Has anyone suggested that Judas was a ‘criminal’ or a ‘psychopath’?
Except when they repent. Which Judas did. (His problem was that, having repented, he nevertheless continued to despair.)
Sit in a church some day while confession is going on. You’ll see evidence of a whole lot of repenting going on…
Yes. The Gospel writer who said he was a thief.
There is curve though regarding to what extent human beings are compromised in their moral life. I feel I have no reason to assume Judas, if he existed, was on the “normal” end of the curve. I tend towards psychopathy/criminality, not that he was an average Joe Schmo.
Yes, but again, most people who are hardened criminals don’t go to confession. And I have such people in mind.
However the ones that do tend to go all-in and repent spectacularly. I’ve got a few saints in mind who weren’t exactly the holiest of people before their conversions
That is true, and I brought that up with “born again” Christians. However, barring such a change of heart, I gather not many commit suicide because of “regret.” I don’t see any evidence that Judas became “born again” after he sold Jesus and, if he did, why did he despair? ESPECIALLY given how he would have KNOWN much, much, MUCH more about the “Gospel of Grace” than almost anyone else at that time!However the ones that do tend to go all-in and repent spectacularly. I’ve got a few saints in mind who weren’t exactly the holiest of people before their conversions
That’s meaningless… Even Jesus has more to do than merely Exist…
Sure, but it reads like “he was always a bum, anyway.” It has the ring of someone who’s hurt and therefore says something that proceeds from that pain, rather than from a rational point of view. YMMV.
Well, that’s not really the way the narrative plays out, is it? In only one of the Gospels do we see Judas asking “what will you give me if I hand him over to you?”. In all the others, only after they accept Judas’ proposal do they make an offer of payment. So, the majority opinion of the evangelists is that Judas did this out of a desire to hand Jesus over, and not from the desire to make a quick buck.
From what I hear, from priests and deacons who minister to prisons… you might be surprised.
Except that, if you’ve despaired to the point where you think that hell is inevitable, then suicide doesn’t seem like a worse option for you. “Truly mad”, indeed, but nevertheless, sometimes people do find themselves in the throes of such a depression…
I don’t “feel sorry” for Judas. He wasn’t forced to steal from the poor. If he thought Our Lord needed to be turned in, he could have done it for free. Instead, he took money for an act of treachery.
Not sure I understand, but I guess I’ll look into it some more. You’ve given me some homework.
Let’s see what those other reasons could be then.
Um, …ok. This seems weird… Just how much knowledge did Judas have as to the identity and mission of Jesus? He was with him three years, right? Witnessed at least some of his miracles, right? Why did he want an uprising? Did he believe Jesus was God and was going to eventually judge and restore the universe? If not, then what did he know that was Christian. Was Judas… impatient? Are believers nowadays impatient, that God is taking too long? Do believers think they can force God’s hand?
He had as much knowledge as the other eleven apostles. And, the Gospels are pretty clear that they were pretty confused, too. The whole point of the Gospels is that you have no understanding who Jesus is, until you understand His passion, death, and resurrection !!!
Many wanted an uprising against the Romans, as a fulfillment of OT prophecy.
Not all did. That realization is a post-resurrection reality. We can, all too easily, project our own 21st century understanding on the characters in the Gospels!
Absolutely. As an example, look at the Christians who are attempting to force the end of the world by virtue of getting all Jews to resettle in the Promised Land. What? You thought they were doing that out of a general sense of altruism?
The thought is that he either wanted to push Jesus to put it in high gear, or decided that Jesus wasn’t gonna do it at all.
We, as Christians, don’t believe in ‘destiny’, as such, at least in terms of “things you must do which you have no control over.”
It seems to me Jesus was a rather poor teacher then. Then again, I suppose nowadays there are holy men who talk in riddles. So, ok, God even when he incarnates reveals himself by degrees. I suppose that’s legit… doesn’t speak to my own sense of rationality and fairness at all though.
It seems more rational to trust in God’s own timing though, isn’t it?
Alright, well, I’m not sure what to make of that.
It seems absurd to me that we could “force” God’s hand. I would have assumed the earliest apostles would have at least had a basic understanding of God’s “sovereignty/power.” But alas, I suppose they were not systematic theologians.Absolutely. As an example, look at the Christians who are attempting to force the end of the world by virtue of getting all Jews to resettle in the Promised Land. What? You thought they were doing that out of a general sense of altruism?
It still seems to me, that if Judas was spiritually receptive in any sense to Jesus or God or higher ideals, he would have trusted Jesus instead of following his own wishes/whims/desires. If he really WASN’T a mere criminal or psychopath… So, it still doesn’t make much sense to me. Why was an uprising all that important to him? Why not trust Jesus’ plan, especially on the strength of visible miracles?
Alright.
As they say, “it’s a poor workman who blames his tools.” I know plenty of students who failed classes taught by brilliant and effective teachers.
Yeah? How’s that working out for you these days, as you sit at home waiting for the pandemic to fizzle out? Me, I can more profoundly understand “impatience with God’s timing”, given the frustrating events of this year…
It’s funny. When I teach Scripture, one common reaction is “yeah, yeah, yeah… I know all that! What new info do you have for me?” We think (reasonably or otherwise) that we know it all, with respect to God’s Word, and it colors our approach to it…
Fishermen, tax collectors, common folk.
I know plenty of folks who are neither ‘criminals’ nor ‘psychopaths’ who are followers of Jesus (and therefore, at least putatively “receptive in any sense to Jesus”), and who follow their own wishes/whims/desires. Not all that out-of-the-ordinary…
How simple would it have been for Jesus to say “I am God’s Son - and therefore, God Himself”! Maybe not the subtlest thing to say, but, straightforward. How many people could fail that question, then?
I control what I can. If I was a teacher, I would give my students a good dose of reality - what they can and can’t control…
True enough.
If Jesus didn’t bother to delineate even basic facts about the faith though, then why should the Church bother with catechizing young boys and girls? Do we have more authority than Jesus did? Are the facts even that important?
Yeah… they weren’t in the presence of “Love itself” though… All I can really say is, I was under the impression that the “author of truth” was a greater source of… truth.
That would have changed the dynamic of His whole ministry. So… your problem isn’t with Judas so much as with Jesus?
God is at fault when we sin. Got it.
Well… He did. To the apostles, generally, not the crowds. After His death and resurrection, that’s when He told the apostles to teach what He had taught them. So… that’s why we do!
LOL! Well, that’s what I get for trying…
I’m not saying he should have proclaimed to one and all in a loud, bold, vociferous voice that “I AM God” but… to his inner circle, to his most trusted lieutenants, why not make such a disclosure? What reason was there not to? At any rate, from what I know of the Gospels, he performed great miracles AND claimed to forgive sins, and so acted in the person of God… Surely there must have been at least rumors that he was a powerful being… perhaps Yahweh himself appearing as a human… In that, I don’t see why he couldn’t disclose that he was God… At any rate, I think even 12 uneducated commoners, if they were devout Jews, over three, years, together, could at least arrive at the speculation that, yes, given ALL this he may as well be God incarnate…
…And yet he couldn’t get the most basic, fundamental fact off the ground… that he was God - to his closest confidants… Even though he forgave sins, called the Jewish God his Father (not ‘our’ Father) and acted in the person of God for all intents and purposes, at least as recorded in the Gospels…
Nor should you. Jesus is the Messiah - Sent from God…
Umm… remember the Transfiguration? That was pretty much “disclosure to the inner circle”, no?
No. That would’ve been considered blasphemy and, in fact, that’s precisely what the high priest accused Him of at the trial!
They would have stoned him, or at least, written him off as a lunatic. When you hear contemporary stories of folks who pop up and declare themselves to be God, what’s your impression?
“12 devout Jews” would never come up with that conclusion. At best, they’d say “hmm… Messiah?”, but never “hmm… G-d himself?”
Again: He did. The Transfiguration.
The ironic thing is… I’ve gone straight to those very same Gospels to refute the claims of the things you say Jesus didn’t do!
