I got in trouble for kneeling to receive Communion

[onetimeposter]

Canada is becoming a scary place for Roman Catholics. I am continuing to hear more and more Roman Catholics losing their ability to practice their faith in accordance with Rome.

Canada is the opposite of a scary place…it is a great society, peaceful people, hockey and universal health care.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

He did mention that he is concerned about keeping his position.

I am speaking of a resolution to a problem, and reverence, not about being right.

Lux

To allow the youth minister the authority in this matter will only allow the youth minister more of a reign in the Church. This is not good for the parish. How many others have been kicked out of or felt forced out of the youth program, or the parish for that matter because this youth minister has taken it upon himself to police the parish for things that…althought according to Rome they are correct and acceptable…the youth minister wanted to change?

His position should not be in any danger. I would go above his head as far as it is to Rome if need be. The kids in this parish deserve to know and be lead by someone from the Roman Catholic Church…not the one from the youth minister.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

There is of course another way to handle it. If he is fired or forced out by bad relatioships due to this, he could write a letter to all of the parents and teenagers in the youth program.
He could enclose in it the letter from Rome that explicitly states that anyone who recieved in the kneeling position is perfectly in their right to do so.
And he could explain exactly what happened, what was said on both sides of the argument, and what the result was.
At least in doing this, parents and teens will be aware of what is going on in the parish. And they can decide for themselves.
I have left parishes where my reverent behaviour was totally unwelcomed. I found other parishes during the years who are in total accordance with Rome.

And he will NEVER get a job in his field, and probably have trouble getting into a seminary.

You just don’t do what you are suggesting. Hamburglar has a choice.—stay with this group or kneel to receive HC. The person in charge has made this perfectly clear, and even if he could get his cake and eat it too, it would be a shallow victory—I sincerely doubt he will get the support from the parents, or even the kids in disregarding the request of the youth minister.

Lux

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

It clearly IS the same.

Someone exercising their just right, and then getting offended when someone else takes note in a manner they don’t like.

It is nowhere near the same. One is immodesty, and creates the occasion of sin. There is nothing else that it does.
Kneeling to recieve Jesus for the point of being reverant to Our Lord Jesus as we recieve Him creates no occasion of sin. It is good.

 

[benedictgal]

You have really crossed the line here.

Standing is NOT giving up reverence. This is just the attitude which causes people to believe that kneelers are just trying to say," Look at me–I am so much more reverent than you"

Lux

Lux, you have gotten it wrong. Have you not read the words of the Holy Father, the homily he preached for the Solemnity of Corpus Christi which explained the issue of kneeling?

At this point we cannot forget the beginning of the “Decalogue”, the Ten Commandments, where it is written: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex 20: 2-3). Here we find the meaning of the third constitutive element of Corpus Christi: kneeling in adoration before the Lord. Adoring the God of Jesus Christ, who out of love made himself bread broken, is the most effective and radical remedy against the idolatry of the past and of the present. Kneeling before the Eucharist is a profession of freedom: those who bow to Jesus cannot and must not prostrate themselves before any earthly authority, however powerful. We Christians kneel only before God or before the Most Blessed Sacrament because we know and believe that the one true God is present in it, the God who created the world and so loved it that he gave his Only Begotten Son (cf. Jn 3: 16). We prostrate ourselves before a God who first bent over man like the Good Samaritan to assist him and restore his life, and who knelt before us to wash our dirty feet. Adoring the Body of Christ, means believing that there, in that piece of Bread, Christ is really there, and gives true sense to life, to the immense universe as to the smallest creature, to the whole of human history as to the most brief existence. Adoration is prayer that prolongs the celebration and Eucharistic communion and in which the soul continues to be nourished: it is nourished with love, truth, peace; it is nourished with hope, because the One before whom we prostrate ourselves does not judge us, does not crush us but liberates and transforms us.

Furthermore, there is an addendum to the standing posture that nobody, not even the proponents of thsi posture, have noted in their posts:

1. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood

Notice, that this particular provision for reverence is not directed towards those who are kneeling; rather, it kicks in for those who receive Communion standing. Yes, standing is the norm, but, along with standing, reverence needs to be made.

When you kneel to receive Holy Communion, you are already adopting a posture of reverence, hence, you don’t bow or genuflect because you are already on your knees.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Hamburglar -
You’ve gotten some great responses - probably better than I could.
I’d be in the midst of distress - wanting to KNEEL as I was taught - not wanting to be disobedient - trying to do what I FEEL is appropriate - and then embarrassed at having been reverent brought to my attention - but also, I think I would have made a stink - not on the premises but afterwards / elsewhere. I don’t know how we’re supposed to not be in argument where Our Lord is concerned and yet stand up for ideals…and would appreciate a priest, cleric - or Deacon Ed (I havent’ read all replies so maybe he’s answered you) - someone could advise us.

Phernie has given you a quote, which solves it ROYALLY.

But while I don’t think The Blessed Sacrament should be in midst of debate - it’s difficult for me and yet - I’d tell them - offsite, of course - “who made you Pope?”…To the “we don’t do that here” - I’d say 'isn’t this a Catholic Church? We kneel to Our Savior." But I’d hesitate putting Our Lord’s name in the midst of an argument / dispute.

I’ve watched more inconsistences when it comes to receiving in the hand - where people don’t seem to have the reverence / understanding to some point…at least kneeling…BRINGS us to the point of understanding that this isn’t just something EXTRAordinary …something Holy.

I find it amazing. We’ve gotten so adamant about being democratically ecumenical in various situations - unless reverence comes into play - then, suddenly there’s rules limiting our displaying it. Sorry, but this got me upset.

Certainly, someone invite DeaconEd into the conversation. That’s a great idea. And PAX, also.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I have left parishes where my reverent behaviour was totally unwelcomed. I found other parishes during the years who are in total accordance with Rome.

How many? Self righteous and judgemental is not what I call reverent. I feel the communion procession is far more reverent than some of the behavior described here (including lobbying against a person in authority because they disagree with you)
Lux

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

[Edited]

First off where did it say there was 700 people lined up for communion in this incident?

Where does it say that the OP was at the front of the line?

As for disruptions, a baby crying, can be disruptive, so should babies be banned from the church then?

[Edited]

There are many ways to be reverent and kneeling for communion is at the top of it.

Thank you so much for saying that. I failed in my obligation to take my children to Mass for almost 8 years. A big part of that was because I didn’t want to keep causing disruptions. It hurt me very much when the lady in front of me asked me to keep them quiet when they were being well behaved and not causing anyone else around them disruptions. I am a single mom with 3 boys who were all born within 2 years and 13 days. And there were no multiple births. So they were quite a handful.
It has been wonderful to have the priest and those in the congregation tell me…“No, don’t leave. We want both you and the kids here. They are not a problem.” They showed the love of Christ. They showed tolerance…the way tolerance should be shown.
If my children weren’t considered a problem for any except one lady, then kneeling to recieve Jesus is certainly not a problem. And tough for anyone who has a problem with kneeling or my kids. I do the best I can with them. And they are usually very well behaved considering that they didn’t grow up going to Church, and that they are only 6, 7, & 8.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Furthermore, there is an addendum to the standing posture that nobody, not even the proponents of thsi posture, have noted in their posts:

When you kneel to receive Holy Communion, you are already adopting a posture of reverence, hence, you don’t bow or genuflect because you are already on your knees.

I see==a procession is not reverent? You pick & choose what you think serves your agenda.

How about posting the universal norm (with the proper punctuation)

Lux

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I suggest that hamburgler respond to the numbers, the particular Mass in question, and more detail as to this particular request. Perhaps there is more to the story.

In any event, h/b should know that if his priestly vocation is real, he will face much greater opposition and “anger” than this.

.

That is why I thought that this is one thing that Jesus is using to show how much He loves H/b and how important it is for him to know that Jesus needs those who are willing to fight on the side of Christ Jesus. Because, even among the members of the Church, there is a battle going on. It will get much worse before Jesus sets it all to right. We need to be on Christ’s Side. And reverence to Christ in the Eucharist is certainly something that Christ approves of.

 

[MrS]

It seems that there are so many rules in the RCC that everyone gets confused?!

Boy, ain’t that the truth… good thing we have the Catechism and the Magisterium to sort things out, instead of listening just to non-Catholics, and many poorly catechised Catholics tell everyone who will listen what it is that the CHURCH teaches

 

[ToHimthroughher]

Actually, standing or kneeling as instructed by the conference of bishops is the universal norm.

A letter (which does not supercede the GIRM) has recognized the right of any communicant to receive kneeling, but the norm in the US has mentioned they be instructed in the norm of standing.

If you believe that this would indicate that Jesus (who died, rather than defy local custom) would be pleased by kneeling in disregard of the request of a priest or superior, then kneel. It is your right.

Lux

You think Jesus died because he wouldn’t upset local custom? You might want to re-read the Gospels. He was crucified for defying local customs!

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Okay, so you are suggesting he prepare to take this issue all the way to the Vatican. But what does he do in the meantime? Forefeit his position as youth minister? Forgo his service of the youth in his parish for whom he could be a positive role model? And if he’s serious about becoming a priest, does he really want his bishop to think of him as one of those people who are constantly griping about their rights being violated? That could certainly put up a stumbling block when he applies for seminary.

And if he does take it all the way to the top, what then? The Vatican writes him a nice note saying exactly the same thing they’ve said before, “You cannot be denied Communion for kneeling.” Will the Vatican step in and issue a pontifical decree getting him his Youth Ministy job back? Highly doubtful.

So this advice doesn’t really help Hamburglar at all. He still has to decide what’s more important: serving the youth, or receiving while kneeling.

Taking and fighting for the side of the right has always been difficult, as Jesus is the Perfect Example of this. Just as were those in the early Church who died rather than give in to the wrong side. The history of the Roman Catholic Church is filled with the wrongs done by others as we are striving to do what is right in the eyes of God.
His vocation will not be lost if he goes all the way to the Bishop and the Bishop disagrees with him. There are other archdiocese. And there are other things for him to be involved with if it comes down to it. No, it isn’t what he wants to happen, nor do I want for it to happen. But it would be better than bowing down to the wrong demands and threats of the youth minister. He has to set a precedent for what he will allow the enemy to force him to do, and what he will fight for. If he didn’t think this was important, he would not be so upset or even considering it to be a dilema.

 

[japhy]

Notice, that this particular provision for reverence is not directed towards those who are kneeling; rather, it kicks in for those who receive Communion standing. Yes, standing is the norm, but, along with standing, reverence needs to be made.

When you kneel to receive Holy Communion, you are already adopting a posture of reverence, hence, you don’t bow or genuflect because you are already on your knees.

That’s an excellent observation; for those of you who might question what benedictgal is basing that on, here is the Latin of the GIRM: Cum autem stantes communicant, commendatur ut debitam reverentiam, ab iisdem normis statuendam, ante susceptionem Sacramenti faciant. Roughly translated: “However, when receiving communion standing, it is recommended that the appropriate reverence, according to the same norms to be established (referring to the Conference of Bishops establishing norms of posture for receiving Communion), be made before receiving the Sacrament.”

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

You’re certainly determined. Perhaps this isn’t helping the situation. I’d say if there are kids involved, you should take what’s in their best interest to heart first. After all, if this is a collective youth experience, it’s all about the kids, and not the adults attending to them. Give that some thought.

Another good point. That means that H/b should certainly do all he can to stop the youth minister from controlling his posture when recieving Holy Communion. The youth minister should be told that he has no authority to gainsay Rome, especially when he is in a position over kids. He cannot go around forcing kids to stand rather than kneel (as Rome has said that they are certainly free to do) or face being kicked out of the youth group. The youth minister has to be stopped dead in his tracks…because he is hurting the youth, bringing them farther away from God rather than closer to him. The kids need to be protected from the youth minister.

 

[japhy]

I see == a procession is not reverent? You pick & choose what you think serves your agenda. How about posting the universal norm (with the proper punctuation).

In the US, the Bishops have said that a bow of head is the required sign of reverence to be made before receiving Holy Communion, so no, walking up in procession is not “reverent enough”.

As for the universal norm, I posted a bit of it in my reply to benedictgal, but I’ll show the whole thing here; this is the Latin (universal) GIRM 160:

Sacerdos deinde accipit patenam vel pyxidem, et accedit ad communicandos, qui de more processionaliter appropinquant. Non licet ipsis fidelibus panem consecratum neque calicem sacrum per semetipsos accipere eo minus de manu in manum inter se transmittere. Fideles communicant genuflexi vel stantes, prout Conferentia Episcoporum statuerit. Cum autem stantes communicant, commendatur ut debitam reverentiam, ab iisdem normis statuendam, ante susceptionem Sacramenti faciant.

Roughly translated: “The priest then holds the paten or ciborium, and approaches the communicants, who as a rule approach in a procession. It is not licit for the faithful to take the consecrated bread nor the sacred chalice by themselves let alone pass them to one another by hand. The faithful communicate (i.e. receive communion) kneeling or standing, as established by the Conference of Bishops. However when communicating standing, it is recommended that the appropriate reverence, according to the same norms to be established, be made before receiving the Sacrament.”

This is how it reads (as amended in red) in the US Missal:The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

thank you

kneeling or standing, as established by the Conference of Bishops

How many posting here realize what the universal norm actually states?

Lux

 

[rinnie]

This reminds me of My Aunt Helen, God bless her she went to church every day. She would make a poor priests life hell. She never wanted change, and God forbid when it came. She would kneel right in front of everyone (and we knew just for attention) Noone could get along with her NO ONE. My poor sister got stuck with her a home would have killed her. I will never forget the Priest asking her if she could please not kneel, she made such a fuss and threw such a fit. She came from another parish, I will never forget my poor sister, she was so embarresed. She apologized to Father, But thank goodness Father and her had a sense of humor, Father asked one day where did she come from (he meant what parish) My sister said I dont know Father, She was like 87 at the time. But my Sister said GOD DOESNT WANT HER AND THE DEVILS AFRAID SHE WILL TAKE OVER THE PLACE SO UNTIL THEY FIGHT IT OUT IM STUCK WITH HER.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

To conform with the rest of the Communicants would be a demonstration of personal humility, as opposed to making a statement.

Any way you slice it or dice it…acting out of conformity WILL get you noticed, regardless of the purity or righteousness of your intentions. That is your choice. Those that march to the beat of their own drummer get noticed. That’s human nature.

In the gospels, we are admonished to comb our hair and wash our faces, etc when we fast, so as not to bring attention to our personal sacrifice(s).

We are also admonished not to be like the pharisees…“I am thankful Lord, that I am not like these other men” (paraphrased).

Let’s just get this straight. The pharisees would have been the youth minister, and Jesus would have been fighting them for the Faith of His Father. Being humble in this circumstance means not standing outside the doors at Mass crying out against the youth minister. The humble thing to do in this circumstance is stand up for what is right, despite the consequences which MIGHT occur from that standing. And why would the Bishop think badly of the OP for standing up for what is legally allowed against the youth minister who caused a scene, demanded, and threatened expulsion for doing something which is legally allowed.
And the use of other organizations for help is certainly something which should be considered IF the OP gets no help from the Pastor or the Bishop.
This is one of the many reasons that Bishops and the Vatican are so important. To protect the Faith and the faithful from being dominated by heresy and fallacy.

 

[jmdsc]

In the US, the Bishops have said that a bow of head is the required sign of reverence to be made before receiving Holy Communion, so no, walking up in procession is not “reverent enough”.

As for the universal norm, I posted a bit of it in my reply to benedictgal, but I’ll show the whole thing here; this is the Latin (universal) GIRM 160:

Sacerdos deinde accipit patenam vel pyxidem, et accedit ad communicandos, qui de more processionaliter appropinquant. Non licet ipsis fidelibus panem consecratum neque calicem sacrum per semetipsos accipere eo minus de manu in manum inter se transmittere. Fideles communicant genuflexi vel stantes, prout Conferentia Episcoporum statuerit. Cum autem stantes communicant, commendatur ut debitam reverentiam, ab iisdem normis statuendam, ante susceptionem Sacramenti faciant.

Roughly translated: “The priest then holds the paten or ciborium, and approaches the communicants, who as a rule approach in a procession. It is not licit for the faithful to take the consecrated bread nor the sacred chalice by themselves let alone pass them to one another by hand. The faithful communicate (i.e. receive communion) kneeling or standing, as established by the Conference of Bishops. However when communicating standing, it is recommended that the appropriate reverence, according to the same norms to be established, be made before receiving the Sacrament.”

This is how it reads (as amended in red) in the US Missal:The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.

Help me to understand clearly please.

Could this be interpreted as: if the gesture of reverence is not made (visibly) by the communicant - he/she then could/should be denied? In other words - bowing to the back of the person ahead of you (instead of waiting until you actually get to the head of the line) and the minister does not see you do it the host/blood could be withheld? If the answer to my question is “no”, then please explain why!

I hope I worded that clearly enough…???