I got in a morality debate with an agnostic and now I can't sleep

[ThinkingSapien]

Done programming, testing, and shipping my little project off to France. Now to get back to responding to you

Do you think there is life after death?

I’ve got no clue if there is or isn’t. At most I can say that I don’t have the expectation that I will retain any form of my self identity after I die.

True, only problem with Atheism, is that while they claim to not believe in anything without scientific proof, they certainly place their beliefs in something, especially when it comes to morality, when it comes to how they live their lives, that’s why they say science isn’t a danger, it’s scientism that’s the danger. It’s thinking that science has something to say about morality, about how to live our lives.

I’m not one that has ever said that “scientific proof” is needed to be convinced of something. There are many other ways that one can become convinced. Though a potential advantage of information gathered from many scientific pursuits is that the experiences may be portable; given the resources some one may be able to repeat an experiment and experience the results for her self. By contrast personal experiences and revelations can at times be confined to the person that has them with no way share having the experience with some one else. While it may be possible to convince others with a retelling of the experience it may be more difficult.

What if they are a multimillion dollar corporation and the check is only for $100 and he say’s “it’s good.” You may not know his check is good, but you have a fairly good idea that it is, the chances of it not being good are very unlikely.

So what option do you have, will you refuse the check because there is no way of “knowing” if it will bounce or not? Will you refuse that check because your worried that it could bounce? What if it doesn’t? You just chucked away $100.

It seems that you are talking about whether or not I take a risk on cashing a check. This is different from whether or not I know it’s good.

Ever heard of Pascals Wager?

Yes. But it has always come across to me as faking belief in a specific denomination and religion. It doesn’t really address that one is not convinced.

Can you acknowledge that there are many truths in the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Hmmmm…I can say that there are some useful stories that are attribute to Jesus.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

“Masturbation for me is largely an amoral issue.” Not true. A couple of years ago, I would have bought right into that, but I couldn’t ignore the truth written on my heart, I desperately wanted to think of it as an amoral issue, but it’s not, it’s clearly not and does great harm, especially with todays such easy access to pornography.

Masturbation manipulates the way you view sex. For the worse.

I think that [m]any sexual experience will have an impact of how ones views sex. I’m not certain it is always for the worst.

It becomes no longer about procreation, but all about and only about self gratification

Correct. While I understand that Catholicism frowns upon sexual acts that are not open to procreation that’s not a view point that I share. I think that same view point would be needed to see the above as a negative.

, about appeasing your own sexual desires. It turns into a drug. To a very unhealthy addiction.

It can be. Much like consumption of alcohol, foods high in cholesterol, or playing a game where one can win or loose money. But when done in moderation and responsibly I cannot identify the harm that occurs. I have been told by others in this forum that masturbation harms one’s soul. But have have a conviction of this I’d also need to have conviction of an afterlife and a soul (which I don’t). There are also those that see masturbation as equivalent to fornication. Whether or not it actually is a form of fornication is by itself a non-issue for me; I’m not concerned if two single consenting adults engage in sexual activities without legal certification or if an autosexual engages in activities with himself/herself.

Anyone who sees masturbation as an amoral issue, is gravely mistaken, I don’t know how I can explain it to you,

I don’t think the disagreement here is because I don’t understand. I think it’s that I have not been convinced of other matters on which the prohibition of masturbation is derived.

but for me, it was basically a truth written on my heart, I tried to supress it and ignore it, but it just kept getting worse and worse until I could no longer ignore it and now I deeply regret all the times that I tried to ignore it.

Sexuality is sacred. It’s not to be abused and misused for self gratification. If you reflect on this issue, I’m sure you will find the truth written on your heart that it is clearly immoral.

I’ve

Please watch this - youtube.com/watch?v=suoUY2k6gPE

& youtube.com/watch?v=TUiQxxlO8Ak

They are very short, only take about 5min.

I’ve watched it!

It’s like this story above, the double standards of Atheism, is that they claim there is no God, yet they subscribe to his truths that man learnt from God because they don’t reject the truths in the foundations of God’s teachings, the foundations of God is Love.

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I don’t make the claim that there is/are no god/God/gods any more than I make the claim that you don’t have $132.43 in your checking account.

To quote Evid3nce on this

Evid3nc3:

…However, I have never met an atheist that when pressed would identify as a strong atheist. Rather every atheist I’ve ever seen address this issue identifies themselves by the definition that I’ve been using, which is simply a lack of belief in God. Which means that these atheist are not claiming to know God does not exists. They’re not even claiming to have good evidence that God does not exist. They simply are not persuaded by the arguments that theist have presented…In my experience basically all atheist are agnostic, and most agnostic are also atheist since they almost never have a positive belief in God…

 

[josh987654321]

I’ve got no clue if there is or isn’t. At most I can say that I don’t have the expectation that I will retain any form of my self identity after I die.

I’m unsure, but I know there is life after death.

I’m not one that has ever said that “scientific proof” is needed to be convinced of something. There are many other ways that one can become convinced. Though a potential advantage of information gathered from many scientific pursuits is that the experiences may be portable; given the resources some one may be able to repeat an experiment and experience the results for her self. By contrast personal experiences and revelations can at times be confined to the person that has them with no way share having the experience with some one else. While it may be possible to convince others with a retelling of the experience it may be more difficult.

There have been many miracles experienced by atheists and sceptics.

It seems that you are talking about whether or not I take a risk on cashing a check. This is different from whether or not I know it’s good.

True, but it was more in relation to Pascal’s Wager.

Yes. But it has always come across to me as faking belief in a specific denomination and religion. It doesn’t really address that one is not convinced.

Yea, I agree, if you base your belief on Pascal’s Wager I think it will be a very weak belief, however it may be enough faith for you to discover the truth.

Hmmmm…I can say that there are some useful stories that are attribute to Jesus.

But can you recognise the many moral truths in Christ’s teachings and that of many of the prophets?

I think that [m]any sexual experience will have an impact of how ones views sex. I’m not certain it is always for the worst.

Remember Masturbation and Pornography go hand in hand, they are both closely related. These things have torn lives apart who embraced them.

Correct. While I understand that Catholicism frowns upon sexual acts that are not open to procreation that’s not a view point that I share. I think that same view point would be needed to see the above as a negative.

I meant to include “love” in there as well, it no longer becomes about Love and Procreation, but simply about appeasing sexual desires about personal sexual gratification. It so easily turns into “using” rather than “loving” your spouse. It’s in masturbation where the truth is turned upside down and corrupted.

It can be. Much like consumption of alcohol, foods high in cholesterol, or playing a game where one can win or loose money. But when done in moderation and responsibly I cannot identify the harm that occurs. I have been told by others in this forum that masturbation harms one’s soul. But have have a conviction of this I’d also need to have conviction of an afterlife and a soul (which I don’t). There are also those that see masturbation as equivalent to fornication. Whether or not it actually is a form of fornication is by itself a non-issue for me; I’m not concerned if two single consenting adults engage in sexual activities without legal certification or if an autosexual engages in activities with himself/herself.

I don’t see masturbation on the same level as fornication, because fornication involves the other person, however they are closely linked, one easily leads to the other.

Fornication is so wrong, because I know that I wouldn’t like my future wife whoever she may be to have slept around with other guys so why would I do it to her?

Masturbation doesn’t just harm ones soul, like I said, it goes hand in hand with pornography, anyway, I don’t think you will recognise the immorality of masturbation and pornography until you are open to the truth, because when you acknowledge something as immoral, living with the status quo becomes much harder. So it all depends on whether you are willing to give up the status quo or not, to whether you will acknowledge the truth or not.

I don’t think the disagreement here is because I don’t understand. I think it’s that I have not been convinced of other matters on which the prohibition of masturbation is derived.

It’s derived from the sacredness of ones sexuality, from the fact that this is something in which is used to enhance the bond between you and your wife only, a deeply intimate relationship with you and your wife through the consummation of marriage, something which becomes less and less intimate the more your sexuality becomes less and less sacred.

Like I said, I’m unsure how I can explain it to you, but when you are in the grasps of it you will most likely be closed to the truth of it’s immorality. The pornographic industry has devastated so many young lives. Chastity is now considered “abnormal” that is how much of a grasp it has on todays society.

I’ve watched it!

What did you think?

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I don’t make the claim that there is/are no god/God/gods any more than I make the claim that you don’t have $132.43 in your checking account.

To quote Evid3nce on this

My apologies, I just assumed, because I’m unsure what your beliefs are.

I think you will find Jesus Christ as the Truth the Way and the Life, through his many moral truths that he teaches mankind.

Anyway I’m not sure what else I can say, so I tried

Did any of this change your view on anything?

God Bless

Thanks for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

.

Please try this short online exercise for the proof of God’s existence proofthatgodexists.org/index.php

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[ThinkingSapien]

There have been many miracles experienced by atheists and sceptics.

I’ve got no doubt that there have been many people that have had experiences for which they do not know the explanation. But the only conclusion I can draw from that is that the explanation is unknown. It doesn’t tell me that there is or is not a super natural factor.

True, but it was more in relation to Pascal’s Wager.

Yea, I agree, if you base your belief on Pascal’s Wager I think it will be a very weak belief, however it may be enough faith for you to discover the truth.

Okay, but I see Pascal’s Wager as a form of faking and self deception. This isn’t a form of authentic belief. I could see Pascal’s wager working for an orthopraxy where it doesn’t matter if one really believes something or not. But for an orthodoxy (where belief matters) this doesn’t work. I don’t think belief/conviction is purely volitional (I don’t agree with doxastic voluntarism). Try for a moment believing that the moon is made of cheese or that your car is powered by coal. But please limit that belief to being sustained for 5 minutes and no more. Can you successfully believe that?

Also keep in mind that I had a starting point of thinking that Christianity was true (no need to have faked it).

But can you recognise the many moral truths in Christ’s teachings and that of many of the prophets?

I’m not sure. What are some of the moral truths that you have in mind?

I meant to include “love” in there as well, it no longer becomes about Love and Procreation,

While it’s nice for love to be involved, it need not involve love (as my college roommate can support after going through the arranged marriage).

but simply about appeasing sexual desires about personal sexual gratification. It so easily turns into “using” rather than “loving” your spouse. It’s in masturbation where the truth is turned upside down and corrupted.

I don’t see that happening with a spouse unless sex is the only activity in which they engage together.

Masturbation doesn’t just harm ones soul, like I said, it goes hand in hand with pornography, anyway, I don’t think you will recognise the immorality of masturbation and pornography until you are open to the truth, because when you acknowledge something as immoral, living with the status quo becomes much harder. So it all depends on whether you are willing to give up the status quo or not, to whether you will acknowledge the truth or not.

I’m afraid you are incorrect here. “Status quo” has nothing with why masturbation doesn’t concern me morally. I honestly don’t associate masturbation with harm.

Like I said, I’m unsure how I can explain it to you, but when you are in the grasps of it you will most likely be closed to the truth of it’s immorality. The pornographic industry has devastated so many young lives. Chastity is now considered “abnormal” that is how much of a grasp it has on todays society.

Like I said, I think I understand it, but I don’t agree with it (or some of the premises).

What did you think?

I think pretty much the same thing that I thought about the gabling and alcohol; there are people that can over do it, but that’s not everyone.

My apologies, I just assumed, because I’m unsure what your beliefs are.

Like I tell the Jehovah’s witnesses that often knock at my door there are many propositions that I evaluate as true. But to know something more specific than that I’ve got to be asked specific questions. Since the word/phrase “belief”/“Believe in” is often used as a conflation of concepts I’m not always sure which concepts one has in mind when using the phases.

I think you will find Jesus Christ as the Truth the Way and the Life, through his many moral truths that he teaches mankind.

Right now that’s not one of the propositions I evaluate as true. I can only say that I know people have told me this.

Anyway I’m not sure what else I can say, so I tried

Did any of this change your view on anything?

Afraid not. But this is all information I’ve encountered before.

Please try this short online exercise for the proof of God’s existence proofthatgodexists.org/index.phph

I’ve come across this too. I think this was put up by Sye ten Bruggencate and/or Kent Hovand. I’m afraid that from what I’ve seen thus far presuppositional apologetics seems to be viciously circular.

 

[josh987654321]

I’m not sure. What are some of the moral truths that you have in mind?

Matthew 5-7

The Sermon on the Mount

5 When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on the side of a mountain and sat down.[a]
**
Blessings**

Jesus’ disciples gathered around him, 2 and he taught them:

3 God blesses those people
who depend only on him.
They belong to the kingdom
of heaven!**
4 God blesses those people
who grieve.
They will find comfort!
5 God blesses those people
who are humble.
The earth will belong
to them!
6 God blesses those people
who want to obey him[c]
more than to eat or drink.
They will be given
what they want!
7 God blesses those people
who are merciful.
They will be treated
with mercy!
8 God blesses those people
whose hearts are pure.
They will see him!
9 God blesses those people
who make peace.
They will be called
his children!
10 God blesses those people
who are treated badly
for doing right.
They belong to the kingdom
of heaven.[d]

11 God will bless you when people insult you, mistreat you, and tell all kinds of evil lies about you because of me. 12 Be happy and excited! You will have a great reward in heaven. People did these same things to the prophets who lived long ago.

Salt and Light

13 You are like salt for everyone on earth. But if salt no longer tastes like salt, how can it make food salty? All it is good for is to be thrown out and walked on.

14 You are like light for the whole world. A city built on top of a hill cannot be hidden, 15 and no one would light a lamp and put it under a clay pot. A lamp is placed on a lampstand, where it can give light to everyone in the house. 16 Make your light shine, so that others will see the good that you do and will praise your Father in heaven.

The Law of Moses

17 Don’t suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets.[e] I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning. 18 Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen.

19 If you reject even the least important command in the Law and teach others to do the same, you will be the least important person in the kingdom of heaven. But if you obey and teach others its commands, you will have an important place in the kingdom. 20 You must obey God’s commands better than the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law obey them. If you don’t, I promise you that you will never get into the kingdom of heaven.

Anger

21 You know that our ancestors were told, “Do not murder” and “A murderer must be brought to trial.” 22 But I promise you that if you are angry with someone,[f] you will have to stand trial. If you call someone a fool, you will be taken to court. And if you say that someone is worthless, you will be in danger of the fires of hell.

23 So if you are about to place your gift on the altar and remember that someone is angry with you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. Make peace with that person, then come back and offer your gift to God.

25 Before you are dragged into court, make friends with the person who has accused you of doing wrong. If you don’t, you will be handed over to the judge and then to the officer who will put you in jail. 26 I promise you that you will not get out until you have paid the last cent you owe.

Marriage

27 You know the commandment which says, “Be faithful in marriage.” 28 But I tell you that if you look at another woman and want her, you are already unfaithful in your thoughts. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, poke it out and throw it away. It is better to lose one part of your body, than for your whole body to end up in hell. 30 If your right hand causes you to sin, chop it off and throw it away! It is better to lose one part of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Divorce

31 You have been taught that a man who divorces his wife must write out divorce papers for her.[g] 32 But I tell you not to divorce your wife unless she has committed some terrible sexual sin.[h] If you divorce her, you will cause her to be unfaithful, just as any man who marries her is guilty of taking another man’s wife.

Promises

33 You know that our ancestors were told, “Don’t use the Lord’s name to make a promise unless you are going to keep it.” 34 But I tell you not to swear by anything when you make a promise! Heaven is God’s throne, so don’t swear by heaven. 35 The earth is God’s footstool, so don’t swear by the earth. Jerusalem is the city of the great king, so don’t swear by it. 36 Don’t swear by your own head. You cannot make one hair white or black. 37 When you make a promise, say only “Yes” or “No.” Anything else comes from the devil.
**
Revenge**

38 You know that you have been taught, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” 39 But I tell you not to try to get even with a person who has done something to you. When someone slaps your right cheek,* turn and let that person slap your other cheek. 40 If someone sues you for your shirt, give up your coat as well. 41 If a soldier forces you to carry his pack one mile, carry it two miles.[j] 42 When people ask you for something, give it to them. When they want to borrow money, lend it to them.

Please continue to next post -***

 

[josh987654321]

Continued from above post -

Love

43 You have heard people say, “Love your neighbors and hate your enemies.” 44 But I tell you to love your enemies and pray for anyone who mistreats you. 45 Then you will be acting like your Father in heaven. He makes the sun rise on both good and bad people. And he sends rain for the ones who do right and for the ones who do wrong. 46 If you love only those people who love you, will God reward you for that? Even tax collectors[k] love their friends. 47 If you greet only your friends, what’s so great about that? Don’t even unbelievers do that? 48 But you must always act like your Father in heaven.

Giving

6 When you do good deeds, don’t try to show off. If you do, you won’t get a reward from your Father in heaven.

2 When you give to the poor, don’t blow a loud horn. That’s what show-offs do in the meeting places and on the street corners, because they are always looking for praise. I can assure you that they already have their reward.

3 When you give to the poor, don’t let anyone know about it.[l] 4 Then your gift will be given in secret. Your Father knows what is done in secret, and he will reward you.
**
Prayer**

5 When you pray, don’t be like those show-offs who love to stand up and pray in the meeting places and on the street corners. They do this just to look good. I can assure you that they already have their reward.

6 When you pray, go into a room alone and close the door. Pray to your Father in private. He knows what is done in private, and he will reward you.

7 When you pray, don’t talk on and on as people do who don’t know God. They think God likes to hear long prayers. 8 Don’t be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask.

9 You should pray like this:

Our Father in heaven,
help us to honor
your name.
10 Come and set up
your kingdom,
so that everyone on earth
will obey you,
as you are obeyed
in heaven.
11 Give us our food for today.
12 Forgive us for doing wrong,
as we forgive others.
13 Keep us from being tempted
and protect us from evil.

14 If you forgive others for the wrongs they do to you, your Father in heaven will forgive you. 15 But if you don’t forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.
**
Worshiping God by Going without Eating**

16 When you go without eating,[o] don’t try to look gloomy as those show-offs do when they go without eating. I can assure you that they already have their reward. 17 Instead, comb your hair and wash your face. 18 Then others won’t know that you are going without eating. But your Father sees what is done in private, and he will reward you.

Treasures in Heaven

19 Don’t store up treasures on earth! Moths and rust can destroy them, and thieves can break in and steal them. 20 Instead, store up your treasures in heaven, where moths and rust cannot destroy them, and thieves cannot break in and steal them. 21 Your heart will always be where your treasure is.

Light

22 Your eyes are like a window for your body. When they are good, you have all the light you need. 23 But when your eyes are bad, everything is dark. If the light inside you is dark, you surely are in the dark.
**
Money**

24 You cannot be the slave of two masters! You will like one more than the other or be more loyal to one than the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Worry

25 I tell you not to worry about your life. Don’t worry about having something to eat, drink, or wear. Isn’t life more than food or clothing? 26 Look at the birds in the sky! They don’t plant or harvest. They don’t even store grain in barns. Yet your Father in heaven takes care of them. Aren’t you worth more than birds?

27 Can worry make you live longer?[p] 28 Why worry about clothes? Look how the wild flowers grow. They don’t work hard to make their clothes. 29 But I tell you that Solomon with all his wealth[q] wasn’t as well clothed as one of them. 30 God gives such beauty to everything that grows in the fields, even though it is here today and thrown into a fire tomorrow. He will surely do even more for you! Why do you have such little faith?

31 Don’t worry and ask yourselves, “Will we have anything to eat? Will we have anything to drink? Will we have any clothes to wear?” 32 Only people who don’t know God are always worrying about such things. Your Father in heaven knows that you need all of these. 33 But more than anything else, put God’s work first and do what he wants. Then the other things will be yours as well.

34 Don’t worry about tomorrow. It will take care of itself. You have enough to worry about today.

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Continued from above post -
**
Judging Others**

7 Don’t condemn others, and God won’t condemn you. 2 God will be as hard on you as you are on others! He will treat you exactly as you treat them.

3 You can see the speck in your friend’s eye, but you don’t notice the log in your own eye. 4 How can you say, “My friend, let me take the speck out of your eye,” when you don’t see the log in your own eye? 5 You’re nothing but show-offs! First, take the log out of your own eye. Then you can see how to take the speck out of your friend’s eye.

6 Don’t give to dogs what belongs to God. They will only turn and attack you. Don’t throw pearls down in front of pigs. They will trample all over them.
**
Ask, Search, Knock**

7 Ask, and you will receive. Search, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened for you. 8 Everyone who asks will receive. Everyone who searches will find. And the door will be opened for everyone who knocks. 9 Would any of you give your hungry child a stone, if the child asked for some bread? 10 Would you give your child a snake if the child asked for a fish? 11 As bad as you are, you still know how to give good gifts to your children. But your heavenly Father is even more ready to give good things to people who ask.

12 Treat others as you want them to treat you. This is what the Law and the Prophets[r] are all about.

The Narrow Gate

13 Go in through the narrow gate. The gate to destruction is wide, and the road that leads there is easy to follow. A lot of people go through that gate. 14 But the gate to life is very narrow. The road that leads there is so hard to follow that only a few people find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit

15 Watch out for false prophets! They dress up like sheep, but inside they are wolves who have come to attack you. 16 You can tell what they are by what they do. No one picks grapes or figs from thornbushes. 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that produces bad fruit will be chopped down and burned. 20 You can tell who the false prophets are by their deeds.
**
A Warning**

21 Not everyone who calls me their Lord will get into the kingdom of heaven. Only the ones who obey my Father in heaven will get in. 22 On the day of judgment many will call me their Lord. They will say, “We preached in your name, and in your name we forced out demons and worked many miracles.” 23 But I will tell them, “I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!”

Two Builders

24 Anyone who hears and obeys these teachings of mine is like a wise person who built a house on solid rock. 25 Rain poured down, rivers flooded, and winds beat against that house. But it did not fall, because it was built on solid rock.

26 Anyone who hears my teachings and doesn’t obey them is like a foolish person who built a house on sand. 27 The rain poured down, the rivers flooded, and the winds blew and beat against that house. Finally, it fell with a crash.

28 When Jesus finished speaking, the crowds were surprised at his teaching. 29 He taught them like someone with authority, and not like their teachers of the Law of Moses.

*God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh*]

 

[josh987654321]

.

Without God ThinkingSapien, there is no such thing as good and evil or right and wrong. This is something that I for one, cannot believe, because it is so clearly not true. So I don’t understand how you can.

There are two kinds of people in this world 1) Those who bend their knees to God and say “Your will be done.” and 2) Those who refuse to bend their knee’s to God and God say’s “Alright, your will be done.”

A man can no more diminish God’s glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, ‘darkness’ on the walls of his cell. C.S. Lewis

If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts - i.e., Materialism and Astronomy - are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset. C.S. Lewis

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. Winston Churchill

Humanism or atheism is a wonderful philosophy of life as long as you are big, strong, and between the ages of eighteen and thirty-five. But watch out if you are in a lifeboat and there are others who are younger, bigger, or smarter. William Murray

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Without God ThinkingSapien, there is no such thing as good and evil or right and wrong. This is something that I for one, cannot believe, because it is so clearly not true. So I don’t understand how you can.

I think we use the words “good” and “evil” in different ways. I use it to label helpful or malicious intents and don’t use it when speaking about unintentional events (ex: a tornado that causes deaths or even a human involved in some one else’s death without malice, without intent, and without neglect).

There are two kinds of people in this world 1) Those who bend their knees to God and say “Your will be done.” and 2) Those who refuse to bend their knee’s to God and God say’s “Alright, your will be done.”

This is a bit of a false dichotomy.It seems that not everyone holds the belief that there is a deity that demands/desires the bending of knees and praises. In my case, as I stated before, I don’t have the conviction that the god that you worship exists.

A man can no more diminish God’s glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, ‘darkness’ on the walls of his cell. C.S. Lewis

I’m not sure why this is quoted, as there’s not been an attempt or talk about diminishing any one’s glory.

If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident…

tonyrey quotes versions of this quote and statements that seem to be inspired by it much in these forums. I don’t agree with the semantics of the statement. But I don’t think that picking them apart would advance any discussion right now.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. Winston Churchill

I also think we may have a semantic difference here too. Or perhaps we don’t. I only use the term “truth” to refer to propositions that evaluate as true. But in moral discussions I know that people use the term “truth” to mean other things too.

Humanism or atheism is a wonderful philosophy of life

Sorry, I can’t say that I know what you have in mind in referring to atheism as a philosophy here.

 

[LegoGE1947]

I’ve got no doubt that there have been many people that have had experiences for which they do not know the explanation. But the only conclusion I can draw from that is that the explanation is unknown. It doesn’t tell me that there is or is not a super natural factor.

Okay, but I see Pascal’s Wager as a form of faking and self deception. This isn’t a form of authentic belief. I could see Pascal’s wager working for an orthopraxy where it doesn’t matter if one really believes something or not. But for an orthodoxy (where belief matters) this doesn’t work. I don’t think belief/conviction is purely volitional (I don’t agree with doxastic voluntarism). Try for a moment believing that the moon is made of cheese or that your car is powered by coal. But please limit that belief to being sustained for 5 minutes and no more. Can you successfully believe that?

Also keep in mind that I had a starting point of thinking that Christianity was true (no need to have faked it).

I’m not sure. What are some of the moral truths that you have in mind?

While it’s nice for love to be involved, it need not involve love (as my college roommate can support after going through the arranged marriage).

I don’t see that happening with a spouse unless sex is the only activity in which they engage together.

I’m afraid you are incorrect here. “Status quo” has nothing with why masturbation doesn’t concern me morally. I honestly don’t associate masturbation with harm.

Like I said, I think I understand it, but I don’t agree with it (or some of the premises).

I think pretty much the same thing that I thought about the gabling and alcohol; there are people that can over do it, but that’s not everyone.

Like I tell the Jehovah’s witnesses that often knock at my door there are many propositions that I evaluate as true. But to know something more specific than that I’ve got to be asked specific questions. Since the word/phrase “belief”/“Believe in” is often used as a conflation of concepts I’m not always sure which concepts one has in mind when using the phases.

Right now that’s not one of the propositions I evaluate as true. I can only say that I know people have told me this.

Anyway I’m not sure what else I can say, so I tried

Afraid not. But this is all information I’ve encountered before.

I’ve come across this too. I think this was put up by Sye ten Bruggencate and/or Kent Hovand. I’m afraid that from what I’ve seen thus far presuppositional apologetics seems to be viciously circular.

Wasn’t Pascal’s Wager that “Orb” would win the Kentucky Derby?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

But can you recognise the many moral truths in Christ’s teachings and that of many of the prophets?

I’m not sure. What are some of the moral truths that you have in mind?

I’ll save you a lot of reading. There’s a lot below that I disagree with. So feel free to skip reading and generalize the answer to your question as “No.” Many of these “moral truths” are contingent on rewards after death and interactions with God. From my earlier messages you already know that neither of which is included in my description of the world.

I only talk about the first third of the “moral truths” that you’ve shared.

Blessings

A lot of what is written here is about how God would react to people based on their behaviour. So agreement with a lot of this is contingent on that God existing; and you already know where I stand on that conviction.

The Law of Moses

There’s still disagreement in the community about what these mean as this seems to determin how people react to the old testament.

Anger
Before you are dragged into court, make friends with the person who has accused you of doing wrong.

Can’t agree with that. If I were dragged to court I would avoid contact with the other person for concern of doing or saying something in front of the other person that could be presented in a manner that would be to my disadvantage.

Marriage
…But I tell you that if you look at another woman and want her, you are already unfaithful in your thoughts…

I think our discussion on masturbation is enough to infer my stance here.

Divorce

Outside of the legal benefits I don’t see much of a purpose for marriage. But unfaithfulness is not the only reason I would consider valid for some one deciding to terminate the civil contract of marriage. From the divorces that I have observed I get the impression that being a Christian (or even that being a Catholic) translates into some one agreeing with this despite marriage being one of the seven sacrements in Catholicism.

Revenge
…When someone slaps your right cheek,* turn and let that person slap your other cheek. 40 If someone sues you for your shirt, give up your coat as well…
*
Doesn’t sound like a good strategy in today’s world. Not to mention if I slapped some one I’d probably risk having them sue me for my shirt and put up total immunity to verse 25. Speaking of which…
josh987654321;10869510:

Love

43 You have heard people say, “Love your neighbors and hate your enemies.” 44 But I tell you to love your enemies and pray for anyone who mistreats you.

While there isn’t anyone for which I can identify having feelings of hate I don’t feel an obligation to love my neighbor. A neighbor for a third of my life would engage in rather descructive behaviours (like the time she decapitated my cat, chopped off its paws, and threw it back in our yard). Such actions do not nurture feelings of “love.”

Thanks for trying. But I don’t expect much progress here unless there’s a supernatural epistemology that could be used. It seems from previous discussions in this forum there’s not yet one (or at least it hasn’t been shared here).

 

[aprilfloyd]

So how can I expect an agnostic to accept the teachings of the Bible and of God?

You will struggle. People who do not follow your religion, will find it difficult if not impossible to accept your teachings over any other religions’ teachings. For the simple reason that no religion holds a superior position to any other religion. Calling a system of beliefs a religion does not raise it to a higher standard.

 

[Aloysium]

You will struggle. People who do not follow your religion, will find it difficult if not impossible to accept your teachings over any other religions’ teachings. For the simple reason that no religion holds a superior position to any other religion. Calling a system of beliefs a religion does not raise it to a higher standard.

Is that your opinion or are you speaking from superior insight?

 

[josh987654321]

You will struggle. People who do not follow your religion, will find it difficult if not impossible to accept your teachings over any other religions’ teachings. For the simple reason that no religion holds a superior position to any other religion. Calling a system of beliefs a religion does not raise it to a higher standard.

Is that your opinion or are you speaking from superior insight?

 

[josh987654321]

I think we use the words “good” and “evil” in different ways. I use it to label helpful or malicious intents and don’t use it when speaking about unintentional events (ex: a tornado that causes deaths or even a human involved in some one else’s death without malice, without intent, and without neglect).

How do you distinguish between Good and Evil?

This is a bit of a false dichotomy.It seems that not everyone holds the belief that there is a deity that demands/desires the bending of knees and praises. In my case, as I stated before, I don’t have the conviction that the god that you worship exists.

Okay. But I see the truths in Jesus Christ’s wisdom, of God’s holy will which is Love and Mercy (forgiveness & compassion).

I’m not sure why this is quoted, as there’s not been an attempt or talk about diminishing any one’s glory.

I’m just trying different things to see if something clicks for you.

tonyrey quotes versions of this quote and statements that seem to be inspired by it much in these forums. I don’t agree with the semantics of the statement. But I don’t think that picking them apart would advance any discussion right now.

Okay.

I also think we may have a semantic difference here too. Or perhaps we don’t. I only use the term “truth” to refer to propositions that evaluate as true. But in moral discussions I know that people use the term “truth” to mean other things too.

What would it take for you to evaluate that God is true, that Jesus Christ is the truth the way and the life?

Sorry, I can’t say that I know what you have in mind in referring to atheism as a philosophy here.

Just trying different tacts to see if something clicks for you or gets a certain reaction.

I’ll save you a lot of reading. There’s a lot below that I disagree with. So feel free to skip reading and generalize the answer to your question as “No.” Many of these “moral truths” are contingent on rewards after death and interactions with God. From my earlier messages you already know that neither of which is included in my description of the world.

I only talk about the first third of the “moral truths” that you’ve shared.

Okay.

A lot of what is written here is about how God would react to people based on their behaviour. So agreement with a lot of this is contingent on that God existing; and you already know where I stand on that conviction.

True.

There’s still disagreement in the community about what these mean as this seems to determin how people react to the old testament.

Well for example, with the things in Leviticus, they were told that certain things were sinful/immoral and to put to death those who sinned in such a way and when they brought the Adulterer in, he said “he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Than he said “I won’t accuse you either, go and sin no more.” He didn’t say Adultery was no longer a sin/immoral, he didn’t come to do away with those teachings, but to give them their full meaning.

Can’t agree with that. If I were dragged to court I would avoid contact with the other person for concern of doing or saying something in front of the other person that could be presented in a manner that would be to my disadvantage.

How many times have people been dragged into court because the victim wanted validation? the victim simply wanted an apology from the perpetrator? how many court cases could so easily be settled by the two involved? How many times have you seen the solicitors and lawyers taking the majority of the money that’s being fought over because the two couldn’t work it out?

I think our discussion on masturbation is enough to infer my stance here.

So you don’t thinking there is anything wrong with looking at another woman and wanting her instead of your wife in marriage? how would your wife feel? how would you feel if it was the other way around?

Outside of the legal benefits I don’t see much of a purpose for marriage. But unfaithfulness is not the only reason I would consider valid for some one deciding to terminate the civil contract of marriage. From the divorces that I have observed I get the impression that being a Christian (or even that being a Catholic) translates into some one agreeing with this despite marriage being one of the seven sacrements in Catholicism.

The Catholic Church I think is the only one who holds truest to this teaching. It’s the rejection of this teaching that has made marriage meaningless, with no-fault divorce, for the majority of people, without this moral truth, marriage is null and void, I don’t even know why non-religious people or those who reject this teaching even bother with marriage.

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Continued from above post -

Doesn’t sound like a good strategy in today’s world. Not to mention if I slapped some one I’d probably risk having them sue me for my shirt and put up total immunity to verse 25. Speaking of which…

haha, good call true.

However it’s important not to seek revenge. Nothing good ever comes out of revenge.

While there isn’t anyone for which I can identify having feelings of hate I don’t feel an obligation to love my neighbor. A neighbor for a third of my life would engage in rather descructive behaviours (like the time she decapitated my cat, chopped off its paws, and threw it back in our yard). Such actions do not nurture feelings of “love.”

The cat part is very disturbing.

It’s important to love thy neighbour, however Christ also tells us not to give to dogs what belongs to God as they will only turn and attack you, so I wouldn’t be allowing this person near your cat again, but that doesn’t mean you can’t love your neighbour.

Thanks for trying. But I don’t expect much progress here unless there’s a supernatural epistemology that could be used. It seems from previous discussions in this forum there’s not yet one (or at least it hasn’t been shared here).

Just trying different things, hoping that something might click for you.

What do you think it would take for you to believe in Jesus Christ as the way the truth and the life, as the son of God?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[ThinkingSapien]

How do you distinguish between Good and Evil?

Like I mentioned before I only use the words to describe the intentions behind an action. But since I don’t have access to one’s mind it is not always known what their intentions are. It’s possible for some one to cause harm with good intentions, such as abruptly turning a steering wheel in a car to avoid hitting some one and causing an accident.

Okay. But I see the truths in Jesus Christ’s wisdom, of God’s holy will which is Love and Mercy (forgiveness & compassion).

I’m sure, but you seeing them is your experience. I

What would it take for you to evaluate that God is true, that Jesus Christ is the truth the way and the life?

Couldn’t tell you.

How many times have people been dragged into court because the victim wanted validation? the victim simply wanted an apology from the perpetrator?

Yeah, that doesn’t work.

I’ve seen people that want apologies from businesses for something and wonder why the business won’t give one. I think what is not understood is the apology to a person can be taken as an admission of guilt or fault; sometimes what one says is used against the person in a court of law. If the victim has no intentions to take further legal action that apology could still be used as evidence by a district attorney or another alleged victim. Also there’s not always a guarantee that said victim will cease legal action once the apology is received

how many court cases could so easily be settled by the two involved?

It’s unknown, especially considering that it’s not known that the apology would end legal action and not start new legal action.

So you don’t thinking there is anything wrong with looking at another woman and wanting her instead of your wife in marriage? how would your wife feel? how would you feel if it was the other way around?

Depends on the couple and the amount of exclusivity that the couple has agreed to. I’ve seen couples that rate others and share those ratings with their spouse. If the couple has a stated or understood agreement to not look at some one else and violates that then it’s another story.

The Catholic Church I think is the only one who holds truest to this teaching. It’s the rejection of this teaching that has made marriage meaningless, with no-fault divorce, for the majority of people, without this moral truth, marriage is null and void,

ok.

I don’t even know why non-religious people or those who reject this teaching even bother with marriage.

Tax and legal benefits. Some times to get citizenship or status. But those reasons are not specific to non-religious. You can find those across people in general.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

so I wouldn’t be allowing this person near your cat again, but that doesn’t mean you can’t love your neighbour.

I’ll just say she is nolonger a threat to any one. the cat incident is one of many that involved her in our neighborhood.

Just trying different things, hoping that something might click for you.

sorry dude, no clicking…

What do you think it would take for you to believe in Jesus Christ as the way the truth and the life, as the son of God?

Don’t know. If the god-concept that I hear described by Catholics exists then he has that knowledge (along with me e-mail address, phone number, and other info on how to contact me). Perhaps unambiguous two way communication with God would be a start.

 

[josh987654321]

.

I think this is an important question.

If I could prove to you that God existed beyond any doubt. What would you think of God?

.

My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such a violent reaction against it?.. Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if i did that, then my argument against God collapsed too–for the argument depended on saying the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my fancies. Thus, in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never have known it was dark. Dark would be without meaning. C.S. Lewis

I was at this time of living, like so many Atheists or Anti-theists, in a whirl of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with Him for creating a world. C.S. Lewis

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh