I find it difficult to believe that Protestants will be sent to Hell.

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On another thread, there was a question of how one would react if someone was to say that Protestantism and Catholicism were “essentially the same”: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7761730#post7761730

My own personal view as of now is that God doesn’t distinguish much between a devout Catholic and a devout Protestant, than say a devout Catholic and a devout Hindu. I have always thought that both ultimately lead to the Truth (whereas other religions, in my opinion, don’t really lead to the Truth). Personally, I strongly believe that Catholicism is the Truth. Do not get me wrong. But I find it difficult to believe that God will send a “good” Protestant to Hell.

Now apparently, there was an implicit remark later that I’m now a heretic, which personally angers/saddens me quite deeply (and I’m very slow to anger), so can someone here please offer a succinct explanation of Catholic soteriology.

*On a sidenote, this thread is directed to rational people. I’m a little bit aware that the internet attracts radicals of all stripes and colours :rolleyes:

I’m all ears :p. If a good response is offered to this thread, I’ll recant the views I’ve expressed 😉

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
 
I guess it comes down to “**what ** saves”. Does truth save? And is truth mere fact or something more? Or does faith save? And is faith mere"belief-in" or something more? “What saves” often refers to an attainable, practicable human virtue or spiritual attribute. But it can also refer to a divine category such as Grace or Providence.

Moving into the divine, most religions say it is not so much **what **saves, but rather, who saves. “Who” spelled with a capital “W”.

Most religions say that a personal God (personal because personhood emanates from such a Source and because God sometimes manifests as, and in, persons) is the chief saving factor. We are saved because God wills it.

There are “degrees of cooperation” in many salvation schemas. Human beings are permitted, encouraged, and/or required, to enter into the divine work of salvation.

Having said that - and to return to your question - perhaps truth and knowledge of the truth are not essential to salvation, at least for those systems who view salvation as resulting from divine proposal and human disposal. God offers salvation; human beings cooperate with the divine salvation plan. Union with the divine will expressed in compassionate action is much more influential in salvation than mere holding to “the Truth”.

If that is so, then only God can decide who is ultimately saved. I would presume that a Hindu or a Catholic or a Jew who had complete “knowledge of the Truth” while simultaneously ignoring or abusing his/her fellows, could not be said to be cooperating with the divine salvation plan’s demand of compassion.

We all know of people who believe all the right things, but are still petty and mean. Recall the simple, anonymous woman who washed Jesus’ feet, and who had no knowledge of the Law. Jesus said that much had been forgiven her because she had loved much. Apparently Jesus thought that she was fully cooperating in the salvation plan, even though she did not possess any high spiritual or doctrinal “Truth”.

This is not quite the same as saying that all paths lead to God, but it is certainly to grant Spirit its own right to “blow where it will”, to grant God the ultimate right to save “out of sight”, within the deep mystery of the human person. It is to avoid the mistake of pinning “Automatic Salvation”, or denying it, on any religious system. And it is to practice charity and humility toward those outside of our own particular system.
 
I am not very “theological” but I will try to say what I believe. I don’t believe all Protestants will go to Hell. I don’t believe all Catholics will go to Heaven. But in the end it doesn’t matter what I believe about other people’s final destination. Each of us is an individual to God, not a label. Only He knows our hearts. I have found that I’m better off if I spend more time thinking about the condition of my own heart and less time trying to guess what God will do about everyone else.

Finally, I don’t believe God “sends” anyone to Hell. The people in Hell are there through their own free choice. If they do not love God, why would they want to be in Heaven?
 
Finally, I don’t believe God “sends” anyone to Hell. The people in Hell are there through their own free choice. If they do not love God, why would they want to be in Heaven?
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Then what about Protestants, devout and striving to see God in Heaven. At what point do they give all that up and choose to go to Hell? Some denominations love God but see Catholicism as Satanic…so what happens to those people?
 
I have never heard any sane Catholics say “all Protestants will go to hell”.

Summing it up quickly, The Church doesn’t teach that. It’s absurd to think that way.
 
Jesus didn’t just die to make Catholics… so, I don’t believe Protestants will be sent to hell.🙂
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
On another thread, there was a question of how one would react if someone was to say that Protestantism and Catholicism were “essentially the same”: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7761730#post7761730

My own personal view as of now is that God doesn’t distinguish much between a devout Catholic and a devout Protestant, than say a devout Catholic and a devout Hindu. I have always thought that both ultimately lead to the Truth (whereas other religions, in my opinion, don’t really lead to the Truth). Personally, I strongly believe that Catholicism is the Truth. Do not get me wrong. But I find it difficult to believe that God will send a “good” Protestant to Hell.

Now apparently, there was an implicit remark later that I’m now a heretic, which personally angers/saddens me quite deeply (and I’m very slow to anger), so can someone here please offer a succinct explanation of Catholic soteriology.

*On a sidenote, this thread is directed to rational people. I’m a little bit aware that the internet attracts radicals of all stripes and colours :rolleyes:

I’m all ears :p. If a good response is offered to this thread, I’ll recant the views I’ve expressed 😉

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
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God doesn’t send anyone to hell. God respects our free will even if we choose to deliberatly turn our back on him and therefore choose hell. C.S Lewis said it best when he said that the “damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked from the inside”.

The Position of the Catholic Church is that those who seek truth and live good lives but who do not know that Catholicism is the fullness of Gods revelation to humanity(technically known as invincible ignorance) have the possibility of attaining heaven.

There was a group in the 1950s which stated vehemently that only baptised Catholics would be saved, they were excommunicated. I mention this only in response to those who would call you a heretic.

God Bless
 
Distortions come in all shapes and sizes. You’ve been rightly angered by one of them. But the idea that “just trying your best” is good enough for heaven is equally warped!

In a nutshell, God created man good, but man fell to temptation and has had fatally tragic flaws ever since (original sin). Left to our own devices, we God doesn’t NEED to “send” us to hell. We build it ourselves by the sins we commit. Jesus (God the Son) came to accept on his own person the consequences of all the sin of humanity and to, in the process, redeem us and make us eligible to be restored to communion with God. Jesus gave us many teachings and ALSO left us a reliable source of the Grace we need to sustain us on that journey to sanctity (the Sacraments and the Church he left to safeguard them). That source resides in the Catholic Church exclusively. (Don’t rage yet!)

Imagine that I tell you of a Village where the ONLY source of safe drinking water is a faucet in the town square that feeds a pool there. Now imagine further that crevises in the soil under the pool allow some of that water to well up out of the ground some distance away and a passerby drank from it and did NOT get sick. That fact STILL does not change the fact that the only source of safe drinking water provided for that town is the faucet, even if some of it ends up getting to people in ways not originally intended.

God is perfectly merciful and we humans are tremendously good at mucking things up. I personally don’t think that if we imperfect catholics have done a lousy job of proclaiming the gospel such that somebody out there rejects it (or even part of it) because what he perceived was merely a distortion of the truth then God has His ways of sorting those things out. But the fact remains that it’s dangerous to drink out of mysterious mud puddles, even if other people before you have gotten away with it. Best to drink from the source the Savior intended.
 
The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of baptism in any Christian ecclesial body that baptizes using proper form and matter–the form being trinitarian and the matter water. Thus the Church considers non-Catholic Christians in imperfect union with it. Protestants’ salvation (as for Catholics and all others) depends on what each person did with the grace God gave him and how culpable he is for his sins. As for non-Christians, see this citation from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Possible salvation of non-Christians: #s 846-848.
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“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
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“A certain sect, which you surely know, has unjustly arrogated to itself the name of philosophy, and has aroused from the ashes the disorderly ranks of practically every error. Under the gentle appearance of piety and liberality this sect professes what they call tolerance or indifferentism. It preaches that not only in civil affairs, which is not Our concern here, but also in religion, God has given every individual a wide freedom to embrace and adopt without danger to his salvation whatever sect or opinion appeals to him on the basis of his private judgment. The apostle Paul warns us against the impiety of these madmen” (Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum, n. 12).

“Now We consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained” (Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos, n. 13).

“It is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace” (Ven. Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, n. 7).

“There is little difference between this hideous form of indifference and the devilish system of indifference between the different religions. This belief embraces people who have strayed from the truth, who are enemies of the true faith and forget their own salvation, and who teach contradictory beliefs without firm doctrine. They make no distinction between the different creeds, agree with everybody, and maintain that the haven of eternal salvation is open to sectarians of any religion” (Ven. Pius IX, Singulari Quidem, n. 3).

To summarize, anyone who says that it doesn’t matter what religion someone belongs to – be it Hinduism or Protestantism – is in error. This error is known as indifferentism.

Anyone who says that someone who in no way belongs to the Catholic Church can be saved is also in error. This error denies the well-known dogma, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. Yes, non-Catholics can be saved if, at the end of their lives, they belong in some manner to the Catholic Church. We should not assume (nor presume) that this is an easy thing for them, because they lack so many of the ordinary means of salvation, viz. the sacraments.

A person must, upon his dying breath, be enlightened with divine faith and have a sincere and perfect charity*, along with a desire to do God’s will and all that He requires for salvation. We shouldn’t nonchalantly assume that all, or even almost all, Protestants receive such extraordinary grace at the end of their lives, and for this reason we must work to convert them to the Catholic Church, the one and only ark of salvation, outside of which no one is saved.
  • Many, if not most, Protestants don’t even know what perfect charity is, while some sects are unfortunately under the false opinion that their salvation was secure at some time in the past (so there may be presumption on the part of those sects’ members).
Finally, Protestantism is a sea of heretical sects. Having some of the truths, even some of the ‘essential’ ones (Blessed Trinity, Incarnation), isn’t good enough because Christ didn’t ask us to believe in only some of what He taught us; He asked us to believe all that He taught us.
 
God gave us the Church for us to follow and thus attain heaven. Protestants are rejecting that which was given to us by God and saying “No, God, we will get to you OUR way, not your way.” Thus, while they may want to get to heaven, they are rejecting the fullness of truth and are relying on their own erroneous judgment. Their intent doesn’t take away from this fact. If people can get to heaven any way they please, what is the point of having the Catholic Church?

Note that I’m talking about willful rejection, not innocent ignorance of the truth.
 
The_Curt_Jester said:
God gave us the Church for us to follow and thus attain heaven. Protestants are rejecting that which was given to us by God and saying “No, God, we will get to you OUR way, not your way.” Thus, while they may want to get to heaven, they are rejecting the fullness of truth and are relying on their own erroneous judgment. Their intent doesn’t take away from this fact. If people can get to heaven any way they please, what is the point of having the Catholic Church?

Note that I’m talking about willful rejection, not innocent ignorance of the truth.
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Thank you, Court Jester. The Church’s teachings are very clear on this.

Those who willful reject the Church and die in mortal sin will not be in a state of sanctifying grace. Without the sacrament of confession there is nothing that can help them. Same is true for the Catholic who dies in mortal sin and refuses to go to confession.

With that said, a Protestant; baptized, innocently ignorant of the Truth and without mortal sin, could remain in a state of sanctifying grace and obtain the gift of Heaven… but I think this would be an extraordinary person.
 
the Church teaching is that Protestants can be saved if they are invinsibly ignorant… meaning that through no fault of their own, they don’t have the fullness of the truth, but they love Christ and believe in Him, - then yes they can be saved if they repent of sins. The Holy Spirit is not limited to the Sacraments, He is able to work in other ways as well, but the Sacraments are the ordinary way.

God bless
 
“The Cure of Ars once gave a medal to a Protestant who visited him, who exclaimed: “Dear sir, you have given a medal to one who is a heretic, at least I am a heretic from your point of view. But although we are not of the same religion, I hope we shall both one day be in Heaven.” The holy priest took the gentleman’s hand in his own, and giving him a look which seemed to reach his very soul, answered him, “Alas! my friend, we cannot be together in Heaven, unless we have begun to live so in this world. Death makes no change in that. As the tree falls so shall it lie. Jesus Christ has said, ‘He that does not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican.’ And He said again, ‘There shall be one fold and one shepherd,’ and He made St. Peter the chief shepherd of His flock.” Then, in a voice full of sweetness, he added, “My dear friend, there are not two ways of serving Jesus Christ; there is only one good way, and that is to serve Him as He Himself wishes to be served.” Saying this, the priest left him. But these words sank deeply into the good man’s heart, and led him to renounce the errors in which he had been brought up, and he became a fervent Catholic.”
 
Theophorus said:
God doesn’t send anyone to hell. God respects our free will even if we choose to deliberatly turn our back on him and therefore choose hell. C.S Lewis said it best when he said that the “damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked from the inside”.

The Position of the Catholic Church is that those who seek truth and live good lives but who do not know that Catholicism is the fullness of Gods revelation to humanity(technically known as invincible ignorance) have the possibility of attaining heaven.

There was a group in the 1950s which stated vehemently that only baptised Catholics would be saved, they were excommunicated. I mention this only in response to those who would call you a heretic.

God Bless
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Matthew 16:18
“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”
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The Catholic Church was built upon the rock that was Peter. If it was announced by Christ himself that Catholicism was the way, then who on Earth suddenly has the authority to begin his/her own church, but ignoring some verses for the sake of “The times”?
 
You could ask the same question about Jews, if any of them are saved. And, I think that many are saved. How many? is uncertain, but we are told that when Jesus died, he went to dwell among the dead to announce the good news and “open the gates” of heaven.

Years ago, at a Lenten bible study, a woman said that she didn’t think it was impossible even for Adofl Hitler to be saved. You know? after he took the cyanide capsule and pulled the trigger on his revolver, he may have repented. I wouldn’t wager a bet either way on that.
We’re not supposed to judge. but it would seem unlikely that Hitler is in heaven.

Unlike protestants, Jews and Muslims believe in some form of purgatory. Muslims believe that everybody goes to heaven (I’ve heard).

What we know for sure is that God is the judge.
 
Crumpy said:
You could ask the same question about Jews, if any of them are saved. And, I think that many are saved. How many? is uncertain, but we are told that when Jesus died, he went to dwell among the dead to announce the good news and “open the gates” of heaven.

Years ago, at a Lenten bible study, a woman said that she didn’t think it was impossible even for Adofl Hitler to be saved. You know? after he took the cyanide capsule and pulled the trigger on his revolver, he may have repented. I wouldn’t wager a bet either way on that.
We’re not supposed to judge. but it would seem unlikely that Hitler is in heaven.

Unlike protestants, Jews and Muslims believe in some form of purgatory. Muslims believe that everybody goes to heaven (I’ve heard).

What we know for sure is that God is the judge.
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No, Muslims believe that only Muslims will go to Heaven. Not everyone. That’s a lovely Islamic apologist lie.

youtube.com/watch?v=kNw4krSHmj8

This is a video from a class in Germany, of all places, on how the Koran is the correct book, and how the Torah and the Bible are not.
 
MontChevalier said:
Matthew 16:18

The Catholic Church was built upon the rock that was Peter. If it was announced by Christ himself that Catholicism was the way, then who on Earth suddenly has the authority to begin his/her own church, but ignoring some verses for the sake of “The times”?
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The church is not the way but the instrument. Only Christ is the way.

But that is not the same as saying only Catholics wil be saved that judgement belongs only to Our Lord
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains.
 
Theophorus said:
God doesn’t send anyone to hell. God respects our free will even if we choose to deliberatly turn our back on him and therefore choose hell. C.S Lewis said it best when he said that the “damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked from the inside”.

The Position of the Catholic Church is that those who seek truth and live good lives but who do not know that Catholicism is the fullness of Gods revelation to humanity(technically known as invincible ignorance) have the possibility of attaining heaven.

There was a group in the 1950s which stated vehemently that only baptised Catholics would be saved, they were excommunicated. I mention this only in response to those who would call you a heretic.

God Bless
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I believe this is correct and well stated. I have always liked that saying “the doors of hell are locked from the inside.”
 
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