I got in trouble for kneeling to receive Communion

[KingAlfred]

Explain to me how in God’s world kneeling would be innapropriate for Communion at a Mass with a bunch of teenagers. There aren’t even any geriatric persons to worry about tripping.
The "if it feels good, do it only applies for sinners. If you want to do something that is good and appropriate and reverant that the Pope himself encourages and does, it must be wrong.
There is something wrong with that thinking, Alfred…something dangerously wrong. The Priest or even the Bishop doesn’t have authority over the Pope and Holy See. And according to the Pope and the Holy See, kneeling is permitted.

I assume this conflict is taking place at a youth-oriented event and appears to be between several adults. The event isn’t about the adults, but the kids. The adults should temporarily ‘shelve’ their differences and focus on the kids. Otherwise, this could distract the kids, set a bad example for them, and derail their spiritual and learning experience. No offense…but I feel the OP is being selfish.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Oh My Please accept my appolgy. If this was on my account please forget what I said. Please understand what my point was. There are some people in this world who can take little things and blow them up because they are very unhappy discontented people. Why I dont know. Know I am speaking just about her. What my point was Priests have such a stressful life. And it is getting harder and more difficult for them every day. We as Christians have to pull together and help them the best we can, and give them the benefit of the doubt. They are wonderful people and cant please everyone. They are doing Gods work and doing the best they can. I only mentioned her because it struck a cord. But I never wanted to make this out to be mean, I just wanted to lighten things up a little and show people another side. And that other side is to be a Priest, A Priest today is supposed to read peoples minds and be perfect. Remember they have a Bad day too. They are called to do Gods work but they are human too. Again please if this is about me im sorry. Please forget what I said.

Priests do have difficulties. Rome should be a comfort to them, but many have it hard no matter. They carry the weight of the world, so to speak, on their shoulders. They need our prayers very much. And we should love them all and show love to them all no matter what.

 

[childofmary1143]

I assume this conflict is taking place at a youth-oriented event and appears to be between several adults. The event isn’t about the adults, but the kids. The adults should temporarily ‘shelve’ their differences and focus on the kids. Otherwise, this could distract the kids, set a bad example for them, and derail their spiritual and learning experience. No offense…but I feel the OP is being selfish.

Selfish?!!

Leave the poor guy alone for crying out loud. Haven’t we martyred our own more than outsiders?

I would suggest you read the OP’s posts on this thread, he is the one who is bearing the brunt for this and if you read his posts, he hasn’t got one bitter bone in him.

Sheesh.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Oh My Please accept my appolgy. If this was on my account please forget what I said. Please understand what my point was. There are some people in this world who can take little things and blow them up because they are very unhappy discontented people. Why I dont know. Know I am speaking just about her. What my point was Priests have such a stressful life. And it is getting harder and more difficult for them every day. We as Christians have to pull together and help them the best we can, and give them the benefit of the doubt. They are wonderful people and cant please everyone. They are doing Gods work and doing the best they can. I only mentioned her because it struck a cord. But I never wanted to make this out to be mean, I just wanted to lighten things up a little and show people another side. And that other side is to be a Priest, A Priest today is supposed to read peoples minds and be perfect. Remember they have a Bad day too. They are called to do Gods work but they are human too. Again please if this is about me im sorry. Please forget what I said.

Priests do have difficulties. Rome should be a comfort to them, but many have it hard no matter. They carry the weight of the world, so to speak, on their shoulders. They need our prayers very much. And we should love them all and show love to them all no matter what.

 

[japhy]

The universal norm is as I have stated. if you look it up, you’ll see the instruction.

Perhaps you have me on ignore… otherwise, you’d see that what the Latin GIRM n. 160 states has been officially and authoritatively interpreted by the CDWDS: when the CDWDS approved the decision of those Conferences which chose “standing”, it did so with the stipulation that kneeling would still be permitted. Kneeling and standing, therefore, are not “equal” in this regard. Wherever the Bishops have decided on “standing”, the CDWDS has allowed kneeling to be retained; we have evidence of no such allowance for those places where the Bishops decided to keep “kneeling” as the custom. See, kneeling must be retained because it was already the traditional posture in the Latin Rite… standing (except in extraordinary circumstances) is not something to be retained because it was not the approved practice at the time!

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I assume this conflict is taking place at a youth-oriented event and appears to be between several adults. The event isn’t about the adults, but the kids. The adults should temporarily ‘shelve’ their differences and focus on the kids. Otherwise, this could distract the kids, set a bad example for them, and derail their spiritual and learning experience. No offense…but I feel the OP is being selfish.

The OP isn’t the one who is being disruptive in this circumstance. Once again, I will say that the youth minister pulled him out as he was returning from recieving Holy Communion. The YOUTH MINISTER was the one causing a scene…not the OP.

How does what the youth minister did in disrupting the youth and the OP as he was returning from Communion and on his way to pray intimately with JESUS being selfish.

Alfred, are you not paying attention, totally out of it in matters of fact, or just trying to argue for the sake of argument? I pray that you aren’t really believing the things I have read from you that are totally contradictory to Rome on this post and on others.

 

[benedictgal]

If the postings from the GIRM weren’t enough, maybe those of you who may have mistaken issues about the universality of kneeling as the norm for receiving Holy Communion should take a look at what Redemptionis Sacramentum has to say on the matter:

[90.] “***The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined”, with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “***However, ***if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms”.176 ***

[91.] In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them”.177 Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.

Kneeling is the default posture here. The issue of standing carries with it the requirement for recognitio from the Holy See. In this case, it was granted to the United States (and other episcopal conferences throughout the world, like the Italian, Mexican, French, Spanish, etc).

Now, note what I put in purple. As I noted in a previous post, if the communicant is to receive Holy Communion standing, some sort of reverence should be made. Notice how this wasn’t mentioned should the communicant opt to kneel. Why?

Kneeling does not come from any culture – it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God. The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word proskynein alone occurs fifty-nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly Liturgy, which is presented to the Church as the standard for her own Liturgy.

…That is why bending the knee before the presence of the living God is something we cannot abandon.

In saying this, we come to the typical gesture of kneeling on one or both knees. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament, the verb barak, “to kneel”, is cognate with the word berek, “knee”. The Hebrews regarded the knees as a symbol of strength, to bend the knee is, therefore, to bend our strength before the living God, an acknowledgment of the fact that all that we are we receive from Him. In important passages of the Old Testament, this gesture appears as an expression of worship.

At the dedication of the Temple, Solomon kneels “in the presence of all the assembly of Israel” (II Chron 6:13). After the Exile, in the afflictions of the returned Israel, which is still without a Temple, Ezra repeats this gesture at the time of the evening sacrifice: “I … fell upon my knees and spread out my hands to the Lord my God” (Ezra 9:5).

…Kneeling is not only a Christian gesture, but a christological one.

This comes from the book, The Spirit of the Liturgy. The author is now the Supreme Pontiff. He hasn’t changed his opinion one iota from the time he wrote that. In fact, he now mandates that those who receive Our Lord from him must do so kneeling and on the tongue.

Finally, we come to the bone of contention, as experienced by the OP, whom I believe does have a vocation to the priesthood (H/b, I think, is a young man; if you aren’t, then, you have a religious vocation that should be nurtured). Under no circumstances does the person in charge of youth ministry have the right to dictate to Hamburglar what the priests and bishops cannot force, namely to forbid someone from receiving Holy Communion kneeling. This right has been ratified by the Vatican on numerous occasions. Furthermore, in the response of the Holy See to the layperson who initiated the complaint, the CDWDS notes that:

It is troubling that you seem to express some reservations about both the propriety and the usefulness of addressing the Holy See regarding this matter. Canon 212 ¶2 of the Code of Canon Law states that “Christ’s faithful are totally free to make known their needs, especially their spiritual ones, and their desire: to the Pastor of the Church”. The canon then continues in ¶3: “According to their own knowledge competence and position, they have the right, and indeed sometimes the duty, to present to the sacred Pastor; their opinions regarding those things that pertain to the good of the Church”… Accordingly, in consideration of the nature of the problem and the relative likelihood that it might or might not be resolved on the local level, every member of the faithful has the right of recourse to the Roman Pontiff either personally or by means of the Dicasteries or Tribunals of the Roman Curia.

Another fundamental right of the faithful, as noted in canon 213, is “the right to receive assistance by the sacred Pastors from the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the Sacraments”. In view of the law that “sacred” ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843 ¶ 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

Please be assured that the Congregation takes this matter very seriously, and is making the necessary contacts in its regard. At the same time, this Dicastery continues to be ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again in the future.

Therefore, not only is the right of the communicant to receive Holy Communion ratified in a letter to the bishops, the CDWDS also reminds the layperson that if they want to receive Holy Communion kneeling, that right should be respected.

 

[MrS]

Earlier in this thread, h/b gave the link to his parish when asked by a poster.

If one feels strongly about this… why not email

… the YM is you disagree (or agree)

… the pastor if you want to know his position

be civil
be short
be concise

be Catholic.

 

[japhy]

… take a look at what Redemptionis Sacramentum has to say on the matter:

…Therefore, it is not licit to deny

I stand (no pun intended) corrected. RS 91 says here that a person who wishes to receive standing is not to be denied for that reason. I retract my statements to the contrary.

 

[hamburglar]

NEW UPDATE:

Okay, guys. I was fired

The YM had asked the pastor, who said that I can receive kneeling. I already knew this, of course, but it then became that if I kneel, I can be fired.

The YM said that he got some e-mails. He said he spent 2 hours this morning dealing with the e-mails instead of the youth. I’m not quite sure why he couldn’t wait a couple of hours when the event was over.

He now says that the main reason I am fired is because “I took this to an outside resource” and this apparently makes him not trust me.

Here’s the summary of the firing: I am not allowed to participate in any events that involve me leading or chaperoning the youth, whether volunteered or paid, for 6 months. At that time, he said he will re-evaluate things, but there are no promises. He also said “I’ll tell you one thing: I will never let you perform any liturgical duties” and he said “what happens if you disagree on the readings? Would you make a scene and then take it outside the parish?”

 

[mullenpm]

In my church we never got rid of the altar rail and, hopefully, some day we will return to using it for its intended purpose.:clapping:

 

[rjs1]

NEW UPDATE:

Okay, guys. I was fired

The YM had asked the pastor, who said that I can receive kneeling. I already knew this, of course, but it then became that if I kneel, I can be fired.

The YM said that he got some e-mails. He said he spent 2 hours this morning dealing with the e-mails instead of the youth. I’m not quite sure why he couldn’t wait a couple of hours when the event was over.

He now says that the main reason I am fired is because “I took this to an outside resource” and this apparently makes him not trust me.

Here’s the summary of the firing: I am not allowed to participate in any events that involve me leading or chaperoning the youth, whether volunteered or paid, for 6 months. At that time, he said he will re-evaluate things, but there are no promises. He also said “I’ll tell you one thing: I will never let you perform any liturgical duties” and he said “what happens if you disagree on the readings? Would you make a scene and then take it outside the parish?”

WHAT!!!

I said I was going to take a break from contributing to Catholic Answers Forums for a while, but this is outrageous. I am appalled that your parish priest would allow this to happen.

You must write a formal letter about this incident to your priest. If this gets no result then write to your bishop.

What you have in fact experienced is that this Youth Leader dictator has fired you even though he knows that you did nothing wrong. He has absolutely abused his power.

As I said at the start: this is outrageous!

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Hamburglar,

I am so sorry this happened.

In hindsight, would you make the same choices if you could go back to the incident?

Does anyone here agree that sometimes it not the best choice to insist on a “right”?

And finally, does anyone here actually believe that Jesus is more pleased by this demonstration of reverence than the norm of standing, especially when those in charge have made their preference known?

I pray that HB can find a parish where he is comfortable with norms, and can serve the youth.

Lux

 

[Phemie]

NEW UPDATE:

Okay, guys. I was fired

The YM had asked the pastor, who said that I can receive kneeling. I already knew this, of course, but it then became that if I kneel, I can be fired.

Your pastor has what for a spine, a wet noodle? Why didn’t he put a stop to this since he knew the norms and was OK with you kneeling?

The YM said that he got some e-mails. He said he spent 2 hours this morning dealing with the e-mails instead of the youth. I’m not quite sure why he couldn’t wait a couple of hours when the event was over.

He now says that the main reason I am fired is because “I took this to an outside resource” and this apparently makes him not trust me.

Because you’ve shown you know how to get at the truth of a matter and the little man is insecure because he’s on shaky ground with his rules.

Here’s the summary of the firing: I am not allowed to participate in any events that involve me leading or chaperoning the youth, whether volunteered or paid, for 6 months. At that time, he said he will re-evaluate things, but there are no promises. He also said “I’ll tell you one thing: I will never let you perform any liturgical duties” and he said “what happens if you disagree on the readings? Would you make a scene and then take it outside the parish?”

This is someone who just can’t admit he’s wrong and can’t see that comparing kneeling for Communion, which is allowed, and disagreeing on the readings, which is not within our purview, is like comparing apples and turnips.

Unfortunately, that doesn’t make you any less fired and doesn’t make your pastor less guilty of not supporting you.

Please don’t get discouraged. Keeping you in my prayers.

 

[MrS]

Ham:

Okay, so you are “fired”. And if you pursue the issue - like gathering groups of young people and working with them - you will be wrong.

The pastor did little wrong… and proobably little right in this case. But the understanding is that the pastor does allow kneeling… and you will continue to kneel, as is your choice.

I strongly suggesst that you choose the last place in line to receive so that if, and I say IF, you choose to kneel for any “longer than normal” time, you will not be interrupting the flow.

I personally do not believe that kneeling is disruptive. You would know better if your kneeling (length of time, etc) is different than what others do when they kneel.

The Youth Director has made his position.

Remember this: The Youth Director has made his position.

It is also clear it is NOT the position of the Catholic Church. So when this situation is discussed… and it will be… you must be civil (which is tough at 18), polite, and well rehearsed in your response.

Additionally, I think most of the parish, from what I understand, will NOT agree with you. Not because they will think the Y/M is correct… but rather they will prefer not returning to “the old days”.

The choice of moving down the road to the more traditional parish may be an option… but if it were me, I would still be visible at the parish.

Remember… you have done nothing, liturgically speaking, wrong or offensive to the Catholic Church. The YM is really not your boss in that area.

Lastly… be honest with yourself. Even if you find it offensive, look at this through the eyes of the YM, the Pastor,etc… and the kids. They are the ones who will be most confused if they are not aware of what the Church teaches.

Be fair, be civil, and pray.

.

 

[Brendan]

Hi Brendan,

Not sure how many of the posts you’ve read, but this is really not about right or wrong, but more about the best choice in a difficult situation.

Lux

Which is best left to the individual based on their spiritual needs.

So I fail to see what the problem is. If someone wants to stand or kneel, they know their spritual needs better than I do.

And the particular posture that another person takes certainly does not impact my own spirtuality, so why should I care in the least what the other person does?

 

[Michael_Neal]

Oh My Please accept my appolgy. If this was on my account please forget what I said. Please understand what my point was. There are some people in this world who can take little things and blow them up because they are very unhappy discontented people. Why I dont know. Know I am speaking just about her. What my point was Priests have such a stressful life. And it is getting harder and more difficult for them every day. We as Christians have to pull together and help them the best we can, and give them the benefit of the doubt. They are wonderful people and cant please everyone. They are doing Gods work and doing the best they can. I only mentioned her because it struck a cord. But I never wanted to make this out to be mean, I just wanted to lighten things up a little and show people another side. And that other side is to be a Priest, A Priest today is supposed to read peoples minds and be perfect. Remember they have a Bad day too. They are called to do Gods work but they are human too. Again please if this is about me im sorry. Please forget what I said.

I apologize for misunderstanding you

 

[japhy]

He now says that the main reason I am fired is because “I took this to an outside resource” and this apparently makes him not trust me. Here’s the summary of the firing: I am not allowed to participate in any events that involve me leading or chaperoning the youth, whether volunteered or paid, for 6 months. At that time, he said he will re-evaluate things, but there are no promises. He also said “I’ll tell you one thing: I will never let you perform any liturgical duties” and he said “what happens if you disagree on the readings? Would you make a scene and then take it outside the parish?”

I am sorry for this turn of events, hamburglar. Pray for the Youth Minister, though, that the Lord would soften his hardened heart.

This is my perspective on his reaction. He is upset to learn he was wrong about kneeling, and that you didn’t simply accept his word. He is upset that you corrected him, because he is your “boss”. He is upset you sought outside help, because it made the issue no longer between just you and him.

I would say he is abusing his position (whatever power it entails).

As for other liturgical matters, what reason does he have to worry, unless he prefers not to do things as the Church prescribes. Heh, if you have an issue with the readings, take it up with the USCCB or the CDWDS; it’s not the Youth Minister’s fault!

I’m praying for you and the Youth Minister.

 

[ethelzguy]

NEW UPDATE:

Okay, guys. I was fired

The YM had asked the pastor, who said that I can receive kneeling. I already knew this, of course, but it then became that if I kneel, I can be fired.

The YM said that he got some e-mails. He said he spent 2 hours this morning dealing with the e-mails instead of the youth. I’m not quite sure why he couldn’t wait a couple of hours when the event was over.

He now says that the main reason I am fired is because “I took this to an outside resource” and this apparently makes him not trust me.

Here’s the summary of the firing: I am not allowed to participate in any events that involve me leading or chaperoning the youth, whether volunteered or paid, for 6 months. At that time, he said he will re-evaluate things, but there are no promises. He also said “I’ll tell you one thing: I will never let you perform any liturgical duties” and he said “what happens if you disagree on the readings? Would you make a scene and then take it outside the parish?”

There is a sad lesson to be learned here. Obtaining advice from anonymous posters (who have nothing to lose) on any internet forum can be risky business.

Being “right” doesn’t always “make right”. All the cut-and-paste in the world can’t undo things now.

I am sorry for your situation.

 

[Joe_5859]

Wow, what a turn of events since yesterday!

and many of those telling us that we should not kneel to be in obedience with the US Bishops are the same people who are disobedient to the Church on a variety of moral issues, all of which are much more grave than one’s decision to either stand or kneel during communion.

Okay, this is an extremely unfair comment to make. What is the purpose of such an unjust and rash generalization? I am certainly in no way disobedient to the Church on any issue and I greatly resent the implication.

There is of course another way to handle it. If he is fired or forced out by bad relatioships due to this, he could write a letter to all of the parents and teenagers in the youth program.(edited for length)

If the OP followed this course of action, it would be a severe turn-off for any of those who receive said letter. Again, it would only have the opposite effect that he is going for: making those who kneel look like “extremists.”

I’ve posted a lot on here but I have to make an observation:

It seems to me that people here who are supporting the YM are giving me the impression that people who like to kneel for Communion:

Are doing it for completely show reasons
Condemning those who stand
Attention seekers

I think that is sinful to make rash judgments about people you really know nothing about and since you aren’t God how can you judge what is in another’s heart?

Do you find it a little ironic that you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of (i.e. “rash judgments”)? I don’t think anyone on this thread is “supporting the YM”. And I have made no such comments that those who kneel are guilty of any of the above. Again, to what end do you vocalize such unfair generalizations?

The Vatican has and I believe would again step up to the plate and order the Bishop to order the Priest to order the youth minister to stop his behaviour or be fired. (edited for length)

If you could give me an example, that would be great. The Vatican won’t even step in to ask for the firing of theology faculty at many Catholic colleges, who are teaching far greater erros than whether or not you can kneel to receive the Eucharist. Why would they step in and demand the firing of a YM at a parish? (Especially since this whole issue is over rubrics, not doctrine).