I got in trouble for kneeling to receive Communion

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SuscipeMeDomine said:
So your employer has asked you to receive communion according to the norms in the United States:
  1. The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
That seems pretty simple to me.

Thoughts that run through my mind at this point include something about the need for humility in following what our bishops have asked of us…something about setting an example for the youth you work with (as in “I’ll obey” versus “I’m doing it my own way”)…something about how if you have so little respect for your boss perhaps you should find another job.

If you are at a papal Mass and receive from the Pope, then do it his way. That would also be humble obedience.
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The norms for the United States according to the highest authority (Rome)—are kneeling and/or standing. “Humble obedience” in this case is not to interfere with and give full freedom to those who kneel.
 
SuscipeMeDomine said:
So your employer has asked you to receive communion according to the norms in the United States:
  1. The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
That seems pretty simple to me.

Thoughts that run through my mind at this point include something about the need for humility in following what our bishops have asked of us…something about setting an example for the youth you work with (as in “I’ll obey” versus “I’m doing it my own way”)…something about how if you have so little respect for your boss perhaps you should find another job.

If you are at a papal Mass and receive from the Pope, then do it his way. That would also be humble obedience.
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However, you are ignoring a very important fact here. Inasmuch as standing to receive Holy Communion is the norm for the United States, the question of kneeling to receive Holy Communion has been resoundlingly answered by Rome. Kneeling is the universal norm and if the communicant wishes to make use of that posture, it is his right. Kneeling to receive Holy Communion is not restricted to Papal Masses where the communicant receives Our Lord from the Holy Father.
 
benedictgal said:
However, you are ignoring a very important fact here. Inasmuch as standing to receive Holy Communion is the norm for the United States, the question of kneeling to receive Holy Communion has been resoundlingly answered by Rome. Kneeling is the universal norm and if the communicant wishes to make use of that posture, it is his right. Kneeling to receive Holy Communion is not restricted to Papal Masses where the communicant receives Our Lord from the Holy Father.
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Here benedictgal --is what some people are not aware off. The “norm” that allows standing is not a “norm” in the legal sense. It is a descriptive term — with no legally binding force.

adoremus.org/0303Q&A.html

Before the US bishops’ final vote on the American adaptations to the IGMR, the Congregation for Divine Worship had written to the Conference, noting that disturbing reports of people being denied Communion because they were kneeling had made this clarification necessary. The Holy See asked the bishops to make this explicit in their adaptation of IGMR §160.

Before the bishops voted on the proposed adaptation of §160,** a bishop questioned the meaning of the term “norm”. The chairman of the Bishops Committee on the Liturgy (Archbishop Oscar Lipscomb) said that “norm” is a descriptive term meaning the usual or standard practice, not a legal term. With this clarification, the bishops voted to accept the BCL’s wording of the adaptation**.

Since then, however, some bishops and liturgists are interpreting “norm” as implying that standing is legally obligatory. This is not the case. Some bishops – in dioceses in the US and elsewhere – permit kneeling to receive Communion. (Obviously, where the “Tridentine” or “indult” Mass is celebrated people always kneel to receive Communion.)

Many people find it hard to understand why any bishop would object so strongly to people kneeling.
 
Wow.
This may not be very relevant but this post brings to mind
a recent experience that brought tears to my eyes.
Recently my wife ( a brand new , Easter of 2008, Catholic) and
I drove down to Portland, Or to attend Mass at Holy Rosary
Church. It is staffed by Dominican priests and the parish is the home of the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary.
When it came time for Communion we went forward and knelt at
a real honest to goodness Communion rail and received the Eucharist on our tongues. What an experience! The last time I
experienced this was in the early to mid 1960’s in the parish I grew up in. The level of reverence and devotion exhibited by the people was awe inspiring. No one stopped to greet a freind or shake hands or high five someone on the way up or the way back. The whole experience was like a trip back in time. THEN the preist who celebrated the Mass capped it all by bestowing the Blessing at the end of Mass in Latin.
I know the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is still the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass but this Mass will stand out in my memory for awhile.
Next I am going to take my wife to a Mass said in Latin.

OLDRC
 
Bishops might do well to note that people are going to be about half as attentive to their rules as they are to Rome’s rules.Note the centurion
For I am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and he does it."
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One must be under authority to exercise authority.
 
Okay, I realize I am about to voice an unpopular position, so I have already assumed the ducking position. (But should I kneel in order to duck or stand and duck? I still haven’t decided. ;))

We should start with the passage from the GIRM in question. Here is what GIRM 160 says (in part; emphasis added):
The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
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I should say, first off, that I fully understand the desire to kneel to receive Communion. I sincerely wish that that was the norm (and it may soon be). And, of course, the Eucharist should never be denied to someone who kneels (nor should they receive even the threat of denial).

However, for whatever reason in the United States, the norm is to stand while we receive Communion. If the Pope is making it standard to kneel for the reception of the Eucharist at the papal liturgies, well that is certainly his right. Perhaps that means that a change is coming. But the fact remains, we are not there yet, at least not in the U.S.

All the GIRM says is that the norm is standing. There is no little asterisk saying that people may also kneel if they wish. All that is said is that they shouldn’t be denied for kneeling. These are two very different things. Of course the Church is not in the practice of denying Communion to anyone based solely on posture. That would be quite silly. But I find it very telling that the GIRM does not say something like “People may kneel for the reception of Holy Communion if they wish” or “The local bishop may make an exception for his diocese by allowing people to kneel for the reception of Holy Communion.” Nothing of the sort is stated.

Further, it goes on to say that instances where people kneel should be addressed pastorally, providing those who kneel with catechesis on why standing is the norm. Thus, the GIRM asks priests to confront those who kneel and explain to them the norm. So no one should feel offended if the priests asks to speak with them after Mass. They are just following the GIRM.

Now, is it the place of the Youth Minister to do this? I don’t know. Maybe the pastor asked him to. In any case, by virtue of his position (appointed by the pastor), the Youth Minister is (in part) responsible for the catechesis of the youth of the parish. The fact that the OP works for him indicates that the OP is also in a leadership position (not to mention the fact that the Youth Minister is responsible for those who work under him). As such, I find it reasonable for the Youth Minister to expect that the OP respect and follow the norms established by the bishops.

Do some priests take it too far by threatening to deny Communion, or by inappropriately confronting the person about it during Mass? Sure. And they shouldn’t do that. But it is their right, nay, their duty as a pastor to ask that their parishioners follow the norms established in the GIRM.

In my mind, the real issue here is fidelity to those who have legitimate authority over us. What a great example we can be to those around us by saying, “Yes, I believe it is more proper to kneel to receive Our Lord in the Eucharist. But I humbly submit myself to the norms established by my local bishops, because their authority comes from Christ, and my obedience to them is obedience to Christ.” I believe that that is what we are called to do.
 
SuscipeMeDomine said:
So your employer has asked you to receive communion according to the norms in the United States:
  1. The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
That seems pretty simple to me.

Thoughts that run through my mind at this point include something about the need for humility in following what our bishops have asked of us…something about setting an example for the youth you work with (as in “I’ll obey” versus “I’m doing it my own way”)…something about how if you have so little respect for your boss perhaps you should find another job.

If you are at a papal Mass and receive from the Pope, then do it his way. That would also be humble obedience.
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I missed your post. That would have made mine much shorter! 🙂

This is a chance to show the youth the true meaning of obedience.
 
I see that some people here have been denied communion for kneeling.
Several years ago the Vatican received complaints from a diocese in Texas that people were being denied communion because they were kneeling. The Vatican sent a very forceful letter to the bishop saying that this had to stop, the faithful having a right to communion. In fact, the Vatican said that if they received any more complaints from this diocese they would take strong action about it.
In fact, if I this happened to me several times, I would, after talking to the parish priest, no action were taken, write to the Vatican congragation in charge of the liturgy. The Vatican has insisted that laypeople have a right to appeal to them in this way.
 
Joe_5859 said:
Okay, I realize I am about to voice an unpopular position, so I have already assumed the ducking position. (But should I kneel in order to duck or stand and duck? I still haven’t decided. ;))

We should start with the passage from the GIRM in question. Here is what GIRM 160 says (in part; emphasis added):

I should say, first off, that I fully understand the desire to kneel to receive Communion. I sincerely wish that that was the norm (and it may soon be). And, of course, the Eucharist should never be denied to someone who kneels (nor should they receive even the threat of denial).

However, for whatever reason in the United States, the norm is to stand while we receive Communion. If the Pope is making it standard to kneel for the reception of the Eucharist at the papal liturgies, well that is certainly his right. Perhaps that means that a change is coming. But the fact remains, we are not there yet, at least not in the U.S.

All the GIRM says is that the norm is standing. There is no little asterisk saying that people may also kneel if they wish. All that is said is that they shouldn’t be denied for kneeling. These are two very different things. Of course the Church is not in the practice of denying Communion to anyone based solely on posture. That would be quite silly. But I find it very telling that the GIRM does not say something like “People may kneel for the reception of Holy Communion if they wish” or “The local bishop may make an exception for his diocese by allowing people to kneel for the reception of Holy Communion.” Nothing of the sort is stated.

Further, it goes on to say that instances where people kneel should be addressed pastorally, providing those who kneel with catechesis on why standing is the norm. Thus, the GIRM asks priests to confront those who kneel and explain to them the norm. So no one should feel offended if the priests asks to speak with them after Mass. They are just following the GIRM.

Now, is it the place of the Youth Minister to do this? I don’t know. Maybe the pastor asked him to. In any case, by virtue of his position (appointed by the pastor), the Youth Minister is (in part) responsible for the catechesis of the youth of the parish. The fact that the OP works for him indicates that the OP is also in a leadership position (not to mention the fact that the Youth Minister is responsible for those who work under him). As such, I find it reasonable for the Youth Minister to expect that the OP respect and follow the norms established by the bishops.

Do some priests take it too far by threatening to deny Communion, or by inappropriately confronting the person about it during Mass? Sure. And they shouldn’t do that. But it is their right, nay, their duty as a pastor to ask that their parishioners follow the norms established in the GIRM.

In my mind, the real issue here** is fidelity** to those who have legitimate authority over us. What a great example we can be to those around us by saying, “Yes, I believe it is more proper to kneel to receive Our Lord in the Eucharist. But I humbly submit myself to the norms established by my local bishops, because their authority comes from Christ, and my obedience to them is obedience to Christ.” I believe that that is what we are called to do.
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Yes fidelity to those who have legitimate authority over us—and this authority is Rome. No one should be placed in a position where “fidelity” to another does not at the same time mean fidelity to the highest authority – being the Apostolic See. The break in the line of obedience ( fidelity to priest/bishop does not equal obedience to the Apostolic See) in itself means the undermining of the hierarchiall/authoritative nature of the Church.
 
Joe_5859 said:
I missed your post. That would have made mine much shorter! 🙂

This is a chance to show the youth the true meaning of obedience.
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The OP is under no obedience to the Youth Minister. Lay people are not religious and henceforth owe no OBEDIENCE whatsoever to one another.

The Pastor should fire that Youth Minister and get one that is obedient to the authentic teachings of our Catholic faith.

It never ceases to amaze me how on these threads that no matter what outrageous problem may occur to a person that someone here will side with them.
 
It seems to me today that people have problems with authority. If you are in a position of leadership, you should be obediant to those in authority over you. Hamburgler was not denied communion. The youth minister told her that she was not supposed to be doing this. As stated, the norm is standing in the United States. When you are working in a position for the church and setting examples for the youth especially, you should follow the norms and do what is asked of you within reason.
 
childofmary1143 said:
The OP is under no obedience to the Youth Minister. Lay people are not religious and henceforth owe no OBEDIENCE whatsoever to one another.

The Pastor should fire that Youth Minister and get one that is obedient to the authentic teachings of our Catholic faith.

It never ceases to amaze me how on these threads that no matter what outrageous problem may occur to a person that someone here will side with them.
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You still have obedience to your bishop and it is stated that standing is the NORM for the United States and that if someone is kneeling that communion should not be denied but should be dealt with pastorally. When you are working in a leadership role over youth, you have to show respect for others in authoritative positions. If you don’t then the youth will not have any respect for you. I am a catechist and am responsible for preparing children for their first communion. If I was teaching the children something that is different from the norm, I would expect for the priest or DRE to correct me on it.
 
Lee_M said:
It seems to me today that people have problems with authority. If you are in a position of leadership, you should be obediant to those in authority over you. Hamburgler was not denied communion. The youth minister told her that she was not supposed to be doing this. As stated, the norm is standing in the United States. When you are working in a position for the church and setting examples for the youth especially, you should follow the norms and do what is asked of you within reason.
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However, what you are forgetting to note is that while the norm in the United States calls for standing, kneeling is universal, and it is a perfectly legitimate posture. The Vatican will always rule on the side of kneeling, as has been evidenced before. Therefore, you need to have both sides of the coin and it is also good for the youth to know that it is also within their right to receive Holy Communion kneeling.

It’s funny. Rome has spoken definitively on this isuse, but, there are those who will ignore what the Holy See has said and circumvent the authority of the CDWDS.
 
hamburglar said:
For the past year or so, I have been kneeling to receive Communion. I have not been told not to, although it takes some of the EMHC’s by surprise sometimes.

Anyway, this week the high-schoolers in the youth group are doing “Service Week” where we volunteer in the local community. We have College kids chaperone, as well as parent volunteers. I am one of the college chaperones.

We were at Mass today, and like usual, I knelt to receive Communion. As I was walking back to my seat, the youth minister asked to see me. He said that I was not allowed to kneel and that “we don’t do that here.” I stated that the documents say the one cannot be denied Communion because of kneeling, and he said that is not true. (By the way, GIRM 160 DOES in fact say that.) He made it seem like I was “breaking the rules.” He explained that he wasn’t criticizing me, he said that it simply was not allowed and didn’t want a scene to occur. I can somewhat understand the part about the scene.

Now, I realize that the norm is standing. But the GIRM does in fact say that I cannot be denied Communion because I am kneeling. What should I do about this?
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Follow Your heart my friend.
Will you obey God, or Man.
Your Heart obviously convicts you to kneel.

If their is a “Scene” let it begin with the Youth minister.
You are on solid Ground both by conviction and by Church teaching.

Peace
James
 
Walking_Home said:
Yes fidelity to those who have legitimate authority over us—and this authority is Rome. No one should be placed in a position where “fidelity” to another does not at the same time mean fidelity to the highest authority – being the Apostolic See. The break in the line of obedience ( fidelity to priest/bishop does not equal obedience to the Apostolic See) in itself means the undermining of the hierarchiall/authoritative nature of the Church.
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Your point would be valid if the Holy See had mandated kneeling (or the option to kneel) for the whole world, and the US Bishops ignored it and required the opposite. That is not the case. You seem to be positing the Holy See against the U.S. Bishops.

Like it or not, the U.S. Bishops have legitimate authority over us, and they have specifically (and through all the proper channels, I might add) stated that, in the U.S., standing is the norm for the reception of Holy Communion.

Frankly, I cannot see how knowingly failing to stand for Communion is not an act of disobedience to our bishops, and ultimately the pope. The GIRM was published by the Holy See and all the adaptations for use in the U.S. were approved by the Holy See. If the Pope had a problem with it, he would issue a statement making a change that is binding on the whole Latin Rite. If he has not done that, I can only assume that he would ask us to be obedient to the bishops in union with him that are our local ordinaries.
 
Lee_M said:
It seems to me today that people have problems with authority. ** If you are in a position of leadership, you should be obediant to those in authority over you.** Hamburgler was not denied communion. The youth minister told her that she was not supposed to be doing this. As stated, the norm is standing in the United States. When you are working in a position for the church and setting examples for the youth especially, you should follow the norms and do what is asked of you within reason.
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You are mixing power and authority. Authority is witness to the truth. The person in power that made the comment was not a witness to the truth. Just because someone has power over you that does not mean that you have to obey, just look at the story of Antigone. Finally the norm is not a normative (positive law, not as in good law but as in “posit”) but just an accepted common (normal) behavior and it does not have any legal implication in canon law.
 
JRKH said:
Follow Your heart my friend.
Will you obey God, or Man.
Your Heart obviously convicts you to kneel.

If their is a “Scene” let it begin with the Youth minister.
You are on solid Ground both by conviction and by Church teaching.

Peace
James
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You forget that the Youth minister is her boss and if she is being insubordinate to authority, the parish would have every right to dismiss her from her duties.
 
Lee_M said:
You forget that the Youth minister is her boss and if she is being insubordinate to authority, the parish would have every right to dismiss her from her duties.
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Heresy is insubordination to the authority, disobedience is insubordination to power.
 
Cristiano said:
You are mixing power and authority. Authority is witness to the truth. The person in power that made the comment was not a witness to the truth. Just because someone has power over you that does not mean that you have to obey, just look at the story of Antigone. Finally the norm is not a normative (positive law, not as in good law but as in “posit”) but just an accepted common (normal) behavior and it does not have any legal implication in canon law.
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I feel that our bishops do have the authority and it is from the authority of our bishops here in the United States that we should stand while receiving communion. If I was an employee of the parish, I would do what was asked of me as long as it was within reason. I believe following the GIRM would be within reason.
 
childofmary1143 said:
The OP is under no obedience to the Youth Minister. Lay people are not religious and henceforth owe no OBEDIENCE whatsoever to one another.

The Pastor should fire that Youth Minister and get one that is obedient to the authentic teachings of our Catholic faith.

It never ceases to amaze me how on these threads that no matter what outrageous problem may occur to a person that someone here will side with them.
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Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I am in no way saying that the OP owes undying obedience to the Youth Minister, though if the OP accepted a position working for a Youth Minister, she certainly does owe the Youth Minister some degree of obedience (as anyone owes to their boss). The statements of the Youth Minister do not carry weight because they come from the Youth Minister. They carry weight because they come from the GIRM, and the GIRM carries weight because it was approved by the Holy See (along with all adaptations that are unique to the United States).

The obedience I was speaking of, primarily, is obedience to the Church. We owe obedience to the Pope and our local bishops in union with him. If our local bishops ask us to do something that is not prohibited by the Holy See (and in fact, was at some time approved by the Holy See else it never would have been included in the GIRM to begin with), then we should obey them.

I’m not sure how anyone could rationalize doing anything less. How can we shirk our obedience to our local bishops and claim it is due to our obedience to the pope? The pope would never ask us to disobey our local bishop (unless our local bishop broke union with him or was asking us to do something contrary to the faith, which is obviously not the case here, else the adaptations in the GIRM would never have been approved).
 
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