The difference is that those terrorists are simply listening to what their imams say about the Koran. Even if Islam is not inherently peaceful (no religion is) I doubt Mohammad, whatever kind of person he was, would have approved of terrorism, since it is a coward’s way of fighting. So I think there, it is a simple matter of people taking the word of men for that of God - and furthermore, without any proof that it really is the word of God. But Abraham, at least in the story in Genesis, made a compact with God wherein the Lord manifested himself as a pillar of fire and passing between a bifurcated goat (or sheep, I can’t really recall), and he also saw other miracles. So Abraham at least was not acting on blind faith, since he knew God was God by various proofs, and knew that God did not intendTonight I was talking with a friend of mine who is agnostic. He brought up the point that faith is not a reliable source of moral virtue; you cannot be sure of it because people are capable of doing bad things in the name of God. The thing is we both believe in absolute morality as opposed to relative morality. We both agreed that the human conscience is evidence of this. I brought up that human conscience can be disordered and needs guidance. I said that the Church exists for this reason. He told me this was blind faith, I denied this. He brought up the story of Abraham, how God commanded Abraham to kill his own Son as a sacrifice. I argued that God is the author of life and has the complete right to give and take life. He sort of showed me how this was based on blind faith because the Islamic terrorists could use the same argument. He said “how do we know this is the voice of God.” You can’t argue from conscience anymore, because our conscience would not allow us to do something like that. The whole defense of the Christian moral ethos is that it resonates with the human conscience and is written on our hearts. The story of Abraham is problematic because God gave Abraham a moral conscience and then commanded him to do something that goes against it, in fact, something that according to the old testament is abominable: human sacrifice. Ultimately Abraham showed that he was willing and capable to do this, and God rewarded him not for his moral judgment but for his obedience. This makes the Christian ethos one of obedience only, not conscience. Thus blind faith. I do not believe that any Catholic would recommend that someone accept something that goes against their conscience. So how can I expect an agnostic to accept the teachings of the Bible and of God?
He was raised Catholic and said that his parents forced him to go through confirmation even though he was vocal about his doubts and agnosticism. Which is strange because his parents don’t really practice, they just said they thought it would be better for him in the long run. I’ve been friends with this guy for a year and a half, he’s always known that I am pretty hardcore Catholic but I guess this is the first time we’ve ever talked about religion in a deep manner. We’re pretty good friends so it was a friendly discussion.Without knowing more about your friends background the best answers to this question would be conjecture. Was your friend ever religious? If so what religion/denomination was it and why did your friend become an apostate?
No, you are embracing Fideism. If we say that what God says is good, it is not because God is God but because, in being God, he is also goodness, and does not stray from goodness. Consider how Abraham speaks to the lord in Genesis 18;21:32:So I guess the bottom line is I have to change my philosophy that Christian morality can be arrived at through an honest examination of the conscience and conclude instead that the conscience alone, without guidance, is not enough to guide a person. Morality is ultimately something revealed by God, but has reasons behind it. And if we don’t understand the morality of God then it is better to trust and follow than to follow our own limited and flawed reason. To have faith ultimately is to believe in the teachings of prophets and apostles based on their credibility.
Abraham may have known that the Lord was testing him. That is what I think. Or if not, he must have assumed there was some compelling reason for Isaac’s death - but not an inscrutable, unexplainable one, but a comprehensible reason that was hidden from him (perhaps as punishment for allowing Sarah to drive Haggar and Ishmael, his firstborn son, to their deaths - that’s what I would have thought if I were him).Then the LORD said: “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave,
21
that I must go down and see whether or not their actions fully correspond to the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out.”
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While the two men walked on farther toward Sodom, the LORD remained standing before Abraham.
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Then Abraham drew nearer to him and said: “Will you sweep away the innocent with the guilty?
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Suppose there were fifty innocent people in the city; would you wipe out the place, rather than spare it for the sake of the fifty innocent people within it?
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Far be it from you to do such a thing, to make the innocent die with the guilty, so that the innocent and the guilty would be treated alike! Should not the judge of all the world act with justice?”
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The LORD replied, “If I find fifty innocent people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
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Abraham spoke up again: “See how I am presuming to speak to my Lord, though I am but dust and ashes!
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What if there are five less than fifty innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of those five?” “I will not destroy it,” he answered, “if I find forty-five there.”
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But Abraham persisted, saying, “What if only forty are found there?” He replied, “I will forebear doing it for the sake of the forty.”
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Then he said, “Let not my Lord grow impatient if I go on. What if only thirty are found there?” He replied, “I will forebear doing it if I can find but thirty there.”
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Still he went on, “Since I have thus dared to speak to my Lord, what if there are no more than twenty?” “I will not destroy it,” he answered, “for the sake of the twenty.”
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But he still persisted: “Please, let not my Lord grow angry if I speak up this last time. What if there are at least ten there?” “For the sake of those ten,” he replied, “I will not destroy it.”
I agree with you but I don’t think this friend is that type of teen (in fact, I think he is in his early twenties). He agrees that morality is absolute and that faith is a more likely way to arrive at a correct moral worldview than personal opinion. That alone I think separates him from most of my peers. The thing is he finds faith hard to swallow, and in this case it is biblical teaching itself that steers him away from it. The reason why this discussion left me sleepless is because I have always seen christian morality as something that can be arrived at using reason and conscience (the “common master,” as Peter Kreeft refers to them), and that morality is embedded into the very world we live in; there is some truth to this, but the statement isn’t completely true because of instances like this. He brings up the point that to defend God’s actions in this case, you have to take an “ends justifies the means” approach: God commanded Abraham to do something immoral in order to test his obedience. This is something that is hard to justify to someone who does not believe.Comp
Many teenagers are agnostic, partly because the Church is a spiritual discipline and teenagers often flee discipline. If you look at the history of famous agnostic/atheist personalities, you often see this pattern of teen revolt against faith. It doesn’t speak well for the position taken, that in one’s teen years, one has presumed to figure out the correct answer to the most important question in life: Does God exist?
I expect that as your friend advances through life, there will be occasions when new insights and advanced wisdom will help him doubt his youthful enthusiasm for doubt. By your patient example as a loving Catholic friend you may help him tilt the scales away from doubt and toward faith.
Did God command Abraham to do something. . . God commanded Abraham to do something immoral in order to test his obedience . . .
As an old man who has lived thru many of the trials of life, I can asured this young agnostic if he lives long enought we will need our Lord ar some point. Life happens to all of us, if we are wise we will find Our Lord. He choices us, we donot choice him.Comp
Many teenagers are agnostic, partly because the Church is a spiritual discipline and teenagers often flee discipline. If you look at the history of famous agnostic/atheist personalities, you often see this pattern of teen revolt against faith. It doesn’t speak well for the position taken, that in one’s teen years, one has presumed to figure out the correct answer to the most important question in life: Does God exist?
I expect that as your friend advances through life, there will be occasions when new insights and advanced wisdom will help him doubt his youthful enthusiasm for doubt. By your patient example as a loving Catholic friend you may help him tilt the scales away from doubt and toward faith.
This is true in a sense, because God is Goodness and as such all his commands will be good. But Duns and Aquinas both offered more qualified versions of Divine Command Theory than you present here.Did God command Abraham to do something
- objectively immoral?
- that you consider immoral?
- that your friend considers immoral?
What was immoral in the command?- the testing of Abraham’s faith and hope in God
- God says jump and you must jump regardless
- God is playing games with Abraham
**
God’s commands define morality. **
Faith is manifested when it is tested, otherwise it is simply a possibility.
The conversation does point to areas where you can grow in understanding and loving the mystery that is God.
He is a very interesting person. He is fascinated by economics and often times when discussing science, philosophy, religion, etc. he often makes analogies related to economics which come across as esoteric to me. As far as his beliefs are concerned I believe he is into objectivism (the philosophy of Ayn Rand) and believes that humans are basically self-serving, and that all human action, including altruistic action, is still based in the desire to serve oneself. Before the debate on morality we discussed love, and I think I put up a pretty good argument of love as an anomaly to human selfishness as love, in its truest form, is inherently self-sacrificing. He listens to skeptic podcasts and is into Penn Jillette as well.Comp
**He brings up the point that to defend God’s actions in this case, you have to take an “ends justifies the means” approach: **God commanded Abraham to do something immoral in order to test his obedience. This is something that is hard to justify to someone who does not believe.
In God all things commanded are moral, even seemingly disagreeable or strange commands.
Again, the end to be justified here is obedience. Because Abraham’s trust in God was absolute, Isaac was saved and Abraham was rewarded as the founder of Judaism.
Did your friend only become an agnostic recently? It would help to know. Has he come under the sway of other agnostics (reading Bertrand Russell for example)? It seems to me you said he resisted Confirmation. That would make him agnostic or atheistic in his early teens.
I hope that you mean that God offers grace to whom he chooses, and not that we are unable to decide whether or not to accept that grace - that would be irresistible grace, which was one of the Jansenist (and Calvinist before them) errors.As an old man who has lived thru many of the trials of life, I can asured this young agnostic if he lives long enought we will need our Lord ar some point. Life happens to all of us, if we are wise we will find Our Lord. He choices us, we donot choice him.
We are all fallen humans stumbling through the darkness. Do not mock those who sit on the fence, for I know from experience that few sit there willingly.I agree with Twoshoes- I’m an elder of the tribe as well and am impressed at the way you guys are handling this question. Our Church is in safe hands and to the distressed OP I have to say…agnostics are hideous creatures who sit on the fence and have no answers, they don’t know!!..we exist on faith and our answers are based around faith…they can’t cope with our faith. Now settle down and have a good nights sleep amen
Will the veiled sister pray for
Those who walk in darkness, who chose thee and oppose thee,
Those who are torn on the horn between season and season, time and time, between
Hour and hour, word and word, power and power, those who wait
In darkness? Will the veiled sister pray
For children at the gate
Who will not go away and cannot pray:
Pray for those who chose and oppose
O my people, what have I done unto thee.
Will the veiled sister between the slender
Yew trees pray for those who offend her
And are terrified and cannot surrender
And affirm before the world and deny between the rocks
In the last desert before the last blue rocks
The desert in the garden the garden in the desert
Of drouth, spitting from the mouth the withered apple-seed.
O my people.
-T.S. Eliot, from “Ash Wednesday”
I’m not defending agnosticism, I’m telling a person who was resorting to name calling to knock it off in a polite way. If you’d rather I were more direct about it, alright - No one on this forum should be calling and belief group hideous. I say so not in spite of being a Catholic, but because of it, because Christ said whoever calls his brother fool will be subject to judgment.To Kevin 12 I say- Speak for yourself my friend - yes fallen creatures but I’m stumbling towards the light. You declare yourself a Catholic on CAF so why defend agnosticism?
It requires a lot of courage and a tremendous leap of faith to come off that fence so don’t get bogged down by T.S.Eliot…our Bible and Christianity are our light sources and enlightenment. It’s an age thing for me so I probably understand some of the reticence a person might go through in not knowing BUT don’t push it!—God Bless
Is there any way to speed up this process of realisation for Agnostic Theists, through Gods Grace and the Holy Spirit? because I am quite unsure how to guide Agnostic Theists to the truth of Christianity and Catholicism.Tarsus, I think that you may be judging a little too harshly. I myself was an agnostic theist once but, like my friend, I was seeking the truth. It is by God’s grace and the Holy Spirit that I found the Catholic Church and not by mere human wisdom (1 Corinthians 2)