'I Forgive you...' v 'I Absolve you...'

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FrDavid96 said:
See my post in #96. Can I be of help by explaining that in different words?
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FrDavid96 said:
Once again, we need to keep in mind the distinction between “forgiveness” and “absolution.”

God can forgive us at any time, and indeed He does. Even without the Sacrament of Confession, God may/might forgive even the most grievous sins–of course, there is no limit to His mercies.

However, by Divine design, we are absolved only through the ministry of a validly ordained priest with the faculty to absolve, using the necessary and essential form for validity–ego te absolvo, I absolve you.

This thread really is not a question about forgiveness, it’s a question about absolution.
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I know I asked this earlier in this thread and you replied but I didn’t completely follow, so please excuse me for re-asking the same question slightly differently.

What is the difference between “forgive” and “absolve”? Scripture tells us that Jesus said that who ever the Apostles FORGAVE, their sins would be FORGIVEN. Given what Jesus said, why can’t a priest “forgive” sins?
 
Sir_Knight said:
I know I asked this earlier in this thread and you replied but I didn’t completely follow, so please excuse me for re-asking the same question slightly differently.

What is the difference between “forgive” and “absolve”? Scripture tells us that Jesus said that who ever the Apostles FORGAVE, their sins would be FORGIVEN. Given what Jesus said, why can’t a priest “forgive” sins?
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A priest can indeed forgive sins. He does so ministerially–as the representative of God who forgives absolutely.

The difference between forgive and absolve:

When we are forgiven, God has remitted the sin. Removed it. We all understand that word (not to be sarcastic, but no sense in repeating the definition).

Absolution is what most people don’t quite understand. Absolution is a juridic act of the Church, by which we are reconciled to the Church and returned to the normal life within the Church.

In confession, we are both forgiven and absolved. The priest does this in persona Christi. We are forgiven by God through the ministry of the priest. We are also absolved through the ministry of the priest who is the “juridic” minister of the Church.

Think of it this way. Let’s say someone is convicted of a crime. He repents. The governor grants him a pardon. From the moment the governor speaks the words or signs the paper, he has been “forgiven” by the state. But he’s still in prison until someone actually opens the doors and he can return to society. The governor’s pardon doesn’t “make” him free, it only allows him to become free. It’s similar with confession. God forgives us (grants us a pardon) but we are still not reconciled to the Church until we’ve been absolved (someone opens the door and says “you can now return to society”).

In confession, the moments of forgiveness and absolution are one-in-the-same. Although we can sometimes be forgiven by God (and indeed we often are), before the actual Sacrament, or even without it.
 
w_stewart said:
Many Catholics are not as scrupulous as you think, or are not well educated in regard to the exact words, uttered by priests (eg the difference between I absolve and I forgive in the case presented). But when they approached the confessional, they have every good intention to reconcile with God.

Would their confession be considered invalid because of the mistake (intentional or otherwise) of the priest?

So what if the soul confessed a mortal sin, did not see any mistake on the part of the priets and expected he was forgiven by God? If he died, would he be punished in hell because the confession he had, which he considered valid, was invalidated because of the mistake of the priest for using the “I forgive” instead of “I absolve”?
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Well, a confession can be invalid but the person may still be forgiven their sins because of perfect contrition.

I honestly don’t know the answer to your last question though.

Also, I should say that I think I overstepped my boundaries when I stated that the absolution would be invalid. The truth is, I do not know that for sure and I can’t make that particular judgment. It is definitely a doubtful absolution because it does not use proper form. Until this is ever clarified, if anyone ever hears “I forgive you”, they should (politely) ask for the correct absolution formula in the confessional.
 
I’m sorry to drag this thread up again, but I’m going round in circles… Having been told by a number of priests in Confession that I have scrupulous tendences (at the least), uncertainty on this issue of validity of the priest’s absolution is driving me mad. :o

I don’t know how many mortal sins I’ll have to confess again or their respective kinds because I can’t remember each time that the formula for absolution was said with alterations. I’ve sent one of the chaplains on campus an email requesting Confession in the past hour…waiting anxiously for his reply.

It’s awful that I won’t know whether his opinion on this matter is right or not. 😦
 
Does this mean that If I were not capable to finish my Act of Contrition that the confession and absolution was not valid either? When am I capable of receiving Eaucharist? Are temporal punishments and eternal punishments absolved?
 
nahbios said:
I’m sorry to drag this thread up again, but I’m going round in circles… Having been told by a number of priests in Confession that I have scrupulous tendences (at the least), uncertainty on this issue of validity of the priest’s absolution is driving me mad. :o

I don’t know how many mortal sins I’ll have to confess again or their respective kinds because I can’t remember each time that the formula for absolution was said with alterations. I’ve sent one of the chaplains on campus an email requesting Confession in the past hour…waiting anxiously for his reply.

It’s awful that I won’t know whether his opinion on this matter is right or not. 😦
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If such happened to me…I would tell the Priest…excuse me Father …you said “I forgive you” not “I absolve you”…

I would not leave it at the “I forgive you”…

I have had a elderly priest once say " I bless you"…I let him know and he said the right form then…he was just having a “senior moment”.

“I bless you” would give a blessing not absolution…

A priest should always use the formula given by the Church… but I think it can be said that one that does not change the essential meaning of the form does not usually invalidate a sacrament…but in the case of “I bless you” it would not be valid for it certainly changes the meaning!

As to the form “I forgive you” …I personally would want to follow up on that…for I have seen at least one reliable source that would say that such would be probably or certainly invalid…(such was noted by the a Theologian over at EWTN)

but then again there can be perhaps differing opinions among theologians…etc

Also if a Priest is using such a form …a call to the Bishop can be in order…for he should not be doing so…

As for your scruples…I would not drive yourself crazy here…rather if you are aware of any an absolution that was “I forgive you” …or like major change…then you can confess your mortal sins that you recall from that confession…

But if you really do not know if you have had invalid absolutions or for what sins…simply tell the Priest now of your concerns…and that you do not know …and he will help you.
 
BKulash_eski said:
Does this mean that If I were not capable to finish my Act of Contrition that the confession and absolution was not valid either? When am I capable of receiving Eaucharist? Are temporal punishments and eternal punishments absolved?
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No…the act of contrition per se is not needed for a valid absolution…in some places it is customary for the penitent not to make such in the sacrament itself. You went to confession I would imagine with contrition…the act per se is not needed for validity.
 
BKulash_eski said:
Does this mean that If I were not capable to finish my Act of Contrition that the confession and absolution was not valid either? When am I capable of receiving Eaucharist? Are temporal punishments and eternal punishments absolved?
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You can receive the Eucharist immediately–as soon as the priest pronounces the words “I absolve you”
Just to give an obvious example: let’s say you confess the sin of gluttony, and the priest gives a penance of “volunteer one hour at the soup kitchen this week” If you go to confession five minutes before Mass starts, you certainly CAN receive Communion, as long as you sincerely intend to complete the penance, even though it will be a few days before you actually complete the penance.

Did you mean penance or Act of Contrition? I thought you might have meant penance.

If you did mean Act of Contrition:
Yes, you can receive Communion. Again, as soon as the priest pronounces the Absolution, you are absolved. If you started, but didn’t complete the Act of Contrition, for some reason, then you can simply say one privately after Confession.
 
Considering there are over 30 different approved forms for the absolution, depending upon which rite the priest belongs to, and several use “I forgive you,” the issue is one of licety, not validity.
 
Aramis said:
the issue is one of licety, not validity.
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There are differing opinions on such.

And in regards to the Roman Rite…the word to be used is absolve…

(and one would have to examine each (the one I know of does say with in the prayer about forgiving…but also says I absolve you…it is a long form…))
 
Bookcat, thank you very much for your reply. I’ll offer prayers for you and yours - particularly as I believe you’ve helped me with another issue before! 😃

If my memory serves me correctly, the priest whom I emailed requesting Confession (lovely man and a good priest) graciously heard my Confession and things were okay, thank God. 🙂
 
nahbios said:
Bookcat, thank you very much for your reply. I’ll offer prayers for you and yours - particularly as I believe you’ve helped me with another issue before! 😃

If my memory serves me correctly, the priest whom I emailed requesting Confession (lovely man and a good priest) graciously heard my Confession and things were okay, thank God. 🙂
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Opps …I see the post was from Feb of 2010! I see it was the next post that brought this thread to life again 🙂

Thanks for the prayers though 🙂 …there is a particular intention I will have in mind.

Glad all is well with you and I am glad I was of help in the past 🙂
 
Not to worry - that happened to me before, as well! It’s an easy mistake to make, I guess, particularly early in the year when we’re still used to seeing 2010 in our dates.

Prayers with your intentions in mind… 👍 :gopray:
 
Aramis said:
Considering there are over 30 different approved forms for the absolution, depending upon which rite the priest belongs to, and several use “I forgive you,” the issue is one of licety, not validity.
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No. It goes directly to validity.

Absolution is a juridic act of the Church. As such, the Church decides what constitutes valid form–each Church sui iuris decides its own form. What is a valid juridic form in one Church sui iuris, is not a valid juridic form in a different Church sui iuris.

In the Latin Church, there is only one valid form of absolution, “I absolve you…” The other forms used by other Churches have no bearing on this.
 
Sir_Knight said:
*]Secondly, I would RECOMMEND that you do not receive the Eucharist until this matter is cleared up one way or the other. Remember, that in the Eucharist, we invite our God, to Whom sin is greatly offensive, to enter into our soul. If we truly love Jesus, we would not invite Him to come into a place that was filled with sin that was offensive to Him.
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You are correct, there are some who would disagree with your opinion, and I am one of them. Our notion of sacramental validity is so entrenched in the categories of matter and form, that for many the slightest deviation from the norm is overwhelmingly troublesome. Sacramental grace is not a mere causal relationship between the sign and the grace, it is an encounter between man and God. In this encounter, God approaches man, not the other way around. To deny yourself the gift of God in the Eucharist because you are worried that the priest said “forgive” instead of “absolve” is almost Pharisaical. Actually no, not almost, it is Pharisaical. It is not a magical invocation where if you get the encantation wrong the spell doesn’t work. The Christ in which I place my faith would not say, “Sorry, I know you had the right intentions but the priest said it wrong, so I’m withholding my grace from you.”

I would recommend that you trust in God, and that even if the Sacrament was “invalid” on a technicality, still trust enough that the grace has been supplied nonetheless. God is not bound by the Sacramental norms that the Church has established.

Where do we draw the line between a simple misspoken sacramental formula and one that is do deviant that all things considered it cannot even be remotely valid? I don’t know, but this is not even on the radar of invalid.
 
FrDavid96 said:
No. It goes directly to validity.

Absolution is a juridic act of the Church. As such, the Church decides what constitutes valid form–each Church sui iuris decides its own form. What is a valid juridic form in one Church sui iuris, is not a valid juridic form in a different Church sui iuris.

In the Latin Church, there is only one valid form of absolution, “I absolve you…” The other forms used by other Churches have no bearing on this.
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First, I would recommend that you use lower case "c"hurch here. There is only one "C"hurch.

Second, I do not disagree with what you say, but when we talk about validity, we are talking about a positive formulation of “certainty” in which the the faithful are assured based on the authority of the Church that the sacramental grace has been bestowed. On the other hand, “invalid” does not necessarily mean that the grace has not been bestowed. As I pointed out in my previous post, God is not bound by our sacramental formulations and can bestow his grace as he sees fit.

Who would claim that a priest who goes through his entire life mistakenly using the word “forgive” instead of “absolve” has left every penitent he has ever performed the Sacrament for in a state of mortal sin?

The reason that the Church focuses so much attention on validity is because it is the only way we can be sure. The Church does not often discuss the possibility of sacramental grace bestowed invalidly (and yes, I do believe that an invalid Sacrament can still bestow sacramental grace) because the Church as an observer cannot perceive the exact nature of the encounter between an individual(s) and God in a Sacrament performed invalidly, or in other words, not in conformity with the ritual norm.

In times of doubt, we must trust in God the loving Father, not God the Jurist.
 
I was surprised to see this thread brought up again. But I also have noted that some Eastern Churches use “I forgive You”.
 
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