I fell in love with Christ in a Protestant church

[JonNC]

And on that point, the eastern lay apologists and western ones still disagree and debate. According to the Greek Eccumenical Patriarch (at the very least) the only thing keeping us apart is further discussion regarding the Chair of Peter, that’s about it.

The historical (actual) similarities between the two lungs of the faith, is probably why the early reformers when they sought the eastern church in alliance against the west found none.

And that is the only thing that has kept you apart for 1,000 years??? If one peruses some of the threads here, there seems to be a great many differences. But that said, it would be a point of great celebration were East and West to unify again. I pray for the day.

Jon

 

[crazzeto]

No argument. While we are justified by Grace through faith in Christ, we must have an actice, saving faith. Quite Lutheran.

neither do we, as it is part of our sanctification

Thank you for recognizing that distinction in Lutheran teaching vis a vis others who do not properly understand sola fide.

Certainly, works and laws are important.

As long as you fully recognized that we are not saved by faith alone, then I’d say we are quite on the right page… But of course if you believe as I have stated, then by definition you do not subscribe to Sola Fide and thus do not subscribe to Luthers doctrine of Justification.

Sola scriptura is not personal interpretation. Sola scriptura, in fact holds all teachers and teaching accountable to scripture. Lutherans do not practice personal interpretation, but are held to scripture and the Lutheran Confessions, which rightly reflect scripture.

I’ve read the latest doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which was explained by a particular Lutheran Apologist… I do forget his name, so sorry on that account… If I remember correctly, this particular individual spent quite a bit of time admonishing his fellow protestant’s on the very grounds you point out here, but interestingly… At the end of his discourse he accuses his fellow protestants of making “the same mistakes Catholics make, by making the final authority something other than Gods words” defined in his article previously as being the Bible it’s self.

I submit, a Lutheran apologist has no basis on which to make this kind of argument. If the final authority is the Bible it’s self, as this appologist asserts quite emphatically then your evangelical (for instance) are not wrong to preach as they do. They are preaching much the same you are, that the Bible is the final authority in matters of faith and morals, I would submit that they understand better Sola Fide than Lutherans do.

This is why for Catholic’s, we’re just a little more upfront and admit that the Church it’s self is and always have been the final authority for believers, because only she is the authentic interpreter of Scripture and Tradition. For the Church it’s self, then this is another matter and I think where some Lutherans have gotten confused, then Scripture interpreted under the guidence of the Holy Spirit in light of the constant teaching of the Church (tradition) is indeed the final authority. So I guess you might argue that for the Magesterium of the CC, then you have Sola Scriptura, for them… But we don’t make the mistake of applying this to all the rest of us, I don’t have any such authority.

Moses could not act as a free agent, because he was bound by scripture - the ten commandments. And you are exactly right that the Spirit guides the church’s understanding of scripture.

Jon

You forget, God talked directly to Moses, more over further you forget that Moses had a grand oral tradition (some of which would become the Pentiuch written by his own hand) to guide him. That is to say, Moses used scripture, with the guidence of the Holy Spirit and the constant teaching of Jewish tradition to guide him. Does that sound familiar?

 

[JonNC]

=crazzeto;6596926]As long as you fully recognized that we are not saved by faith alone, then I’d say we are quite on the right page… But of course if you believe as I have stated, then by definition you do not subscribe to Sola Fide and thus do not subscribe to Luthers doctrine of Justification.

This is the Lutheran Doctrine of Justification!!
Actually, we are saved by the actions of Christ - His suffering, death and resurrection. When Lutherans talk about faith alone, it is narrowly applied to how we come to justification. We cannot, in anyway, on our own, choose to come to Him. By grace alone are we justified, through faith, and not by works. That is sola fide.
But sola fide is not the exclusion of sanctification. In fact, Luther says there is no justification without sanctification. In our sanctification we must respond to Grace, if we have saving faith. We must grow in grace by confession and absolution, receiving the sacraments, hearing the word, as well as respond to Grace by acting on His commands, to care for the least of His children, and do good works. Good works are not for us, but for our fellow man.

I’ve read the latest doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which was explained by a particular Lutheran Apologist… I do forget his name, so sorry on that account… If I remember correctly, this particular individual spent quite a bit of time admonishing his fellow protestant’s on the very grounds you point out here, but interestingly… At the end of his discourse he accuses his fellow protestants of making “the same mistakes Catholics make, by making the final authority something other than Gods words” defined in his article previously as being the Bible it’s self.

Remembering that sola scriptura is a practice, not a doctrine, what the pastor is trying to say is that Catholic teaching puts Tradition (the teachings of the Magisterium and the Pope) on a par with scripture. In a similar way, evangelicals who practice personal interpretation are putting their interpretation on a par with scripture.
The final norm is scripture, but Lutherans rely on the early councils, the creeds, and the confessions. Martin Chemnitz tells us we must also rely on the early fathers. But even all these things are subject to scripture.

I submit, a Lutheran apologist has no basis on which to make this kind of argument. If the final authority is the Bible it’s self, as this appologist asserts quite emphatically then your evangelical (for instance) are not wrong to preach as they do. They are preaching much the same you are, that the Bible is the final authority in matters of faith and morals, I would submit that they understand better Sola Fide than Lutherans do.

Did you mean they understand sola scriptura better than Lutherans do?
Except that they depend on their own interpretation. I can’t do that and remain Lutheran, any more than you can do that and remain Catholic. Of course, in the end, we all make these decisions: one could say I choose to submit, in a sense, to the Confessions, while you choose to submit to the Magisterium, each of us believing that that to which we submit is a right reflection of scripture and the Gospel.

This is why for Catholic’s, we’re just a little more upfront and admit that the Church it’s self is and always have been the final authority for believers, because only she is the authentic interpreter of Scripture and Tradition. For the Church it’s self, then this is another matter and I think where some Lutherans have gotten confused, then Scripture interpreted under the guidence of the Holy Spirit in light of the constant teaching of the Church (tradition) is indeed the final authority. So I guess you might argue that for the Magesterium of the CC, then you have Sola Scriptura, for them… But we don’t make the mistake of applying this to all the rest of us, I don’t have any such authority.

Neither do I.

You say that Rome is the authentic interpreter, and the Orthodox, who also rely on Tradition and scripture, say they are.

Jon

 

[crazzeto]

John -

I’ll get with you tomorrow, I’m studying up to teach my catechism class tomorrow directly after work. But I will say this, what you describe really isn’t in line with the written statements of Luther, and more over there never would have been a disagreement resulting in schism if Luther really taught the postions you’re discussing here… Unless of course you care to believe that Luther really just thought that he was the legitimate pope anyway… There might be a case for him believing that was the case (I jest… I jest… somewhat).

 

[dnu]

This may be odd, but I really came to understand Jesus as “the Christ” and Jesus as “the Saviour” while visiting and studying Mormonism.

Odd, I know. Later I found out the oddities of Mormonism and was able to happily walk away from it, which eventually led me here.

 

[JonNC]

John -

I’ll get with you tomorrow, I’m studying up to teach my catechism class tomorrow directly after work. But I will say this, what you describe really isn’t in line with the written statements of Luther, and more over there never would have been a disagreement resulting in schism if Luther really taught the postions you’re discussing here… ).

I hope your class is a blessing to those present.
Remember that Luther and the other Lutheran reformers were responding to abuses of the time, which probably approached semi-pelagian. Note I said abuses.

But here is a good description of Lutheran beliefs regarding faith and works.

[bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.](http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.)

There is also an interesting article by Jimmy Akin regarding Lutheran and Catholic views on justification somewhere hereon CAF.

Unless of course you care to believe that Luther really just thought that he was the legitimate pope anyway… There might be a case for him believing that was the case (I jest… I jest… somewhat

Nah. My understanding is there was talk of offering Luther the position of Cardinal to get him to shut up, but the thought was he’d never accept it.
Plus, he had such low regard for the papacy of his time, I can’t imagine him thinking himself one (I jest, I jest, too)

Jon

 

[crazzeto]

@JonNC,

Thanks for the blessings and understandings, class was decent enough considering it was the last teaching class of the year. Pizza Hut for the kids next tuesday!

I can appriciate what you’re saying about Luther responding to abuses at that time, but here’s the deal, Luther’s response was in the end inappropirate and did in fact end up defining all new doctrines. “Justified by faith, with out all works of all laws” is what was taught, you can see the results in Luthers own writings towards the end of his life. I think he referred to his own home town as “Soddom” after the new justification had be fully and effectivly preached.

Now it sounds like at least some modern Lutherans now reject this particular teaching. That’s great, though if you insist on calling justified by grace, with our free response of an active faith working through love then I see it as inappropraite for that to be called “Sola Fide”. You can’t define Sola Fide that narrowly, if you try you’ve defiend the doctrine so narrowly that it ceases to be that doctrine. Point in fact, this is the exact doctrine of justification the Catholic Church now in it’s third millenium has always taught.

Regarding Sola Scriptura, again I see some movement in some Lutheran quarters to return to a more Catholic approch. The problem is, the new approch as defined in a apologetic document published online by a Lutheran apologist (I’m sorry, I forget his name but I"m sure you know who I’m talking about) ends up being self contradictory as I pointed out. You can’t have your cake and eat it too on this one. Either the earthly authority is the bible, or the earthly authority is the infallible interpreter of the bible. We Catholics acknowlege, there must be an infallible interpreter of the bible.

The same was true in Old Testament times with Moses. Moses was the magesterium, Moses was the infallible interpreter of Gods Word, the complete Gods Word in the form of 10 stone tablets, a living tradition then several thousands years old already through the guidence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[activeCatholic]

I realized I loved Christ on the way to Sears long ago. I never grasped the concept and I was thinking about loving the Lord and than it hit me I do love the Lord, but I never “fell in love” with Him. Falling in love for me implies a romantic thing and that is not what Loving the Lord is about.

 

[JonNC]

@JonNC,

Thanks for the blessings and understandings, class was decent enough considering it was the last teaching class of the year. Pizza Hut for the kids next tuesday!

I can appriciate what you’re saying about Luther responding to abuses at that time, but here’s the deal, Luther’s response was in the end inappropirate and did in fact end up defining all new doctrines. “Justified by faith, with out all works of all laws” is what was taught, you can see the results in Luthers own writings towards the end of his life. I think he referred to his own home town as “Soddom” after the new justification had be fully and effectivly preached.

Now it sounds like at least some modern Lutherans now reject this particular teaching. That’s great, though if you insist on calling justified by grace, with our free response of an active faith working through love then I see it as inappropraite for that to be called “Sola Fide”. You can’t define Sola Fide that narrowly, if you try you’ve defiend the doctrine so narrowly that it ceases to be that doctrine. Point in fact, this is the exact doctrine of justification the Catholic Church now in it’s third millenium has always taught.

Regarding Sola Scriptura, again I see some movement in some Lutheran quarters to return to a more Catholic approch. The problem is, the new approch as defined in a apologetic document published online by a Lutheran apologist (I’m sorry, I forget his name but I"m sure you know who I’m talking about) ends up being self contradictory as I pointed out. You can’t have your cake and eat it too on this one. Either the earthly authority is the bible, or the earthly authority is the infallible interpreter of the bible. We Catholics acknowlege, there must be an infallible interpreter of the bible.

The same was true in Old Testament times with Moses. Moses was the magesterium, Moses was the infallible interpreter of Gods Word, the complete Gods Word in the form of 10 stone tablets, a living tradition then several thousands years old already through the guidence of the Holy Spirit.

Pizza and catechetical class are a great mix.

Every item I linked to is classic Lutheran teaching. It isn’t new or revised. The Formula of Concord was complete by 1580. Sola Fide as Lutherans describe in in the Book of Concord, and the role of works in Sanctification is what Lutheran have believed all along.
Perhaps the middle ground here is that Lutherans and Catholics, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, are seeing each other in a clearer, less polemical way, thanks also to the recent popes including Benedict XVI.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

20 days till sweet freedom, Jon, how 'bout you?

Pizza and catechetical class are a great mix.

Every item I linked to is classic Lutheran teaching. It isn’t new or revised. The Formula of Concord was complete by 1580. Sola Fide as Lutherans describe in in the Book of Concord, and the role of works in Sanctification is what Lutheran have believed all along.
Perhaps the middle ground here is that Lutherans and Catholics, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, are seeing each other in a clearer, less polemical way, thanks also to the recent popes including Benedict XVI.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

20 days till sweet freedom, Jon, how 'bout you?

June 14 the kids are done. Lots of test cramming coming up.
Hamels was finally Hamels last night. Oh, and thank Skipper Bochy for pulling Lincecom last week.

Jon

 

[crazzeto]

20 days till sweet freedom, Jon, how 'bout you?

20 days? Are you two regular school teachers or does your religious ed go on way longer the ours?

 

[JonNC]

20 days? Are you two regular school teachers or does your religious ed go on way longer the ours?

Regular school teachers, crazzeto, if there is such a thing. Gurney in California (6th grade), me in NC (4th grade).

Jon

 

[crazzeto]

Regular school teachers, crazzeto, if there is such a thing. Gurney in California (6th grade), me in NC (4th grade).

Jon

thought about doing it, honestly glad I didn’t… Not enough pay, and honestly I’d get my self sued and fired pretty quick by mentioning it’s Christmas around december 25th

 

[JonNC]

thought about doing it, honestly glad I didn’t… Not enough pay, and honestly I’d get my self sued and fired pretty quick by mentioning it’s Christmas around december 25th

Actually, that depends, in part, on where you live, and if the forces against freedom (ACLU) are strong. There is even an afterschool Bible Club at our elementary. The population here is majority Baptist and Methodist. So, it is still “Christmas Break” here.
I don’t openly advertize my faith, nor do I hide it. If kids ask, I tell them what I believe, appropriate for 4th graders.
But I understand the low pay thing. My daughter is currently attending a Lutheran college in the upper mid-west, studying to be a math/secondary ed teacher. When done next year, she’ll be certified public and Lutheran school. The first is a vow of poverty, the second is choosing to be destitute.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

We took two out of three, turkey! I like how my Giants look this year. Zito is absolutely stellar, hasn’t lost a game yet and now has four pitches in his arsenal, Lincecum well duh…is Lincecum (!!), Sanchez when he settles down looks ok, Cain looked awesome last night only allowing two walks all night long and not permitting any hits otherwise, Sandoval is looking sweet, Rowand is finally hitting and hitting well, Uribe is fine, we’re top of NL West, I’m a happy camper. I just hope we can keep it this way. I also hope the Dodgers continue to look like bat guano out there on the field!

June 14 the kids are done. Lots of test cramming coming up.
Hamels was finally Hamels last night. Oh, and thank Skipper Bochy for pulling Lincecom last week.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Yeah, and if Bochy leave Lincecum in, you probably sweep. Its funny the way you talk about the Dodgers. Its the way Philladelphia fans talk about NY teams. I’ve always said my dislike for NY teams - all NY teams - borders on the irrational. And yes, I consider the NJ Devils a NY team.
Jon

We took two out of three, turkey! I like how my Giants look this year. Zito is absolutely stellar, hasn’t lost a game yet and now has four pitches in his arsenal, Lincecum well duh…is Lincecum (!!), Sanchez when he settles down looks ok, Cain looked awesome last night only allowing two walks all night long and not permitting any hits otherwise, Sandoval is looking sweet, Rowand is finally hitting and hitting well, Uribe is fine, we’re top of NL West, I’m a happy camper. I just hope we can keep it this way. I also hope the Dodgers continue to look like bat guano out there on the field!