I feel just horrible

[EasterJoy]

Right.

But no matter what, there is no “the man always pays” rule.

No, you are correct, there is not. In my dad’s time, there were men who would not let a woman host them–even some men who let no one else “pay their way” for them when it was a matter of money changing hands–but that was their problem. That was pride talking, not good manners. There has never been a rule of propriety that says a woman might not host a man at a public eatery.

 

[styrgwillidar]

I am so humiliated by this situation, I just want to burry my head in the sand.

I was set up on a date. I have not been to a restaurant with a man in Lord knows how long. And needless to say, this guy just did not seem to be someone I would care to have as a boyfriend. However, it was very apparent he was a genuine person with feelings and a good heart.

At first I was polite and going along with the small talk. After a while, I just no longer cared to share anything about myself with him. I think he sensed I was nervous and just kept talking about himself. I suspect he is one of those people who just does not like silence.

The more he talked, the more I felt guilty. This poor man was obviously on his best behaviour and there was just no way he was going to win me over. He asked me if I wanted desert to which I replied ‘I think we should get the bill, should we ask for separate bills’, he said ‘it is OK, I asked you’

So when it was time to leave, I said ‘I am very sorry for any inconvenience I have caused you’ and walked to my car and left.

I feel so bad, but I just did not want to get into a long discussion about making future plans or an akward good bye. I just wanted to leave ASAP. To be honest, I think what I feel the worse about is this poor man ended up paying for my meal. I am not in the best of financial situations so I just assume everybody is as low on cash as me.

Not sure there is anything amends I could possible make here. I almost feel like I need to go to confession here

Angie

I’m a guy. If I were him I would say — thank you.

Really, you didn’t do anything wrong and you were very honest, which I would appreciate. Any date is a gamble, you can’t know whether you’ll hit it off with someone until you’re with them for a little bit. When you ask someone out you’re planning on paying so that isn’t a big deal. Truly, if it is than you shouldn’t ask someone out. The host is responsible for ensuring they ask to a venue they can afford.

You didn’t hit it off, cool, it happens. Truly-- not a big deal. I’d much rather have a woman be upfront and part as acquaintances, again a date is a nothing ventured nothing gained kind of thing. He spent a couple of his hours of his life exploring a possibility- done, just not there. No awkwardness if you ever cross paths at some kind of gathering in the future. It was just one dinner. Not a life ending or life shattering or even minor inconvenience kind of thing. It’s a lot worse to let the guy think or wonder about whether he should follow up with a phone call and another date…only to have the woman dodge the phone calls. That’s irritating-- I don’t want to bother someone or waste my or their time. Or worse, she thinks or tells others I’m some kind of creeper who can’t take a hint…

At least for me, clarity is appreciated, I’m not everyone’s cup of tea and as an adult male I can deal with the fact. So can most men. If they can’t, that really isn’t your problem-- it’s theirs.

 

[Xantippe]

Let’s say there are two competing rules. The host does pay, which means for example that I sometimes end up paying for other guys. Under that principle a woman could indeed pay for the man. On the other hand, it tends to be a gentlemanly thing to do to pick up the bill whenever the situation is not too clear and sometimes also when it’s quite clear anyway (but silently, without making a show of it).

A woman who wants to emphasize that her current companion is not a romantic prospect will typically insist on paying her own part, it’s a way of marking distance.

**Right. Also, although there’s currently a lot of murkiness in the area of second dates (I believe current practice is that the guy usually asks), I would encourage young women to adopt the following pattern:

1. If you like him and want to go out more, let him pay, and tell him next time it will be your treat (and then invite him out).
2. If you don’t want to go out again with him ever (barring a catastrophic plague that eliminates all other male humans) pay your half.

There is a sticky issue here in that the person inviting is choosing the venue, and hence the cost of the outing. By alternating hosting and paying privileges, each gets to choose a venue that is within their means, rather than being forced to pay sky high prices for stuff they don’t even like (which might well happen).

There’s also a school of thought that says that it’s unfaaaaair to have to pay for your (female) guest. I believe that’s probably most common among men that have (for whatever reason) a lot of first dates and no repeat business. People with this point of view are often (quite inexplicably) single.
**

My personal opinion is that those things are best not specifically discussed.

**I think if it’s going to be Dutch, it needs to be said upfront. “Do you want to go Dutch to the new Thai place?” for instance, especially if it’s just you and one other person and if you want to make it clear that it’s not a date. People deserve to know if they’re on a date or not on a date.

And with a potluck, it’s quite obvious. “Do you want to come over Friday night for dinner?” is not very nice when it’s followed by an explanation that makes it clear that you the guest are supposed to bring dinner. Better to say, “We’re having a potluck Friday. Could you bring veggies?”

Whatever language one uses (and it will vary from subculture to subculture), it’s very important to make the nature of an invitation clear to the prospective guest when they are deciding whether to go or not.

A lot of people simply cannot afford even minor financial miscalculations and it could be quite cruel to them to impose costs on them that they are not expecting. Your “invitation” could leave them eating pasta for a week. Or, alternately, they might pass on an invitation from you, not realizing that it was your treat. (“My treat!” is good English terminology to make this clear.)
**

Again, it’s not that simple.

Thank you for your kindness, but I don’t think my knowledge of etiquette was inferior or in need of clarification.

I think that your ideas, while kindly meant, lead to a lot of unnecessary hardship and awkwardness.

 

[Xantippe]

It’s not about rules, it’s about kindness.

Doing the usual thing is a form of kindness and thoughtfulness.

People that violate the rules of their particular social milieu make others feel uncomfortable.

(With the necessary exception for social rules that are immoral. For instance, if my local etiquette required killing a slave to demonstrate my magnanmity, it would be immoral for me to go along with that rule of etiquette.)

 

[Xantippe]

Also, generosity can be a burden to recipients.

For instance, let’s say that if in my culture, the norm is that when invited to a children’s birthday party, we’re supposed to give a gift of $15-30 in value.

If I, being only a parent of the birthday boy’s classmate (rather than a grandparent or a godparent), give the birthday boy an all-expenses-paid trip to Disneyland, I’ve done something rude and inconsiderate, and the family will almost certainly say no, not wishing to feel beholden to me.

 

[Xantippe]

Not to monopolize the thread, but I hate check-wrestlers, especially when it’s REALLY clear that one of the parties does not wish to be the recipient of the other party’s generosity and yet the “generous” party insists anyway. Blech.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Not to monopolize the thread, but I hate check-wrestlers, especially when it’s REALLY clear that one of the parties does not wish to be the recipient of the other party’s generosity and yet the “generous” party insists anyway. Blech.

Completely agree. This is why social conventions exist- to eliminate that kind of awkwardness. If I ask someone to a specific activity I was raised to expect that I would pay for it. It would be extremely awkward to ask someone somewhere and than at the end turn to them and say-- oh, by the way you’re paying for your half/participation. Different if I make clear as part of the invite that it’s a dutch type thing-- hey, let’s meet at wherever to do whatever- everyone ok with that it’ll cost ~XXXX? I was raised you don’t arrange something without making that clear, again to avoid the awkwardness of someone assuming the person proposing the activity is acting as host and paying.

Or, if a participant when accepting says, hey, I want to go dutch. Very poor form to insist on paying when the other party has made clear they view it as a going dutch/friends paying their own way kind of thing.

 

[Rico_S]

Long term, I think the OP ought to work on developing her small talk,

Yes. Very practical and useful advice to the OP. Every social setting requires this to some extent. Every one. One may find it silly, useless, and simply a waste of time, but it is absolutely part of our social existence with one another. To disregard it will only make life more difficult.

but I think it would be a good idea not to go to prom with a boy that’s super interested in her if she isn’t interested in him and wants to spend time with her friends instead.

I think telling him no 2 weeks after accepting his invitation is not an option. There were co-mingling of friends on both sides so I think the situation was just fine. It wasn’t a 1 on 1 deal from the get go…only the most serious of “couples” tend to take that route from what we’ve seen. It is very much a friend & date & classmates altogether type party, at least where we live.

 

[Rico_S]

Not to monopolize the thread, but I hate check-wrestlers, especially when it’s REALLY clear that one of the parties does not wish to be the recipient of the other party’s generosity and yet the “generous” party insists anyway. Blech.

How do you feel about credit card roulette? One of my favorite games

 

[chevalier]

Not to monopolize the thread, but I hate check-wrestlers, especially when it’s REALLY clear that one of the parties does not wish to be the recipient of the other party’s generosity and yet the “generous” party insists anyway. Blech.

‘How about you buy me a drink instead,’ is a real line I’ve used.

Anyway, being generous in small matters is not a burden on the recipient, and if so, then imposing a burden on the recipient just for the sake of appearing generous is only a superficial appearance of generosity (or at least a form of social awkwardness).

For the record, it is generous to accept gifts, i.e. to allow people to be givers where this makes us takers. This is why I, for example, never question a woman who wants to pay. Reciprocating is better, e.g. buying something in return. Anyway, the less is said about money and paying, the better.

You’re reading too much into what I said. A man invited the OP or they were set up by someone else, in which case it falls to the man to pick up the tab by default. A woman who wishes to distance herself from the man, for example when making a point of declining his advances, may wish to split it. However, by allowing him to to finish the big man routine she spares him from embarrassment and allows him to preserve some dignity, just as if she e.g. borrowed his umbrella or took his jacket from him on a cold or rainy evening despite having only just turned down his advances.

And there is nothing more to read into here, nor any need to patronize me, if I really need to be so direct.

My suggestion for the future:

First dates go somewhere where you can walk around: a zoo, a museum, somewhere where you can walk around and point to things and talk about them. That way if there is a lag in the conversation you are surrounded by “conversation starters.” Sitting across the table from someone is tremendous pressure for both people because all you have is each other.

That is also my preference. In part because I like women who like to walk. Bonus if they can keep up the pace.

 

[EasterJoy]

How do you feel about credit card roulette? One of my favorite games

Do you want to get the check? Get the server to one side and warn him or her that your dinner partner is not always the world’s best tipper. You will get the check. Your companion won’t be able to get to it without a pole vault.

(I’ve only done that once, but it was to my mother. The part about her being a bad tipper was absolutely true, though. )

 

[Burt_Macklin]

How do you feel about credit card roulette? One of my favorite games

I prefer to play where the first person to check their phone pays. At the beginning of the meal everyone places their phones face down on the table and the first person to touch theirs has to pay.

 

[Kelfa28]

I prefer to play where the first person to check their phone pays. At the beginning of the meal everyone places their phones face down on the table and the first person to touch theirs has to pay.

Brilliant!

For me, it’s usually been the guy who picks up the check…especially if we’ve been to dinner.

I think there was only one or two times where I paid and it was because I did the asking out.
Whoever does the asking does the paying IMHO.

With my two longest relationships…my husband being one and a boyfriend I dated long term in my early twenties…they both always insisted on paying…even if I suggested the date idea. It was something they wanted to do I guess.

Obviously once my husband and I grew more comfortable with each other…around the time we got engaged…we would swap off checks…sometimes my check would arrive sooner then his.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

a couple of observations from the field:
If I invite, I pay. If she insists, okay I won’t stop her.
If she invites, she should cover it. If she doesn’t and there was no understanding prior to the date, I’ll consider that a yellow flag.

Not just blind dates, but any first date: dinner is a very bad idea for that occasion. So is a movie. They’re not good ideas for the second date either. Have to remember what the dates are about: they’re not about how much one can spend, they’re about the connection the couple can make.

Dinner is a bad idea as it’s easy to spend too much money and it can get awkward quickly if it is apparent there is no chemistry but the dinner still has a ways to go before fussing over the check. As in the OP’s situation. I’ve been in that guy’s shoes. A movie is bad as the couple spends a couple of hours watching it and not talking to each other. Not to mention movies aren’t a cheap date anymore unless one finds the cheap theater with $5 matinees for movies that have been out 4 to 6 months and I wouldn’t try those unless I had been with someone awhile and figured out they were okay for an outing.

 

[Anglewannabe]

So after a few minutes of chatting, you just decided you were done with him? And that was that? (I am a bit curious as to what shut you off…was it his looks, his desire to chat with you, the stories he shared? ).

Well, I will be honest and say he was not good looking. However, there was more to it than that. He was being just a bit too caring and too considerate. He was talking as if we knew each other for a long time. He seemed like he was trying to get into my personal space way to fast. He seemed needy

I still feel that you have an obligation to carry on a conversation with guy beyond answering direct questions. (not saying you have to share deep personal details, but one can have a conversation with someone without doing so.)

Well, when a man is obviously not interested in a friendly conversation and is being too deep and it is a first date, in the heat of the moment nerves take over and it is hard to just keep making friendly conversation

She didn’t want to lead him on and felt all sorts of tremendous pressure, so she just set him aside as though he didn’t exist and would deal with it as it came. I explained that her behavior was unacceptable, she accepted his invitation and this was his prom too. This super nice guy deserved better. We had many many many conversations trying to get her to see that she didn’t need to “like” him romantically to have a fun date,** nor does having a fun date mean that she is necessarily leading him on.** She doesn’t have to like him, but she has to respect him and his feelings. He isn’t some object that she can cast aside b/c she doesn’t know how.or want to deal with it.

Explain that to the boy who had a fun date with your daughter and enjoyed it so much he plans on asking her out again because she had a fun time too. All the while your daughter knows she will not accept a future date. I don’t know what it is like for men, but a genuine woman who is not interested in a man can not put on an act. And the more the man tries the more annoying he gets until the girl explodes at the guy. No man deserves to be out with a girl who is definitely not interested

Anyway, I see some similarities here, and coupled with the fact that most posters were saying how everything was handled ok… I felt compelled to jump in.

I am glad you jumped in. After all that is what a public forum is about. However, I need more practical advice, like not going to dinner on a first date etc

 

[The_Old_Maid]

=Zzyzx Road wrote:

Dinner is a bad idea …

Although your reasons are good, I disagree that dinner is always a bad idea. You can learn a lot about people by the way they treat the serving person (wait staff). If they kiss up to you but mistreat a poorly paid worker who cannot fight back, that’s a Red Alert Deal Breaker. That’s how they’ll treat you when they’ve won you and don’t have to try anymore. That’s when taking care of them becomes “just your job.” Avoid such people, unless you too want to be metaphorically tipped with pennies.

 

[Xantippe]

How do you feel about credit card roulette? One of my favorite games

Just looked it up.

I think I like a little more predictability in my financial life.

 

[Xantippe]

I prefer to play where the first person to check their phone pays. At the beginning of the meal everyone places their phones face down on the table and the first person to touch theirs has to pay.

Genius!

 

[Xantippe]

Not just blind dates, but any first date: dinner is a very bad idea for that occasion. So is a movie. They’re not good ideas for the second date either. Have to remember what the dates are about: they’re not about how much one can spend, they’re about the connection the couple can make.

**A few notes and quibbles:

1. If you know something about the other person and you know you have a lot to talk about, dinner can be great. However, as Anglewannabe has discovered, if you have nothing to talk about and nothing in common, dinner is absolutely deadly. Whether or not dinner is a good idea depends on whether the date itself is a good idea. As I’ve mentioned before, the first guy that ever took me out to dinner turned out to be my future husband and that was our first date (although we had talked before).
2. BEL had some really good advice (I think from her mom) about doing a movie first, then dinner.
3. There are a lot of good, inexpensive ethnic eateries. I personally am a huge fan of Indian lunch buffets–not very expensive, great food, and often quite elegant for the price. Thai restaurants are also often relatively inexpensive, with good, interesting food and great atmosphere.
4. It’s easier to make a connection with a full tummy. Food is a very important component of hospitality and socializing. Also, one thing that dinner buys you is time. If you have a lot to talk about, dinner is perfect. It’s not possible to have a long date (or really any social get-together) without food of some kind. Your date is either going to have to eat with you or leave and eat without you. A growling tummy is not a good situation for getting to know somebody. (Have you ever been at a social event where you really, really wanted to order in a pizza–so terrible!)
5. Eating together is one of the fundamental activities that serious couples and families do together. So, eating together is good practice for family life. And what better way to find out if the person you are seeing is incapable of getting through dinner without checking their phone?
   **
   Dinner is a bad idea as it’s easy to spend too much money and it can get awkward quickly if it is apparent there is no chemistry but the dinner still has a ways to go before fussing over the check. As in the OP’s situation. I’ve been in that guy’s shoes. A movie is bad as the couple spends a couple of hours watching it and not talking to each other. Not to mention movies aren’t a cheap date anymore unless one finds the cheap theater with $5 matinees for movies that have been out 4 to 6 months and I wouldn’t try those unless I had been with someone awhile and figured out they were okay for an outing.

We have a $2 theater in town–50 cents on Tuesdays, I believe.

Isn’t the cheap theater a pretty good test of your date’s mettle and your compatibility with her?

Follow it up with dinner or dessert and you’ve got a very reasonable date.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Explain that to the boy who had a fun date with your daughter and enjoyed it so much he plans on asking her out again because she had a fun time too. All the while your daughter knows she will not accept a future date. I don’t know what it is like for men, but a genuine woman who is not interested in a man can not put on an act. And the more the man tries the more annoying he gets until the girl explodes at the guy. No man deserves to be out with a girl who is definitely not interested

Well I think there are ways that one can be honest, yet not too abrupt or unkind. ie. you could thank him for the dinner and the conversation, you could say it was nice to meet him and get to know him (this is honest in the sense that you are glad you learned enough about him to decide not to pursue him further), but that you’re not feeling the spark, and it seems not to be a love connection, but thanks anyway. or something like that. I admit, I’m not good at that sort of thing - and haven’t actually gone on any blind dates. But my sister has done a lot of online dating, and has told me that she has had that sort of an amicable conversation many times. If you’re not very socially comfortable to begin with, it would help to come up with a line ahead of time, that expresses “this was nice/I appreciate the evening/but I’m not interested in more” in a kind way.

And of course, as the others have said, it seems clear (in hindsight) that a better first meeting, especially for a person who is not a social butterfly/chatterbox type, would be short and have diversions of other people or interesting surroundings. But if you do agree to go to dinner, you do pretty much agree to attempt friendly conversation for the duration of the dinner, and assuming the date is not being obnoxious or aggressive, it would be good to do your best to be reasonably friendly whether or not you still feel like getting to know the person any more. That’s not leading on, but just being polite and following social norms.