I feel this is wrong?

[John_Lilburne]

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“287. If Communion from the chalice is carried out by intinction, each communicant, holding a communion-plate under the chin, approaches the priest, who holds a vessel with the sacred particles, a minister standing at his side and holding the chalice. The priest takes a host, dips it partly into the chalice and, showing it, says, Corpus et Sanguis Christi (The Body and Blood of Christ). The communicant responds, Amen, receives the Sacrament in the mouth from the priest, and then withdraws.”

Here is the description of the normal manner of receiving Communion, from the GIRM:

“161. If Communion is given only under the species of bread, the priest raises the host slightly and shows it to each, saying, Corpus Christi (The Body of Christ). The communicant replies, Amen, and receives the Sacrament either on the tongue or, where this is allowed and if the communicant so chooses, in the hand. As soon as the communicant receives the host, he or she consumes it entirely.”

In both cases the Communion Minister is described as “the priest”. But lay people can also be the communion ministers. From the GIRM:

“100. In the absence of an instituted acolyte, lay ministers may be deputed to serve at the altar and assist the priest and the deacon; they may carry the cross, the candles, the thurible, the bread, the wine, and the water, and they may also be deputed to distribute Holy Communion as extraordinary ministers.”

So my understanding is that lay people can distribute communion, including by intinction, as extraordinary ministers.

From the GIRM:
“249. … The concelebrants approach the altar one after another, genuflect, and take a particle, dip it partly into the chalice, and, holding a purificator under their chin, consume the intincted particle. They then return to their places as at the beginning of Mass.”

Here the people receiving Communion dip the consecrated host into the Precious Blood. They are concelebrants, ordained priests, so this is permitted.

From the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum (at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#_ftnref235 ):

“[104.] The communicant must not be permitted to intinct the host himself in the chalice, nor to receive the intincted host in the hand. As for the host to be used for the intinction, it should be made of valid matter, also consecrated; it is altogether forbidden to use non-consecrated bread or other matter.”

 

[acarlson]

I remember receiving communion in this way once a long time ago, probably when I was in high school. I didn’t know this was wrong. Thank you Rudolfo for creating this thread and thanks acarlson for the reference about it, it’s been very informative for me. Now I can be aware of it, and if it ever happens again, I know what to do.

You’re very welcome

 

[TradionalWay]

Thanks everybody, now I have reference as well against this action

 

[fall_fox]

It’s called receiving by intinction. The practice is perfectly all right; however, the priest was wrong to (a) force you to receive that way once you made it clear you wanted to receive on the tongue, and (b) require the laity to intinct (dip) the Host - the priest should have done that himself.

The ONLY way that intinction is permissable is when the Priest or a EMHC does it, dip the host in the cup, then place it on the communicant’s tongue. What this priest is really forcing you to do is called self communication. It is wrong - wrong - wrong ! ! ! It would be difficult, in a normal Catholic Church to do this properly, since a Minister of Comunion will have the ciborium an someone else would have the chalice. If you were to go one line to a site that sells religeous goods, you can find a special Intinction Set, it is a combination of a ciborium and a chalice. It is an open ciborium with a small cup in the middle. The Priest or an EMHC would take the Consicrated Host then he would then dip it in the cup of the Blood of Christ, then place the dipped Holt on the communicant’s tongue.
Actualy, as a EMCH myself, I would be in favor if the Church went to this form. I have had people stick the Consicrated Host in their pocket and we had to go after him to have him consume the Host. We have found Consicrated Hosts on the floor in the back of church. In the book rack in the pews and so on. I truely believe that Communion in the hand is a tremendous mistake the church did, not only because of what I just said, but also, for other problems. How many times have you seen a person, after receiving in the hand and consumed the Host, did they check thier hand to see if there are any particles left behind. You know, that particle has the total Body and Blood of Jesus as much as anyother size of Host. I don’t think the Church will ever go to intinction though. The Church says that would deprive a person from receiving in the hand. It seem to me that a communicant could indicate that they wanted to receive the Host in the hand, of course they would then have to consume it immediately. Receiving in the hand has gone on for what, 30 years or so, we have received Communion on the tongue only for centuries. We as devout Catholics should feel better if those problems could be eliminated.

 

[benedictgal]

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“287. If Communion from the chalice is carried out by intinction, each communicant, holding a communion-plate under the chin, approaches the priest, who holds a vessel with the sacred particles, a minister standing at his side and holding the chalice. The priest takes a host, dips it partly into the chalice and, showing it, says, Corpus et Sanguis Christi (The Body and Blood of Christ). The communicant responds, Amen, receives the Sacrament in the mouth from the priest, and then withdraws.”

Here is the description of the normal manner of receiving Communion, from the GIRM:

“161. If Communion is given only under the species of bread, the priest raises the host slightly and shows it to each, saying, Corpus Christi (The Body of Christ). The communicant replies, Amen, and receives the Sacrament either on the tongue or, where this is allowed and if the communicant so chooses, in the hand. As soon as the communicant receives the host, he or she consumes it entirely.”

In both cases the Communion Minister is described as “the priest”. But lay people can also be the communion ministers. From the GIRM:

“100. In the absence of an instituted acolyte, lay ministers may be deputed to serve at the altar and assist the priest and the deacon; they may carry the cross, the candles, the thurible, the bread, the wine, and the water, and they may also be deputed to distribute Holy Communion as extraordinary ministers.”

So my understanding is that lay people can distribute communion, including by intinction, as extraordinary ministers.

From the GIRM:
“249. … The concelebrants approach the altar one after another, genuflect, and take a particle, dip it partly into the chalice, and, holding a purificator under their chin, consume the intincted particle. They then return to their places as at the beginning of Mass.”

Here the people receiving Communion dip the consecrated host into the Precious Blood. They are concelebrants, ordained priests, so this is permitted.

From the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum (at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#_ftnref235 ):

“[104.] The communicant must not be permitted to intinct the host himself in the chalice, nor to receive the intincted host in the hand. As for the host to be used for the intinction, it should be made of valid matter, also consecrated; it is altogether forbidden to use non-consecrated bread or other matter.”

John, EMHCs cannot distribute Holy Communion via intinction. That is reserved solely for the sacerdos (priest/bishop). When I contacted the CDWDS abou this matter, I was told that EMHCs cannot do this. Furthermore, the Norms for Distribution of Holy Communion in the United States also state that the priest is the one who does this. If an EMHC is used, all this person can do is hold the chalice, but that is it.

Even the revised GIRM for the United States does not make any allowances for EMHCs to distribute via intinction. The reference is still for the priest.

Therefore, what the OP witnessed is a serious abuse.

 

[John_Lilburne]

John, EMHCs cannot distribute Holy Communion via intinction. That is reserved solely for the sacerdos (priest/bishop). When I contacted the CDWDS abou this matter, I was told that EMHCs cannot do this. Furthermore, the Norms for Distribution of Holy Communion in the United States also state that the priest is the one who does this. If an EMHC is used, all this person can do is hold the chalice, but that is it.

Even the revised GIRM for the United States does not make any allowances for EMHCs to distribute via intinction. The reference is still for the priest.

Therefore, what the OP witnessed is a serious abuse.

GIRM 100 allows it. A long discussion of this is at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=243899 . What official documentation forbids it?

 

[puzzleannie]

I went to a local mass here, first time I saw the priest would give the host to the people, and then the people need to dunk the host in the wine and then only they can eat it. When I try to receive the host on my tongue, he simply refused to, I held out my hand and he showed me that I have to dip the host as well. I feel this is wrong? Is it?

this is called intinction, which is licit when the priest or bishop is the sole minister and himself dips the host in wine and administers it, always on the tongue. The proper utensils made for the purpose should be used to minimize accidents. No one else, not even a deacon may administer by intinction. It is gravely illicit for the communicant to do what you describe here. Report it to the bishop if it is something you actually witnessed, not just heard about.

there is in another older thread on this forum a letter from the Vatican office of worship that answers the specific question about which minister may administer this way. The GIRM already cited makes it clear the ordinary minister is the priest, and no where in the permission to use extraordinary ministers is intinction covered. I am sure somebody will uncover that reference before I can find it myself.

 

[benedictgal]

GIRM 100 allows it. A long discussion of this is at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=243899 . What official documentation forbids it?

John, they can distribute either the Body or the Precious Blood, but not both. The fact that in the references to intinction, only the priest is specifically mentioned should indicate to you that it falls to only the priest (sacerdos) to intinct. The norm specifically states that:

1. If Communion from the chalice is carried out by intinction, each communicant, holding a Communion-plate under the mouth, approaches the Priest who holds a vessel with the sacred particles, with a minister standing at his side and holding the chalice. The Priest takes a host, intincts it partly in the chalice and, showing it, says, The Body and Blood of Christ. The communicant replies, Amen, receives the Sacrament in the mouth from the Priest, and then withdraws.

The GIRM is very specific, John. This was the same passage that the official from the CDWDS quoted to me.

 

[benedictgal]

The ONLY way that intinction is permissable is when the Priest or a EMHC does it, dip the host in the cup, then place it on the communicant’s tongue. What this priest is really forcing you to do is called self communication. It is wrong - wrong - wrong ! ! ! It would be difficult, in a normal Catholic Church to do this properly, since a Minister of Comunion will have the ciborium an someone else would have the chalice. If you were to go one line to a site that sells religeous goods, you can find a special Intinction Set, it is a combination of a ciborium and a chalice. It is an open ciborium with a small cup in the middle. The Priest or an EMHC would take the Consicrated Host then he would then dip it in the cup of the Blood of Christ, then place the dipped Holt on the communicant’s tongue.

Actualy, as a EMCH myself, I would be in favor if the Church went to this form. I have had people stick the Consicrated Host in their pocket and we had to go after him to have him consume the Host. We have found Consicrated Hosts on the floor in the back of church. In the book rack in the pews and so on. I truely believe that Communion in the hand is a tremendous mistake the church did, not only because of what I just said, but also, for other problems. How many times have you seen a person, after receiving in the hand and consumed the Host, did they check thier hand to see if there are any particles left behind. You know, that particle has the total Body and Blood of Jesus as much as anyother size of Host. I don’t think the Church will ever go to intinction though. The Church says that would deprive a person from receiving in the hand. It seem to me that a communicant could indicate that they wanted to receive the Host in the hand, of course they would then have to consume it immediately. Receiving in the hand has gone on for what, 30 years or so, we have received Communion on the tongue only for centuries. We as devout Catholics should feel better if those problems could be eliminated.

An EMHC cannot administer via intinction. This is only done by the priest/bishop.

Earlier in my reply to another poster, I cited the 2011 Revised GIRM. Here is what it states in Latin:

1. Si Communio calicis fit per intinctionem, communicandus, patinam sub ore tenens, accedit ad sacerdotem, qui calicem tenet et ad cuius latus sistit minister qui vas cum sacris particulis sustinet. Sacerdos hostiam accipit, partem eius in calicem intingit et eam ostendendo dicit: Corpus et Sanguis Christi; communicandus respondet: Amen, a sacerdote Sacramentum ore recipit, ac postea recedit.

The minister is the one who holds the chalice, but, it is the priest/bishop who actually administers Holy Communion via intinction.

The way it was explained to me was that this was a “priestly” action, the mingling of the Sacred Body and Blood. That is why not even a deacon is to administer via intinction. The reason why I raised this question to the CDWDS was that one of the parishes here was doing this with EMHCs and I was asked by one of the priests to contact the CDWDS regarding this matter.

Now, regarding the matter of Communion in the Hand, this can certainly be revoked. According to Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[92.] Although each of the faithful always has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, at his choice,178 if any communicant should wish to receive the Sacrament in the hand, in areas where the Bishops’ Conference with the recognitio of the Apostolic See has given permission, the sacred host is to be administered to him or her. However, special care should be taken to ensure that the host is consumed by the communicant in the presence of the minister, so that no one goes away carrying the Eucharistic species in his hand. If there is a risk of profanation, then Holy Communion should not be given in the hand to thefaithful.179

Thus, if the situation that you witnessed persists, it may not be a bad idea to have the pastor discuss this matter with the bishop. I know that there have been cases where parishes have suspended CITH during the latter part of October due to tragic activity associated with Halloween.

 

[ciero]

---

What you have told me is NOT VALID OR LICIT…Rome and the bishops said tha dipping the host in the wine IS NOT PERMISSIBLE,.

I would write to your bishop and tell him

JESUS I TRUST IN YOU

jr

I believe intinction by the communicant himself is not permitted in the USA. I have seen it done on a number of occasions at the Vatican. I asked a Liturgist about this and he thought it is permitted in other countries. As the OP is from Malasia I would ASK the bishop before complaining or reporting the priest.

Things are not always done the same around the world.

 

[benedictgal]

I believe intinction by the communicant himself is not permitted in the USA. I have seen it done on a number of occasions at the Vatican. I asked a Liturgist about this and he thought it is permitted in other countries. As the OP is from Malasia I would ASK the bishop before complaining or reporting the priest.

Things are not always done the same around the world.

Self-intinction is not allowed. In fact, Redemptionis Sacramentum, which is a universal, authoritative document issued by the Holy See, specifically states that this is not to be done. In fact, the Prefect Emeritus, Francis Cardinal Arinze, stated that this was forbidden.

104. The communicant must not be permitted to intinct the host himself in the chalice, nor to receive the intincted host in the hand. As for the host to be used for the intinction, it should be made of valid matter, also consecrated; it is altogether forbidden to use non-consecrated bread or other matter.

Thus, this is not allowed.

 

[John_Lilburne]

John, they can distribute either the Body or the Precious Blood, but not both. The fact that in the references to intinction, only the priest is specifically mentioned should indicate to you that it falls to only the priest (sacerdos) to intinct. The norm specifically states that:
Quote:
287. If Communion from the chalice is carried out by intinction, each communicant, holding a Communion-plate under the mouth, approaches the Priest who holds a vessel with the sacred particles, with a minister standing at his side and holding the chalice. The Priest takes a host, intincts it partly in the chalice and, showing it, says, The Body and Blood of Christ. The communicant replies, Amen, receives the Sacrament in the mouth from the Priest, and then withdraws.

The GIRM is very specific, John. This was the same passage that the official from the CDWDS quoted to me.

You could quote the same, as I did above, in #21:
“161. If Communion is given only under the species of bread, the priest raises the host slightly and shows it to each, saying, Corpus Christi (The Body of Christ). The communicant replies, Amen, and receives the Sacrament either on the tongue or, where this is allowed and if the communicant so chooses, in the hand. As soon as the communicant receives the host, he or she consumes it entirely.”

The way you interpret GIRM 286 you would interpret GIRM 161 as only allowing the priest (sacerdos) to distribute Communion given only under the species of bread.

So I think you need an official document (explaining the theology or the instructions for Latin rite) that intinction is a forbidden method of distributing communion for lay people and deacons. I am fairly sure you do not have that.

 

[benedictgal]

You could quote the same, as I did above, in #21:
“161. If Communion is given only under the species of bread, the priest raises the host slightly and shows it to each, saying, Corpus Christi (The Body of Christ). The communicant replies, Amen, and receives the Sacrament either on the tongue or, where this is allowed and if the communicant so chooses, in the hand. As soon as the communicant receives the host, he or she consumes it entirely.”

The way you interpret GIRM 286 you would interpret GIRM 161 as only allowing the priest (sacerdos) to distribute Communion given only under the species of bread.

So I think you need an official document (explaining the theology or the instructions for Latin rite) that intinction is a forbidden method of distributing communion for lay people and deacons. I am fairly sure you do not have that.

John, when I asked the official from the CDWDS, he told me that the citations from the GIRM (No. 284) and our own norms clearly indicate that intinction is reserved to the priest/bishop. When I asked him if he could send an official response, he said that it would merely restate what he told me. If this explanation was good enough for the local priest who asked me, why can you not see it?

Look at the Latin GIRM. No. 287 does not state diacono or minister; it clearly states “sacerdos”. This is the part that you seem to be missing.

 

[silicasandra]

I am glad I came across this thread! Yesterday I was out of town and attended a different church than usual and witnessed a woman in line ahead of me self-communicate via intinction. I wasn’t familiar with the guidelines for Communion via intinction, though I figured that she was not supposed to dip the host herself. But the priest didn’t bat an eye at it, nor did the EMHC holding the chalice (there were maybe 30 people there, at a very tiny church - as each person came up to receive, the priest addressed them by name, and then said “The Body of Christ.”) So my guess is that this is what this woman does on a regular basis and the priest is aware of it, though of course I could be (and hopefully am) mistaken.

Unfortunately, there were a lot of other abuses there as well, by the priest as well as the rest of the laity. Very, very nice people (very curious about the stranger in their midst as well, I might add), but I won’t be attending Mass there again.

 

[Monica4316]

I went to a local mass here, first time I saw the priest would give the host to the people, and then the people need to dunk the host in the wine and then only they can eat it. When I try to receive the host on my tongue, he simply refused to, I held out my hand and he showed me that I have to dip the host as well. I feel this is wrong? Is it?

yes it was incorrect and so was inctinction, - which is what it’s called if you dip the Host into the Precious Blood. This is not allowed in the Latin church… the Eastern churches (Catholic or Orthodox) often use intinction, but the lay person never ever dips the Host, it’s already in the chalice with the Precious Blood and the priest gives it to the person on a spoon.

In the Latin rite church, - you have the choice of receiving the Host on your tongue, and priests are not allowed to refuse to give Communion in this way to anyone. It’s still the regular, ordinary way to receive Communion.

God bless