I found this very interesting

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kristanl

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My friend and me often comment on the differences between our religions. Shes a Presbyterian and I am Catholic.
One day we were discussing James 2 about faith and works, and faith without works is dead. She said she didnt agree that that was what the bible was “really” talking about or something.
But I just asked her what bible she used (due to another thread on here about the NIV, and the “problems” with it) She uses the English Standard version… so I looked it up online… then looked up James 2 and looked above verse 14, I was shocked to see this : Faith Without Works Is Dead (as the TITLE!!)

Even as a Catholic, mine only says Faith and Works (NAB), so I’m just suprised someone denies something when it is pretty explicitly spelt out about what the chapter is discussing. I know people disagree on things. But she literally tells me works do not matter.

Isnt this interesting?
 
kristanl said:
Even as a Catholic, mine only says Faith and Works (NAB), so I’m just suprised someone denies something when it is pretty explicitly spelt out about what the chapter is discussing. I know people disagree on things. But she literally tells me works do not matter.

Isnt this interesting?
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Well, I think people get used to how the scriptures are preached, and they rely on the exact way thats priest and what not have taught them.

I wonder, if we could ask James himself if a persons faith is alive when he is able to work miracles through his faith. I believe he would agree that this is living faith, and of course there are plenty of miracles on both sides…
 
kristanl said:
My friend and me often comment on the differences between our religions. Shes a Presbyterian and I am Catholic.
One day we were discussing James 2 about faith and works, and faith without works is dead. She said she didnt agree that that was what the bible was “really” talking about or something.
But I just asked her what bible she used (due to another thread on here about the NIV, and the “problems” with it) She uses the English Standard version… so I looked it up online… then looked up James 2 and looked above verse 14, I was shocked to see this : Faith Without Works Is Dead (as the TITLE!!)

Even as a Catholic, mine only says Faith and Works (NAB), so I’m just suprised someone denies something when it is pretty explicitly spelt out about what the chapter is discussing. I know people disagree on things. But she literally tells me works do not matter.

Isnt this interesting?
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Not really that surprising… Luther wanted to throw out the book of James because it didn’t fit his beliefs. Not surprising that many Protestants continue to deny the teachings of this book. 😦
 
Tietjen said:
Not really that surprising… Luther wanted to throw out the book of James because it didn’t fit his beliefs. Not surprising that many Protestants continue to deny the teachings of this book. 😦
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I’ve never heard of any Protestants who deny James. Do you have any examples? Thanks.
 
kristanl said:
Well if you look up the books Luthers want to throw out, I know James and Revelation were two of them.
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Yes of course…but that’s beside the point. St. Jerome disagreed with some books that are in Scripture. So what? No Lutherans or any other Christians I know of reject James or any other books of the New Testament.

Try again? What Protestants reject the book of James (or any other book in the New Testament)?
 
diggerdomer said:
I’ve never heard of any Protestants who deny James. Do you have any examples? Thanks.
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The OP’s friend is one of MANY that I have heard about or encountered that refuse to believe the Book of James in regards to faith AND works. Instead, many Protestants disregard what James says and they opt to believe that faith alone saves. You really have never encountered this when speaking with Protestants? As James even says, even Satan believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Having faith that this is true does not save.
 
Yes like what she tells me is that what he writes there contradicts with the rest of the bible. Or she will say he is talking about once you have the faith, you need to have works. But works doesnt act on its own… I think is some way she puts it. So then I ask her what happens if you have faith but dont act like it? and she tells me that if you have faith, you will act a certain way.
 
kristanl said:
My friend and me often comment on the differences between our religions. Shes a Presbyterian and I am Catholic.
One day we were discussing James 2 about faith and works, and faith without works is dead. She said she didnt agree that that was what the bible was “really” talking about or something.
But I just asked her what bible she used (due to another thread on here about the NIV, and the “problems” with it) She uses the English Standard version… so I looked it up online… then looked up James 2 and looked above verse 14, I was shocked to see this : Faith Without Works Is Dead (as the TITLE!!)

Even as a Catholic, mine only says Faith and Works (NAB), so I’m just suprised someone denies something when it is pretty explicitly spelt out about what the chapter is discussing. I know people disagree on things. But she literally tells me works do not matter.

Isnt this interesting?
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think I know what you mean. One day, my Baptist friend and I were talking about James 2 and about works and faith. After reading James 2 himself, He smiled at me and said that it wasn’t talking about works being necessary. He even pointed at James 2:22 and was all like “see!”. He doesn’t see it defending the necessity of works.😦
 
diggerdomer said:
Yes of course…but that’s beside the point. St. Jerome disagreed with some books that are in Scripture. So what? No Lutherans or any other Christians I know of reject James or any other books of the New Testament.
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That’s really good news. When did they start believing in faith + works = salvation. I had not heard this before. Would you please cite your sources.

And for the record… I said that they continue to deny the teachings in James (IE - They reject the teaching of faith & works).
 
Tietjen said:
The OP’s friend is one of MANY that I have heard about or encountered that refuse to believe the Book of James in regards to faith AND works. Instead, many Protestants disregard what James says and they opt to believe that faith alone saves. You really have never encountered this when speaking with Protestants? As James even says, even Satan believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Having faith that this is true does not save.
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Ok, so there are not Protestants that you know of who, a priori, or as a denomination, reject James?
 
diggerdomer said:
Ok, so there are not Protestants that you know of who, a priori, or as a denomination, reject James?
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Diggerdomer, please re-read my post and stop being silly. I said “Not surprising that many Protestants continue to deny the teachings of this book.” This means that MANY in the Protestant denominations do not believe in faith + works as taught in James chapter 2. NO WHERE did I say or suggest that there is an organized conspiracy within certain Protestant denominations against the book of James. Sheesh… please save the strawman debates.
 
Tietjen said:
Diggerdomer, please re-read my post and stop being silly. I said “Not surprising that many Protestants continue to deny the teachings of this book.” This means that MANY in the Protestant denominations do not believe in faith + works as taught in James chapter 2. NO WHERE did I say or suggest that there is an organized conspiracy within certain Protestant denominations against the book of James. Sheesh… please save the strawman debates.
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I was not trying to set up strawman debates. I’ve never encountered a Protestant who denies James (my wife’s family is Lutheran by the way). I think a statement such as “many Protestants disregard James” (that’s what you said, right?) is excessive, possibly inflammatory, and certainly not conducive to Ecumenism. I know many Protestants, and none disregard James.So I was asking for more clarification on what you may have meant by what I read as a sweeping and unjustified generalization.

As far as I know, all Christians accept the same New Testament, which includes the book of James.

If you can clarify your concern, or experience, or refute my perhaps erroneous understanding, I would appreciate it.
 
diggerdomer said:
I was not trying to set up strawman debates. I’ve never encountered a Protestant who denies James (my wife’s family is Lutheran by the way). I think a statement such as “many Protestants disregard James” (that’s what you said, right?) is excessive, possibly inflammatory, and certainly not conducive to Ecumenism. I know many Protestants, and none disregard James.So I was asking for more clarification on what you may have meant by what I read as a sweeping and unjustified generalization.

As far as I know, all Christians accept the same New Testament, which includes the book of James.

If you can clarify your concern, or experience, or refute my perhaps erroneous understanding, I would appreciate it.
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I did not say that “many Protestants disregard James.” I said, now for the 3rd time,

“Not surprising that many Protestants continue to deny the TEACHINGS of this book.”

I really do not understand how you have come to the conclusion that I am saying that Protestants disregard the BOOK of James… What they disregard is the teachings found in the book of James, specifically James chapter 2, that deal with faith AND works. My statement is certainly not unjustified… MOST (not all I’m sure) Protestants do in fact believe in sola fide (and thus they disregard what James chapter 2 has to say about this). If this offends you, or if you wish to debate this with me, then let’s begin…
 
Tietjen said:
I did not say that “many Protestants disregard James.” I said, now for the 3rd time,

“Not surprising that many Protestants continue to deny the TEACHINGS of this book.”

I really do not understand how you have come to the conclusion that I am saying that Protestants disregard the BOOK of James… What they disregard is the teachings found in the book of James, specifically James chapter 2, that deal with faith AND works. My statement is certainly not unjustified… MOST (not all I’m sure) Protestants do in fact believe in sola fide (and thus they disregard what James chapter 2 has to say about this). If this offends you, or if you wish to debate this with me, then let’s begin…
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Oh come on. What’s the difference between saying someone denies the book of James vs. denying the teachings of the book of James? In my mind they are the same. Sorry if I misunderstood you. Again, I know of no Protestants who deny the book of James, meaning also they do not deny teaching of the book.

Do you have any objective evidence that any Protestant group, community, church, whatever, denies either the book of James or the teachings therein?
 
Well what he just said about FAITH ALONE. Denies that faith and works matter. So I’m pretty sure thats the majority of protestant denominations. None of them really think that the two stand alone, rather works is something that happens when you have faith, but they say someone without showing good works doesnt have true faith. I know Baptists and Presbyterians believe this, as well as the “non-denominational” denomination (so funny how that sounds lol).
 
I have some Baptist acquaintances that say “They have been saved” …that they have the Faith … and the works are not important. Does that mean they do not believe or pay attention to “The Book of James”? Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut!
God Bless,
Angel Face
 
Angel_Face said:
I have some Baptist acquaintances that say “They have been saved” …that they have the Faith … and the works are not important. Does that mean they do not believe or pay attention to “The Book of James”? Thanks for any (name removed by moderator)ut!
God Bless,
Angel Face
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All Christians share the same New Testament. If anyone knows differently please correct me.
 
If we have faith in Jesus Christ then we have compassion for our neighbor. If that is true, then we must assist our neighbor in his need. If we fail to help our neighbor in his need, then our “faith” is dead. Period. End of story.
 
diggerdomer said:
All Christians share the same New Testament. If anyone knows differently please correct me.
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You are right; we all share the same NT books…although I would argue that we do NOT share the same interpretation of these said books, especially the book of St. James.

Luther comments on St.James 2 are as follows;

"The argument is sophistical and the refutation is resolved grammatically. In the major premise, ‘faith’ ought to be placed with the word ‘justifies’ and the portion of the sentence ‘without works justifies’ is placed in a predicate periphrase and must refer to the word ‘justifies,’ not to ‘faith.’ In the minor premise, ‘without works’ is truly in the subject periphrase and refers to faith. We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a feigned faith. ‘Without works’ is ambiguous, then. For that reason this argument settles nothing. It is one thing that faith justifies without works; it is another thing that faith exists without works. [LW 34: 175-176].

This was of after his “epistle of straw” comments.
 
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