I feel so sad and moved with pity for judas

[Dimmesdale]

Umm… remember the Transfiguration? That was pretty much “disclosure to the inner circle”, no?

Wait a minute, I thought you said the apostles were “confused” and that included Judas. That they didn’t have a clear conception of who Jesus was. Did Jesus reveal himself as God only to Peter, James and John?

No. That would’ve been considered blasphemy and, in fact, that’s precisely what the high priest accused Him of at the trial!

The rumors were that he was a reincarnation of John the Baptist, or Elijah having returned as prophesied, or a teacher/healer the likes of which they had never seen. They would have never guessed “God”. In fact, when Peter says it (in Mt 16), Jesus admits that this didn’t come from Peter’s mind, but that it came from God’s inspiration.

But Jesus did blaspheme, time and time again in the Gospels: claiming to be able to forgive sins, etc. The Pharisees try to stone him multiple times even before he gets tried ultimately. IF those accounts are true and not embellishments.

I don’t see why you have to limit the rumor mill, or be able to know exhaustively everything that could have been circulating about this Jesus character. After all, you weren’t there, and only have these writings to go by… I’m not so sure “God’s inspiration” is necessary to come to a conclusion that Jesus is God or a divine being, but that’s my opinion.

They would have stoned him, or at least, written him off as a lunatic. When you hear contemporary stories of folks who pop up and declare themselves to be God, what’s your impression?

Granted, the masses wouldn’t have understood. Still, if Jesus really did feed 5,000, or raise the dead, or do anything remotely as spectacular… the rumor mill I think would be chock full of activity…

Generally people who assert themselves as God are mentally ill or egotistical. But the metaphysical approach of some Eastern systems of thought say that we are all God appearing in diverse forms. Some disciples of gurus in India report vivid experience of “oneness” or “unity” with all life. That they and God are one and the same. This is sometimes referred to as the “Advaitic” experience. Maybe in the Powerful, Awe-Inspiring Presence of Jesus, his disciples got this Advaitic vision? If Non-dualism is true (which on some level I believe it is), then the metaphysic is universal, and includes India as well as Palestine.

 

[Gorgias]

Wait a minute, I thought you said the apostles were “confused” and that included Judas.

They were.

Did Jesus reveal himself as God only to Peter, James and John?

Look at the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 17:

Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him. Then Peter said to Jesus in reply, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud cast a shadow over them, then from the cloud came a voice that said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” When the disciples heard this, they fell prostrate and were very much afraid. But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and do not be afraid.” And when the disciples raised their eyes, they saw no one else but Jesus alone.

As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, “Do not tell the vision to anyone until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

But Jesus did blaspheme, time and time again in the Gospels: claiming to be able to forgive sins, etc. The Pharisees try to stone him multiple times even before he gets tried ultimately.

Imagine, then, what the result would have been if Jesus had proclaimed Himself ‘God’ loudly, clearly, and at every turn. Would he have been able to minister as He did, or would He have been met with a hail of stones everywhere He went?

After all, you weren’t there, and only have these writings to go by…

Eyewitness writings.

Still, if Jesus really did feed 5,000, or raise the dead, or do anything remotely as spectacular… the rumor mill I think would be chock full of activity…

It was !! The word was definitely getting around about Jesus – why do you think they greeted Him as the “promised Messiah” upon His entry into Jerusalem for Passover?

 

[Dimmesdale]

They were.

So they didn’t know he was God… Ok.

Why do they call him ‘Lord’ then?:

“Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, “Do not tell the vision to anyone until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”

So, only Peter, James and John knew he was God…

Imagine, then, what the result would have been if Jesus had proclaimed Himself ‘God’ loudly, clearly, and at every turn. Would he have been able to minister as He did, or would He have been met with a hail of stones everywhere He went?

I’m not saying he did this or he had to do this. I’m saying, only to his intimate disciples.

Eyewitness writings.

I listened to a lecture by one Richard Carrier, who says that the structure of writing in the Gospels is highly complex. The work of highly educated men, not mere fishermen. But, moving on.

It was !! The word was definitely getting around about Jesus – why do you think they greeted Him as the “promised Messiah” upon His entry into Jerusalem for Passover?

Maybe it was sufficient to tear down many Jews’ very preconceptions of reality as they knew it.

 

[Gorgias]

So they didn’t know he was God… Ok.

I think that they were in the process of understanding exactly who he was. The transfiguration gave them a strong clue.

You’ve got to step out of your head on this one. We, in the 21st century, have no problem with the concepts of an incarnate God, of a Triune God, of a Messiah who is God, of a Messiah who is not coming to restore earthly order. (Mind you, we might disagree on whether we believe in these things, but the notion of the concept itself? Easy peasy. I say to you “Jesus the incarnate Son of God”, and you say “yup; got it. Move on.”)

But, for the Jews of the 1st century AD, each of these were categories that they hadn’t even conceived of. So… “triune God”? Nope. “God incarnate”? Nope. “Messiah who isn’t anything like what we expect”? Nope.

So… when you ask “why didn’t they recognize who Jesus was?”, you have to remember that he was nothing like anything they had ever been exposed to before. Before they could ask “is he the second person of the Trinity?”, they had to be able to wrap their heads around the notion of a “Trinity”. Before they could ask “is he the incarnate God?”, they had to wrap their heads around the notion of an “incarnate God.” And so on, and so on.

So, before you dismiss Jesus for not popping up one day and saying “hey guys! I’m the messiah – but not the messiah you expect! I’m also the incarnate second person of God the Trinity!”… you have to recognize that this would have the same effect as someone sitting down next to you and saying “hi! I’m the mega-chromatic water-person-dolphin from the continent of transpangaea, present in quad-gender-divine-incarnation!” I’m guessing that your reaction wouldn’t be “umm… ok!!!”

Why do they call him ‘Lord’ then?:

“Lord” was a common title of respect. Then again, if you just saw someone transfigure into an angelic-like form, and have a conversation with dead folks from your history books who were likewise transfigured, I’m thinking you’d look at him and say, "excuse me? Sir? "

So, only Peter, James and John knew he was God…

Only they had been witnesses to this experience, which would help them later to understand that He is God.

I listened to a lecture by one Richard Carrier, who says that the structure of writing in the Gospels is highly complex. The work of highly educated men, not mere fishermen.

Notice that the fishermen weren’t the scribes of their Gospels – literate ghost-writers were. That they structured the words they heard in ways that make sense in their particular contexts… well, that’s just reasonable!

Maybe it was sufficient to tear down many Jews’ very preconceptions of reality as they knew it.

Eventually, but not really until after His resurrection.

 

[Dimmesdale]

You’ve got to step out of your head on this one. We, in the 21st century, have no problem with the concepts of an incarnate God, of a Triune God, of a Messiah who is God, of a Messiah who is not coming to restore earthly order. (Mind you, we might disagree on whether we believe in these things, but the notion of the concept itself? Easy peasy. I say to you “Jesus the incarnate Son of God”, and you say “yup; got it. Move on.”)

Frankly, I don’t think it would have been that hard for Jesus to teach basic theological facts about himself and his true relationship to God… Children are catechized, after all. They may not know all the theological nuances, but they can understand some things well enough by, say, their third or fourth year of grade school. So no, it wouldn’t have been very difficult.

Jesus was then not being completely straightforward about his position. He didn’t reveal himself fully then, because he chose not to, even though he had a coterie of loyal followers who saw “something” about him. A lesser man would be called negligent for not telling his student about an important subject matter. But God doesn’t reveal everything unless he chooses. Ok, fair enough. This line of thought makes more sense to me at least.

Notice that the fishermen weren’t the scribes of their Gospels – literate ghost-writers were. That they structured the words they heard in ways that make sense in their particular contexts… well, that’s just reasonable!

I don’t believe everything depicted in the Gospels is factual. But that’s me.

Eventually, but not really until after His resurrection.

Maybe you can address what I wrote about the Advaitic experience then?

 

[Gorgias]

Frankly, I don’t think it would have been that hard for Jesus to teach basic theological facts about himself and his true relationship to God

He did, though. I keep showing you where these things are, in the Gospels. Have you read the Gospels, or are you just hearing this for the first time? I’m getting somewhat confused that you seem to be unaware that the things you say Jesus didn’t do are things He actually did do, and which are described in the Gospels.

Maybe you can address what I wrote about the Advaitic experience then?

It really didn’t resonate with me. I don’t believe that “we are all God”. Nevertheless, that they feel a “oneness” with creation doesn’t mean that they’re God. Could the apostles have had such experiences? That would have been wholly outside their frame of reference, so it’s doubtful. More common – and reported more than once in the Gospels – is the experience of Christ that makes a person realize the difference between Him and the person, and results in the comment “Lord, depart from me, a sinner.” It is a feeling of difference from Jesus, not identity with him, that seems characteristic. “Who is this man?”, they ask themselves.

 

[Vico]

By no means! God’s plan incorporates free will.

Including that free will of the angels (stars):
Revelation 12

4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. …
9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

2 Peter 2 (false prophets)

3 And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced against them long ago, has not been idle, and their destruction is not asleep. 4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he saved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood on a world of the ungodly; 6 and if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example of what is coming to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by their lawless deeds that he saw and heard), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment 10 —especially those who indulge their flesh in depraved lust, and who despise authority.

 

[TominAdelaide]

St Anthony of Padua in his “Sunday Sermons” interprets Luke 5:37 as referring to Judas:

If the new wine is put into an old bottle, the bottle will be broken and the wine spilt. (cf. Lk 5:37)

The new wine is the Holy Spirit, the old bottle is the former sinful life. That is what happened to the unrepentant traitor Judas, who was hung by the neck like a bottle and burst in the midst of his belly, so that his bowels, which had drunk dry the poison of avarice, were spilt upon the ground (cf. Acts 1:18).

 

[Dimmesdale]

He did, though. I keep showing you where these things are, in the Gospels. Have you read the Gospels, or are you just hearing this for the first time? I’m getting somewhat confused that you seem to be unaware that the things you say Jesus didn’t do are things He actually did do, and which are described in the Gospels.

By “basic theological facts” I am referring, among other things, that he was God… Like I said, if 7 and 8 year olds can get it, why not 12 intimate adult disciples?

It really didn’t resonate with me. I don’t believe that “we are all God”. Nevertheless, that they feel a “oneness” with creation doesn’t mean that they’re God. Could the apostles have had such experiences? That would have been wholly outside their frame of reference, so it’s doubtful. More common – and reported more than once in the Gospels – is the experience of Christ that makes a person realize the difference between Him and the person, and results in the comment “Lord, depart from me, a sinner.” It is a feeling of difference from Jesus, not identity with him, that seems characteristic. “Who is this man?”, they ask themselves.

I will only say one thing and not belabor the point: if the Advaitic metaphysic is true, and all is One, then it doesn’t matter if it is India or Palestine: the Reality is universal and across the board. Such a mystical experience can be had here, there and on Mars.

I think I’ll let this topic die, I’ve said enough.

 

[Gorgias]

Like I said, if 7 and 8 year olds can get it, why not 12 intimate adult disciples?

To steal a quote from the Bible: “in the fullness of time…”. That is, in the fullness of time, God’s plan was to send Jesus to us, and in the fullness of time, make His message known to us.

I guarantee you: your “seven- and eight-year-olds” understand it because you, who are teaching it, do. And, because you’re teaching it to them as truth. Pick a field that you’re not familiar with – calculus, maybe, or quantum mechanics, or bluegrass banjo picking. Then, try teaching that thing which you yourself don’t grasp to a seven-year-old. I guarantee you, it’s not going to go well. You have to bootstrap any body of knowledge, or else you’ll get nowhere. Your complaint isn’t really that this isn’t true – it’s just that you don’t like Jesus’ approach to bootstrapping.

I will only say one thing and not belabor the point: if the Advaitic metaphysic is true, and all is One, then it doesn’t matter if it is India or Palestine: the Reality is universal and across the board. Such a mystical experience can be had here, there and on Mars.

Fair enough. That’s a huge “if”, though, no? And, on what basis do you claim the truth of that assertion?

 

[EndTimes]

But Jesus did blaspheme, time and time again in the Gospels: claiming to be able to forgive sins, etc.

No.

Since as Son of God - Jesus does have the power to Forgive Sins
and of which He Underscored that power by immediately healing that man
in the presence of those Jews who were disobedient to Moses and God
and who came up with that False Charge of “Blasphemy!”,
and who in turn went on to plan His Death…