I got in trouble for kneeling to receive Communion

[childofmary1143]

You may be absolutely, 100% correct that is is “not fair” and “truly sad”. And we can lament the situation until we’re blue in the face, but I don’t think that’s helpful to the OP. The OP still has to answer for himself whether he is willing to take the chance that he “take the bullet” and lose his position in his parish.

Perhaps the OP posesses the necessary oratory skills and the YM the necessary disposition that he may change his mind based on the OP’s testimony. Short of that, the options (as I see them) are to either (1) accept the fact that you probably will be fired, (2) accept the fact that your future dealings with the YM will be strained and difficult (if you get the pastor’s support and do not get fired), or (3) change the posture in which you receive the Eucharist.

Am I missing any?

Yes. Someone above the chain of command of the YM (be it the Priest, Bishop or Vatican) fire the YM and hire the OP as the new YM or get someone who is obedient to the teachings of our faith to work with the OP.

If anybody deserves to be fired it should be the YM. After the 2nd meeting where the YM was adamant about his position, he removed **any reasonable **possibility of him staying on.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think you correct with those options.

I would add that #3 could include receiving last in line.

#1 is most likely

#3 could include that, but, for all we know, the YM might find that to be an unacceptable compromise and fire him anyway. It might be worth asking about, though.

I guess another option that I hadn’t thought of is that the YM is bluffing and the firing is an empty threat. Whether the OP wants to test that theory is up to him.

 

[childofmary1143]

Many people seem to be arguing as though the OP’s YM is trying to make his own opinion binding on everyone. I think that’s a bit of an unfair presumption. It seems that the YM (however poorly and callously he has gone about it) is trying to maintain what is in the GIRM (and perhaps what he was taught by the pastor). Not everyone knows about the norms in other countries or obscure letters from the CDWDS (which I couldn’t even find on the official Vatican website). I’m not trying to denigrate these things, but we cannot assume that everyone has the same knowledge of all the same Church statements that we do.

That is a good point but going on what the OP has said, he doesn’t seem open to the remote possibility that he is wrong. That is a very bad attitude to have no matter who taught you.

Also I wouldn’t advise the OP to write the Vatican or the Bishop first as that would be overstepping boundaries.

 

[childofmary1143]

#3 could include that, but, for all we know, the YM might find that to be an unacceptable compromise and fire him anyway. It might be worth asking about, though.

I guess another option that I hadn’t thought of is that the YM is bluffing and the firing is an empty threat. Whether the OP wants to test that theory is up to him.

I think the OP wouldn’t mind being the last one up the line. As a person who kneels for communion for the past 20 years I do it and have no problem.

If the YM is “bluffing” about firing, then I would still fire him as the YM is abusing his authority.

 

[Joe_5859]

Yes. Someone above the chain of command of the YM (be it the Priest, Bishop or Vatican) fire the YM and hire the OP as the new YM or get someone who is obedient to the teachings of our faith to work with the OP.

Okay, that would likely be the pastor (unless maybe there is a DRE to whom the YM reports). The bishop would not intervene and ask for the YM to be fired unless this was just one example in a long, long pattern of well-documented bad behavior. The Vatican would only intervene to say that the OP can’t be denied Communion. As far as I know, it would be unprecedented that the Vatican would step in over personnel issues at an individual parish. If they were to start such practices, I’d much rather them start with the Theology departments of certain Catholic Colleges, and diocesan chancery buildings!

You do raise a legitimate question the OP can ask himself: How likely is it that the pastor would fire the YM over this? Again, unless this was just one example in a long string of well-documented, bad behavior, it seems unlikely that the pastor would fire the YM over this. But I suppose it’s possible.

 

[Joe_5859]

That is a good point but going on what the OP has said, he doesn’t seem open to the remote possibility that he is wrong. That is a very bad attitude to have no matter who taught you.

I think that we can all agree with that!

That’s the trouble with other people, we just can’t control how they act!

 

[childofmary1143]

I would like to think that someone there in authority say to the YM:

"You are wrong about kneeling for communion. Mr. ‘hamburglar’ is entitled to kneel without any negative comments from you. You have no right to threaten to fire him from helping in Youth Ministry and as a matter of reality, you could be fired for saying that.

What have you got to say for yourself…"

If he realizes what he did and is sincere and profusely apologises to the OP then that should be the end of it.

I am no Priest, have no experience in running a parish but I think that would be the best thing to happen before it gets out of control.

 

[Michael_Neal]

I would bring it up with the Priest, if the Priest agrees with the YM I would go to another parish and apply to a seminary in another diocese where they won’t chastise you for being traditional.

Use this as an opportunity to see what you getting into with your diocese, you could end up having a miserable time as a priest if this is how your Bishop thinks.

If I were to consider being a priest I would absolutely go to a new diocese, my Pastor is very good, but my Bishop is [edited].

 

[Joe_5859]

I would like to think that someone there in authority say to the YM:

"You are wrong about kneeling for communion. Mr. ‘hamburglar’ is entitled to kneel without any negative comments from you. You have no right to threaten to fire him from helping in Youth Ministry and as a matter of reality, you could be fired for saying that.

What have you got to say for yourself…"

If he realizes what he did and is sincere and profusely apologises to the OP then that should be the end of it.

I am no Priest, have no experience in running a parish but I think that would be the best thing to happen before it gets out of control.

That is certainly one way the pastor could choose to handle the situation if the OP informs him of what transpired. If nothing else, the way that the YM handled the situation probably deserves to be addressed. Would the priest respond that way? I don’t know. Sad as the reality might be, it would probably come down to who has the better relationship with the pastor: the YM or the OP.

 

[childofmary1143]

That is certainly one way the pastor could choose to handle the situation if the OP informs him of what transpired. If nothing else, the way that the YM handled the situation probably deserves to be addressed. Would the priest respond that way? I don’t know. Sad as the reality might be, it would probably come down to who has the better relationship with the pastor: the YM or the OP.

Well lets not presume to speculate as to the possible reactions would be of the Priest.

 

[ethelzguy]

[Edited]

Bottom line. The OP must decide whether it’s worth the price to be “right”.

If being “right” matters above all else, then by all means pursue it to whatever end that might be.

If it’s more important to retain the position within the youth program, then perhaps the OP should choose another battle.

It is easy for an unattached person on a keyboard in cyberspace to get all riled up in self-righteous indignation, even if they are 100% in the right…because they don’t have to live with the consequences.

 

[MrS]

I think the OP wouldn’t mind being the last one up the line. As a person who kneels for communion for the past 20 years I do it and have no problem.

If the YM is “bluffing” about firing, then I would still fire him as the YM is abusing his authority.

The OP’s “job” ends this week anyway.

This is a mute point. Except for this week, he is a volunteer.

 

[Joe_5859]

Well lets not presume to speculate as to the possible reactions would be of the Priest.

Point taken.

[Edited]

Bottom line. The OP must decide whether it’s worth the price to be “right”.

If being “right” matters above all else, then by all means pursue it to whatever end that might be.

If it’s more important to retain the position within the youth program, then perhaps the OP should choose another battle.

It is easy for an unattached person on a keyboard in cyberspace to get all riled up in self-righteous indignation, even if they are 100% in the right…because they don’t have to live with the consequences.

That’s some mighty fine nutshelling, ethelzguy!

The OP’s “job” ends this week anyway.

This is a mute point. Except for this week, he is a volunteer.

Well, then I guess we (or at least I) have been approaching the whole conversation from the wrong angle. Live and learn!

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Universal norm is to kneel OR STAND ACCORDING TO THE INSTRUCTIONS OF THE BISHOPS CONFERENCE.

Hand or tongue is an option of the communicant. posture is instructed by the bishops. Kneeling is allowed in the US, but the norm is standing.

Lux

So, what is it that you are trying to say? No one is saying that you can’t stand, but some are trying to say that we cannot kneel. So, what is the point you are trying to make in the above quote.

 

[Michael_Neal]

[Edited]

Bottom line. The OP must decide whether it’s worth the price to be “right”.

If being “right” matters above all else, then by all means pursue it to whatever end that might be.

If it’s more important to retain the position within the youth program, then perhaps the OP should choose another battle.

It is easy for an unattached person on a keyboard in cyberspace to get all riled up in self-righteous indignation, even if they are 100% in the right…because they don’t have to live with the consequences.

I think you have completely missed it, it is not about being right it is about not changing how you worship just to fit someone else’s preferences.

You are allowed to kneel for communion, The Vatican has said so plainly. The Pope himself prefers kneeling in his masses.

So nobody can tell you not to kneel, not a YM, not a priest, and not even a Bishop.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Jesus gave himself to us to eat and drink. I chew. The thin white flour hosts of my childhood have been replaced by thick, whole wheat hosts and in several parishes where I’ve worshipped by parish baked bread (unleavened, licit). The bread, particularly, is impossible to swallow without chewing.

Once again, I am truly sorry for my judging all of those whose teeth are touching the Host. I was referring to those who are obviously clueless…noted by the other things that they do while “chomping” on the Host. I was incorrect for adding you to that judgement. I am sorry. I was wrong.

 

[Michael_Neal]

Hey Moderator, my post at the top of the page was edited for being “derogatory” and now looks like I said something worse than I actually said. I would rather you removed the entire post please than make it out to look like I said something obscene or something. Especially since I use my real name when I post.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

That makes absolutely no sense. How can a norm be UNIVERSAL if it’s forbidden in 1/2 the countries on this planet? Nowhere is it forbidden to kneel for Communion but it’s certainly forbidden to stand in many countries.

Once more, I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing THIS out to me. I didn’t pay enough attention to the fact that it is forbidden to stand. I wish it was here, but I do not want to stand in judgement of what is ALLOWED in the USA. I will say that no one has right to take away my decision to kneel. Thank you. I will keep in mind what you said, as it certainly applies to me. I prefer to kneel.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

As I said, sometimes it is best to give up a right, especially when you wish to work for someone who does not believe there is a right. Did you read the response from Fr McNamara in the Zenit article?

I personally prefer standing, but I do kneel, if I attend a Mass where kneeling is the practice.

And I do resent the attitude of some who prefer kneeling, saying that this is more reverent.

Lux

We are not called to give up reverence simply because someone else is uncomfortable being around it. It is their problem to deal with, not ours. A right is a right simply because it should not be able to be given up or taken away. It means that the person with the right should not have to give in to someone who is in the wrong. Why is it that tolerance is something we should practice…and it would be going in the opposite way of reverence; but those who scream at us to be tolerant are demanding we do things their way. That is not tolerance!!!

 

[Michael_Neal]

and many of those telling us that we should not kneel to be in obedience with the US Bishops are the same people who are disobedient to the Church on a variety of moral issues, all of which are much more grave than one’s decision to either stand or kneel during communion.