older woman who will remain nameless. Loving her didn’t stop the abuse let alone cause a long term relationship to form.
ABUSE IS NOT PART OF MARRIAGE. CONSISTENT UNRELENTING ABUSE IS GROUNDS TO LEAVE A MARRIAGE. IF LEAVING IS NOT SUFFICIENT, THE
CHURCH MAY GRANT AN ANULLMENT AFTER A DIVORCE IS SECURED. ALL
REASONABLE EFFORT AND STEPS MUST BE TAKEN TO RESOLVE THE MARITAL PROBLEMS AND SAVE THE MARRIAGE IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.
Please Mrs. so and so, take heed of what I say and move to protect yourself and the children. I pray God will bring healing to your marriage, but He may need you to get
out of harm’s way first. Before the abuse started, this is what your husband would want you to do now.
Peace and Courage, God Bless.
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floresco
Guest
I am sure glad that I did not post here when my husband and I were having disagreements about which Mass to attend. I would have been offended by people trying to psychoanalyze us. And I would have been really angry and upset if someone told me that my husband was abusive and I should leave him.
It is sad that this woman turned here for help and has gotten so many bad responses.
It is sad that this woman turned here for help and has gotten so many bad responses.
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floresco
Guest
I just reread every thing in this thread that the OP had to say about her situation. There is nothing that suggests her husband has a personality disorder or is spiritually abusive or any other kind of abusive. She describes them as working together to reach a compromise that they can both live with. Even though he has been influenced by sedevacantists, her influence has kept him in the Church. She writes about wanting to be a good wife. Other than this problem around Traditionalism, it sounds like a good marriage and they both seem like nice people.
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nute
Guest
This isn’t a disagreement it seems about which mass to go to. There seems to be a problem with whether or not the “mass” that the husband wants to attend is licit. Trying to force your wife to go to an illicit mass is unacceptable. Note that I did NOT say, “step 1, get a divorce.” I said for step 1 to get a spiritual adviser and communicate with your husband to try and solve the problem. Note also that I say loudly in all caps to do everything possible to save the marriage. If she is comfortable in her community or at Holy Rosary, she should probably go to mass there regularly. If her husband says that her Catholic church of choice isn’t Catholic, he is wrong and she needs to address that with him if at all possible. I don’t get the impression that this is a disagreement about which church to go to, it seems more and more to be a situation where the husband wants to attend an illicit “mass” where this woman is enabling him if she goes along with it. They seem to have a critical disagreement where the husband is losing his faith, she has to decide whether she will lose hers too or take a stand for her faith and her marriage.
Also please note, you never have to go beyond step 1 if the problem can be resolved satisfactorily. One possibility is that the husband’s confidence in licit masses is restored, the ideal outcome. I don’t have enough information to say, “Oh, the husband is abusive.” Part of Catholic marriage is vowing to bring up children in the Catholic tradition and hopefully they will receive the faith. Taking the children to illicit “masses” is not in line with Catholic marriage vows.
This woman feels judged for a reason and this could be a cry for help. I’m sorry someone thinks that my response is offensive. Let me be clear, I am not judging the husband. I simply am suggesting IF the situation is an abuse one that the wife take steps to stop the abuse or barring that, get herself and her children away from it.
I don’t have a license nor do I have enough information to sufficiently psychoanalyze this woman or her husband. This is not what I did either. Psychoanalysis requires observation and asking the right questions in the right way, not to mention a license.
Look at the title of this thread, this women is upset about where her husband is at the very least.
Also please note, you never have to go beyond step 1 if the problem can be resolved satisfactorily. One possibility is that the husband’s confidence in licit masses is restored, the ideal outcome. I don’t have enough information to say, “Oh, the husband is abusive.” Part of Catholic marriage is vowing to bring up children in the Catholic tradition and hopefully they will receive the faith. Taking the children to illicit “masses” is not in line with Catholic marriage vows.
This woman feels judged for a reason and this could be a cry for help. I’m sorry someone thinks that my response is offensive. Let me be clear, I am not judging the husband. I simply am suggesting IF the situation is an abuse one that the wife take steps to stop the abuse or barring that, get herself and her children away from it.
I don’t have a license nor do I have enough information to sufficiently psychoanalyze this woman or her husband. This is not what I did either. Psychoanalysis requires observation and asking the right questions in the right way, not to mention a license.
Look at the title of this thread, this women is upset about where her husband is at the very least.
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floresco
Guest
There was no suggestion that he was trying to force her to do anything. She mentioned that they had tried an SSPX chapel in their attempts to find a compromise they could both live with. She also mentioned that they have tried a Latin Novus Ordo Mass and has alluded to other Masses tried.
This is a couple that values their marriage trying one thing after another in the search of something that will work for both of them. It is very likely from what we have been told that this is a couple that loves and respects each other.
The comment about psychoanalyzing was directed at someone else.
There have been statements from the Vatican that Catholic as allowed to go to SSPX chapels under some circumstances, so there is no reason to act like it is a major sin. If it will help their marriage, that is a very good reason.
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adopted_heir
Guest
It’s amazing how this went from “We’re having troubles over which Mass to attend” to assuming that means she’s being abused or her husband (who as far as I’ve seen hasn’t had any chance to give his opinion or feelings on this matter (at least not in front of us whose business it is not)) has mental disorders. Because we all know, folks who love tradition are guanopsychotic. Aside the irrelevant topics of what Masses are or are not licit or valid, I still move that she needs to have a conversation with her husband about the things that he loves about Tradition and why they are important to him. Trappings like veiling or not are customs encouraged by Trad parishes, but there are reasons for them that have been for the most part forgotten or ignored by NO parishes. I’m not making a judgment call on that; I’ve specifically tried to give my opinion on either form beyond I’ve seen both and prefer one. Maybe rather than trying to diagnose her husband and the pretty ridiculous notion that this issue would ever be so far-flown that we should jump to talking about separation and divorce, could we ask Kate if there has been any progress in the situation? If it hasn’t been done already, express some serious concerns about notions of sedevacantism. (Which is different from either SSPX or FSSP.)Kate, if you haven’t, please talk to him rather than let strangers lead you to being paranoid he has a psychosis or is abusive, neither of which has even been implied. That’s a pretty far stretch from the OP’s description.
PS–I’m nitpicky about this because it’s important, but please, Mass is different than mass. Please capitalize appropriately, if not for the importance of the act, then to differentiate. Thx.
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nute
Guest
About four weeks into our marriage my husband became a traditionalist and started to doubt the validity of the local mass. Am I paraphrasing accurately?
I can’t think of very many Catholic churches that are illicit and there are plenty of Catholics who don’t go to a Latin mass of any kind who consider themselves conservative. Is her husband not happy with the Novus Ordo and English masses because he thinks they are illicit?
There is one Catholic church with many licit masses, not many Catholic churches. Also, the mass is not primarily a spectator event that makes you feel a certain way. The mass is a prayer and an offering to Christ who offers back to the parishioners via the priest his living body and his living blood.
If you know Latin and want to attend a licit Latin mass that is participatory, great. Saying I am a traditionalist and rejecting archdiocesan English masses though is both wrong and unchristian too.
Going to different churches with different rituals to find something is ludicrous. Go to a licit mass in any language and contribute to that mass, that is the only way you will get anything out of it. One must give to receive.
There is a subculture among Catholics that want the pre Vatican II Latin mass who say anything after is heretical. First off, the bible was probably written initially in Greek and Hebrew where Latin is a translation by saint Jerome I believe. Second, rituals have been changing throughout the churches 2k year history. Third, while there are many licit rites in the Catholic church, Catholic means universal. Fourth, parish hopping is bad as parishioners need to root themselves and contribute to their parish to keep it going.
A married couple needs to choose a licit parish. They need to take care that their children can understand the reasoning behind our faith and fully participate in time at mass. The vernacular is easier to understand than Latin, unless Latin is your first language or you are otherwise fluent in Latin. One of the reasons why the church has documents in Latin is that Latin is a dead language. This means that Latin isn’t changing very much if at all.
There are not traditionalists and non traditionalists or conservatives and liberals. There are only Catholics and non Catholics. If you don’t respect life you are not only liberal, you are not Catholic. If you say that artificial birth control is responsible you are not only wrong, you are not Catholic. Say that a Latin mass is the only valid mass, that is heretical. I believe the woman who started this thread voiced concern about a priest who said that the church had been infiltrated by the devil and that his “mass” is the only valid mass. I believe this woman considers herself traditional, but there is no such thing really.
There is no American Catholic Church either, only the universal Catholic Church centered in Rome.
I can’t think of very many Catholic churches that are illicit and there are plenty of Catholics who don’t go to a Latin mass of any kind who consider themselves conservative. Is her husband not happy with the Novus Ordo and English masses because he thinks they are illicit?
There is one Catholic church with many licit masses, not many Catholic churches. Also, the mass is not primarily a spectator event that makes you feel a certain way. The mass is a prayer and an offering to Christ who offers back to the parishioners via the priest his living body and his living blood.
If you know Latin and want to attend a licit Latin mass that is participatory, great. Saying I am a traditionalist and rejecting archdiocesan English masses though is both wrong and unchristian too.
Going to different churches with different rituals to find something is ludicrous. Go to a licit mass in any language and contribute to that mass, that is the only way you will get anything out of it. One must give to receive.
There is a subculture among Catholics that want the pre Vatican II Latin mass who say anything after is heretical. First off, the bible was probably written initially in Greek and Hebrew where Latin is a translation by saint Jerome I believe. Second, rituals have been changing throughout the churches 2k year history. Third, while there are many licit rites in the Catholic church, Catholic means universal. Fourth, parish hopping is bad as parishioners need to root themselves and contribute to their parish to keep it going.
A married couple needs to choose a licit parish. They need to take care that their children can understand the reasoning behind our faith and fully participate in time at mass. The vernacular is easier to understand than Latin, unless Latin is your first language or you are otherwise fluent in Latin. One of the reasons why the church has documents in Latin is that Latin is a dead language. This means that Latin isn’t changing very much if at all.
There are not traditionalists and non traditionalists or conservatives and liberals. There are only Catholics and non Catholics. If you don’t respect life you are not only liberal, you are not Catholic. If you say that artificial birth control is responsible you are not only wrong, you are not Catholic. Say that a Latin mass is the only valid mass, that is heretical. I believe the woman who started this thread voiced concern about a priest who said that the church had been infiltrated by the devil and that his “mass” is the only valid mass. I believe this woman considers herself traditional, but there is no such thing really.
There is no American Catholic Church either, only the universal Catholic Church centered in Rome.
- Status