I guess i'm a bit of a feminist

[shainski]

I’m assuming what you mean is that it is shameful that women don’t yet receive equal pay … and that the embarrassment would be on the part of those who oppose it.

Well, I’m not the poster, but how I read her post was that if feminists hadn’t wasted all their political capital on sexual freedom and abortion, perhaps they would have had more credibility on other issues.

I have to admit that I once bought into all the feminist mumbo jumbo. It all sounded so good - “Women should have the opportunities to do whatever their calling is”. Not all women had the gifts or means to make them great mothers. Some would make great business women, some might make great carpenters. If all women could pursue their own dreams, then the world would be a better place.

And then I started to notice that those same people that painted such a great picture - started condemning women who let them down by having children and actually staying out of the workplace to raise them.

They would criticize Ronald Reagan for having gotten divorced, but not Bill Clinton for having women accusing him of acting in an untoward manner. They would chastise Clarence Thomas for behavior against a coworker, but were okay with Ted Kennedy leaving a woman to die so he wouldn’t be in an untenable position. and on and on and on…

And then I saw that it was all a political ruse. Many of those very women (and some men) were pawns for an end.

It was all shameful - at least to me.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

There are laws already in place that when men and women work the same hours, have the same qualifications and the same education they receive the same pay.

You may disagree here, but some of the basis for the overall discrepancy in our society is that for the most part women take time off work to have children, take care of sick children because they are primarily the single parents (not men), women work more part-time jobs, women work less over-time there are a lot of other factors. What I am saying here is that the breakdown of the family where the father is not in place to support his children is a primary reason for this; NOT deliberate discrimination of women as many would have people believe but this is not talked about much, instead we try and blame the government and want them to pass laws when instead we need to be building up family life!

When you have two people working a job and one is a single mother and the other is a single man with no children…who is going to work overtime, work extra hours and get promotions? Who is going to have to call in sick to take care of a child? Who is going to have to take days off for teacher conferences? It doesn’t take long to figure out after five years who is going to be making more money, and rightly and fairly so. Men simply work more paid hours than women on average and are rewarded so.

Unfortunately the sexual revolution also brought on a huge number of women as single parents with absent-fathers. This gives these women a distinct disadvantage when it comes to their educations, careers and futures. Unfortunately many choose abortions but I applaud those that do not, however I believe this is the cause of “income inequality for women” and not so much deliberate discrimination by employers. Just my two cents.

And yet women make on average of $.77 on every dollar a man earns. This figure does not make a distinction between women with or without children. I also think the line of thinking that the sexual revolution created more single mothers and absent fathers is such an oversimplification that it borders on being all out false.

 

[AnnArbor]

And yet women make on average of $.77 on every dollar a man earns. This figure does not make a distinction between women with or without children. I also think the line of thinking that the sexual revolution created more single mothers and absent fathers is such an oversimplification that it borders on being all out false.

And this is true even when the other factors are taken into account – education, type of job, etc. Additionally, when men enter a field in which positions are predominantly held by women, the men are, on average, paid more.

For the record, I thought the behavior of Clinton, Kennedy and Thomas was all reprehensible. I did not think Ronald Reagan should be criticized for getting divorced.
I am staunchly pro-life. I was a stay-at-home mother for many years.

All that said, I think it is shameful that women are being paid less than men for the same work.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

And this is true even when the other factors are taken into account – education, type of job, etc. Additionally, when men enter a field in which positions are predominantly held by women, the men are, on average, paid more.

For the record, I thought the behavior of Clinton, Kennedy and Thomas was all reprehensible. I did not think Ronald Reagan should be criticized for getting divorced.
I am staunchly pro-life. I was a stay-at-home mother for many years.

All that said, I think it is shameful that women are being paid less than men for the same work.

I agree, I have been known to get a bit irritated when people qualify the very real problem of wage inequality. There is no reason why pay should be unequal based on gender or race. Neither of those are qualifiers for how well a person can produce. That in a nutshell is why I identify as a feminist. 1) People like to clump feminism all together as one large scale thing and it was it was several waves with different focuses and goals and the radical feminists were a very small percentage of the women who who have been fighting for equality.

 

[Galbin]

Let me tell you about my neighbors. They were in their 80’s, had 8 children, who married and had children. I loved to visit them at lunchtime, when they both were sitting at the kitchen table, and see a bouquet of flowers on the table. The phone was always ringing, there were family around to cut the grass, shovel the snow, take the car in for an oil change or put on new tires. Family was always bringing food over and the dad, who had a sweet tooth, had a never ending supply of baking around. I’m not kidding, there always was fresh flowers in the winter and flowers outside in the summer. They loved their family when it was growing, and in their 80s, they enjoyed the extended family, and it was a joy to see.

The dad recently got cancer, and was able to stay home in his final months. He died in his own bed, surrounded by family, with the rosary being recited.

I think we’ve lost this example of family. A husband and wife, married over 60 years, surrounded in love. They never once mentioned their employment and the people there but they had a lot of joy remembering their children. Who took care of them? Their children and grandchildren. My parents have both passed away now, both had cancer. They basically had me, and although I treasure their last years and their last days, it was the lonesomest place on earth to be holding my dad’s hand as he passed on, and left me there by myself, alone. A very different ending to a life.

Now people have 2 children and get sterilized. It’s a very short sighted decision. That’s all we see now and we don’t know any different. I wish you could have been praying the rosary with my neighbor and seen what that was like. He had a blessed life, and may he pray for us.

That is lovely! I hope I am blessed with kids someday.

 

[on_the_hill]

The more quoted figure I have seen is actually .91 an hour (still lower). I didn’t mean to throw the statistic in the mix to oversimplify or insult.

I can’t comment on the 91¢ figure, but today our newspaper reported that our statewide average is around 59¢ to the $1.

 

[grasscutter]

I can’t comment on the 91¢ figure, but today our newspaper reported that our statewide average is around 59¢ to the $1.

And the thing is, equal pay for work of equal value should have nothing to do with feminism. It is a civil rights issue.

I am a woman working in a non-traditional field and I darn well expect to earn the same as my equally skilled male counterparts (then again, since my work ethic and attention to detail are stronger, perhaps I should earn more ). Also, I don’t consider myself to be a feminist.

 

[Mandychu22]

And the thing is, equal pay for work of equal value should have nothing to do with feminism. It is a civil rights issue.

I am a woman working in a non-traditional field and I darn well expect to earn the same as my equally skilled male counterparts (then again, since my work ethic and attention to detail are stronger, perhaps I should earn more ). Also, I don’t consider myself to be a feminist.

Lots of posts I agree with, but this was the last one in the thread so you get quoted!

I’m also a woman in a non-traditional field, although I’m still a student, and I agree 100%. I don’t have to put up with overt sexism, which is a step up from high school, however I do get talked down to by a lot of people. Guys in groups meeting without letting me know, changing my work without asking me about it (I’ve lost too many marks because of this… fortunately they did too and most of them have failed out by now.), professors and TA’s implying that if I have questions about anything it’s clearly because I’m female and therefore less intelligent, and generally assuming I’m less capable. It took a few years, but I’ve finally learned which people to work with and who to avoid. Informal tutoring probably helped a bit too .

I consider myself to be a feminist by the truest sense of the word: I believe women and men should have equal rights and be given equal respect. If I walk into a room with my male friend to propose an idea that he is vaguely familiar with, questions about it should be addressed to me. We’re unfortunately not there yet, even outside of traditionally male fields. The whole ‘don’t worry your pretty little head about it’ attitude is super irritating, and calling people out on it makes me feel like a bit of a witch (with a B). Their reactions certainly imply (or outright state) it.

With that said, modern ‘feminism’ is garbage that limits options for both men and women, and I would hate to be associated with it.

 

[wendiek]

I feel like this issue just keeps going round in circles: the original intent of feminism (a.k.a. first wave feminism) had a noble cause and many great women such as Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony who were ardently pro-life. In fact, even today, there is a wonderful group called Feminists for Life which echoes the same ideals that feminism once was associated with. Lumping several heterogenous individuals under one, uniformly negative blanket term is ridiculous.

Just getting back to this to explain my snarky comment (I’m clearly annoyed by this recent equal pay issue). You are right AtTheCollegeGal: those women were brave, energized, focused and successful. I make the mistake of identifying with the movement of my day, which was political, selective in their focus, and not always “pro-women”. The poster who compared modern politicians behavior and the feminists’ support of them in spite of this is a great example. Too, Sarah Palin was treated very differently from the men, and did you hear the feminists defending her? Not at all - she wasn’t of the proper political persuasion. What is frustrating is the term is meant to wield political clout for all women yet leaves us without a voice in many respects.

 

[wendiek]

I don’t see the connection between ‘equal pay’ and abortion. Can one be a supporter of equal pay and not be a supporter of “choice?”

I don’t know how old you are On The Hill, but abortion has always been at the top of the list on the feminist agenda (in my day anyway). They are related because political clout was all used up on that one issue. Equal pay was part of the ERA movement and in the 70’s there was a big push at the state level for constitutional amendments for equal pay. As Hoosier Daddy pointed out, is anyone really against it? So for the noise in the media forgive me for rolling my eyes and being suspicious, and trusting this issue to the feminists. I assume they (the Dems and their feminist friends) are counting on the younger women rallying around this awful truth of inequality (yes, sorry, sarcasm). While your reading the history, the early opponents of ERA and equal pay were the unions.

 

[wendiek]

I’m assuming what you mean is that it is shameful that women don’t yet receive equal pay … and that the embarrassment would be on the part of those who oppose it.

Hi Ann Arbor - yes its shameful its 2014 and this is still an issue, was the point I didn’t make very well. Who opposes it today? Which is why its embarrassing we are admitting this failure (and, honestly, I’m suspicious of the numbers). ERA, Title IX, sexual harrassment, keeping our same last names, burning bras and the whole lot of it, and we haven’t resolved the one issue that would help the middle class, kids and single Moms.

 

[wendiek]

Hi Ann Arbor - yes its shameful its 2014 and this is still an issue, was the point I didn’t make very well. Who opposes it today? Which is why its embarrassing we are admitting this failure (and, honestly, I’m suspicious of the numbers). ERA, Title IX, sexual harrassment, keeping our same last names, burning bras and the whole lot of it, and we haven’t resolved the one issue that would help the middle class, kids and single Moms.

Oh, I forgot to mention it is like the immigration issue - 40 years and the department of immigration still operates in the same manner it always has: slowly, inefficiently, and not meeting the needs of the demand. This must be fixed: its an essential task of the federal government to protect borders and administer migration in and out of our country. But if you follow the money trail, neither party wants to fix it. Illegal immigrants pay in to the system (social security, through phony numbers), but take nothing out of it. Imagine how costly it would be to have to start paying EVERYONE who pays in a benefit? Okay, I’m on my soapbox, time to get off!

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I feel like this issue just keeps going round in circles: the original intent of feminism (a.k.a. first wave feminism) had a noble cause and many great women such as Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony who were ardently pro-life. In fact, even today, there is a wonderful group called Feminists for Life which echoes the same ideals that feminism once was associated with. Lumping several heterogenous individuals under one, uniformly negative blanket term is ridiculous.

Hey, I’m pro-life too, I hope we all are. But whenever I read a comment like this… meh. Can’t we just believe that women have value without getting into whether some woman or another supported the pro-life cause? This reminds me of the discussions about MLK, Jr. on the forum, everything he ever did was being treated as irrelevant (except the bad stuff), and really it all came down to whether or not his legacy could be co-opted for the pro-life movement. Nothing else mattered. Hundreds of years of oppression? Meh.
Hoosier Daddy:

Other than professional sports this is not a problem in the North America I am familiar with. Is it where you live?

Thanks in large part to femi—oops, I forgot, I mean, thank you manly men!

 

[AlTheCollegeGal]

Hey, I’m pro-life too, I hope we all are. But whenever I read a comment like this… meh. Can’t we just believe that women have value without getting into whether some woman or another supported the pro-life cause? This reminds me of the discussions about MLK, Jr. on the forum, everything he ever did was being treated as irrelevant (except the bad stuff), and really it all came down to whether or not his legacy could be co-opted for the pro-life movement. Nothing else mattered. Hundreds of years of oppression? Meh.

Confused here as to the point you’re making. I don’t know if you’re saying that I don’t believe women have value? I am a woman, and I am also a feminist for life. My point with talking about first-wave feminism was to show how it’s impossible to categorize a large, heterogenous group by the actions of a few.

 

[shelby2014]

I’m also a woman in a non-traditional field, although I’m still a student, and I agree 100%. I don’t have to put up with overt sexism, which is a step up from high school, however I do get talked down to by a lot of people. Guys in groups meeting without letting me know, changing my work without asking me about it (I’ve lost too many marks because of this… fortunately they did too and most of them have failed out by now.), professors and TA’s implying that if I have questions about anything it’s clearly because I’m female and therefore less intelligent, and generally assuming I’m less capable. It took a few years, but I’ve finally learned which people to work with and who to avoid. Informal tutoring probably helped a bit too .
.

Think about what the equal pay people are saying and what it implies. In my field, we get out of college and get hired as groups to go work for companies. Imagine they are paying the men $50K. That means they would be paying the women $38,500. That’s a big and noticeable difference. Imagine the lunchroom - the man pulling out leftovers from the Chinese restaurant he went to the night before and the woman pulling out ramen noodles? It doesn’t make sense.

Here’s what I will say about equal pay. If you do not go to college: In my current company, we have very masculine jobs. The are dirty. They require hard work. They require you to be able to lift 100 pounds and have a CDL. They get paid very well. It’s hard to find women who will or can do that. Many men work long hours because they are the major breadwinners - both the white collar and blue collar men. When I talk to my husband about why they work so hard and never complain, he says that men are just “wired” that way. In my company there are many administrative jobs that are filled by women. They are relatively “cushy” - you work inside all day, standard 8-5 hours. And you do not make very much.

I do not believe in “equal pay for equal work” in the sense that there is blatant discrimination going on out there. I think there is just not an alignment of high paying jobs with jobs that women are interested in or can perform, and I do think a lot of women end up working less hours in order to “run the household.”

That said, I fully support women going out and finding themselves a career - I would just counsel them as to what field to get in to if pay is a concern.

 

[TeachCatechism]

I am a feminist and am not ashamed to say so. That’s not to say I support abortion or birth control or even single parenthood, but rather I believe women should have the same choices as men. If a woman wants to work and have kids, I see nothing wrong with this. If a woman (or a man)wants to stay at home, nothing wrong either, assuming they are supporting themselves and I’m not supporting them via welfare. I do support equal pay and yes have been paid unfairly simply for being a woman. I do disagree with the whole God sends as many kids as one can handle, because then why is he sending babies to unwed crack addicted women while some educated married women struggle with infertility?

 

[Mandychu22]

Think about what the equal pay people are saying and what it implies. In my field, we get out of college and get hired as groups to go work for companies. Imagine they are paying the men $50K. That means they would be paying the women $38,500. That’s a big and noticeable difference. Imagine the lunchroom - the man pulling out leftovers from the Chinese restaurant he went to the night before and the woman pulling out ramen noodles? It doesn’t make sense.

The problem is that the disparity starts small and grows, or that fewer women are considered for the same jobs. If a man gets an average raise of 5% and a woman gets 4%, that adds up over time. I saw earlier that women earn $.91 to every dollar a man earns. That means $45 500 and $50 000, not $38 500, which was probably calculated based on figures that didn’t take into account career choice. That means that they’ll both have similar lifestyles, but it is still a clear disparity.

It comes from women not being taken seriously, and also from the fact that women need medical leave when giving birth. But if a man needs 6 weeks off for medical leave it isn’t looked on as though he’s letting down his company…

Here’s what I will say about equal pay. If you do not go to college: In my current company, we have very masculine jobs. The are dirty. They require hard work. They require you to be able to lift 100 pounds and have a CDL. They get paid very well. It’s hard to find women who will or can do that. Many men work long hours because they are the major breadwinners - both the white collar and blue collar men. ** When I talk to my husband about why they work so hard and never complain, he says that men are just “wired” that way.** In my company there are many administrative jobs that are filled by women. They are relatively “cushy” - you work inside all day, standard 8-5 hours. And you do not make very much.

How fortunate for me that my ‘desk job’ is going to be so much more cushy than my male co-workers’ just because I’m a woman. Particularly since, in my field, I’m expected to do the exact same things as the men. I also don’t think it’s entirely that women don’t want to take on ‘man jobs’, it’s that when you try to, some men push back. Hard. Girls just aren’t treated the same way as boys when they try to enter certain STEM fields, and boys aren’t treated the same way when they enter fields like ECE… the difference is that one type of job pays way better than the other.

As for the part I bolded: that’s not ‘men vs women’, that’s personality. How insulting to know that people think I work less hard because of my gender… no wonder I have to put in way more hours than my male conterparts to be taken seriously. That attitude is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be fought against.

I do not believe in “equal pay for equal work” in the sense that there is blatant discrimination going on out there. I think there is just not an alignment of high paying jobs with jobs that women are interested in or can perform, and I do think a lot of women end up working less hours in order to “run the household.”

Except for the part where women in the same field as men generally make less/ year worked , and are taken less seriously. I’m not getting a degree in upper body strength, I’m getting a degree in engineering. That didn’t stop years of dealing with the attitude that I should ‘step back and let the men handle it’.

Equal pay for equal work doesn’t mean “I worked for 8 hours flipping burgers, and he worked for 8 hours as a doctor, so we should be payed equal money.” It means that if I work for 8 hours with my male colleague on a design for a company, and we have the same qualifications, we should be paid the same amount. And that’s clearly not the case at the moment.

As for women taking more time off to run the household than men usually do, I wonder if that’s because women are expected to take care of the vast majority of household tasks even if they have a career. That may be a reason behind the disparity of earnings, however it’s also something that needs to be fought against. There’s no reason I should be the one who comes home every night to cook dinner, clean house, buy groceries, etc just because I’m female. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s expected (by society, not my husband).

That said, I fully support women going out and finding themselves a career - I would just counsel them as to what field to get in to if pay is a concern.

 

[shelby2014]

Mandychu -

"The problem is that the disparity starts small and grows, or that fewer women are considered for the same jobs. If a man gets an average raise of 5% and a woman gets 4%, that adds up over time. "

My husband and I have essentially the same work background and qualifications - we make almost exactly the same at different companies, and I may actually make more.

“It comes from women not being taken seriously,”

Sorry, I just haven’t seen this at all. Maybe it’s an age difference? I am almost 30, and maybe older women have felt that way. At this time, if you work in a large company and are a woman, you have MORE career opportunity, because the large companies are trying pad management with women as a PR initiative.

“As for the part I bolded: that’s not ‘men vs women’, that’s personality. How insulting to know that people think I work less hard because of my gender… no wonder I have to put in way more hours than my male conterparts to be taken seriously. That attitude is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be fought against.”

It is personality, but it is also gender. Or at least a difference in how men and women are raised. There IS a difference in interests between men and women, although there will always be people who don’t fit the average (even if, say 30% of women do not fit the description, that still means the other 70% are a majority). The men I know are very focused and/or passionate about their jobs. The women I know are VERY GOOD AT THEIR JOBS but their are focused and passionate about other things - they like to have free time to engage with friends, have crafty type hobbies, spend time with their kids, etc.

“Except for the part where women in the same field as men generally make less/ year worked , and are taken less seriously. I’m not getting a degree in upper body strength, I’m getting a degree in engineering. That didn’t stop years of dealing with the attitude that I should ‘step back and let the men handle it’.” And that’s clearly not the case at the moment.

Once again, sorry you feel that way - but I just don’t think that is happening any more. Have never ever experienced it. If anything, as I said, it’s the men who are being left behind when the work is EXACTLY THE SAME, major companies promote and hire and pay women more so they can pat themselves on the back.

“As for women taking more time off to run the household than men usually do, I wonder if that’s because women are expected to take care of the vast majority of household tasks even if they have a career. That may be a reason behind the disparity of earnings, however it’s also something that needs to be fought against. There’s no reason I should be the one who comes home every night to cook dinner, clean house, buy groceries, etc just because I’m female. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s expected (by society, not my husband).”

Also don’t think this is expected by society anymore. Once again, call it personality or call it a gender thing, but the women I know who spend all their time on housework (who are not stay at home moms or anything) do it because they CARE more about having a clean house and enjoy cooking. In houses where the man cares more, he does the cooking and cleaning.

 

[TeachCatechism]

When I see comments that women go into different fields or take time off, I assume that person really hasn’t dealt with discrimination. I have, I worked the same job as my male coworkers, I have more experience and education and was still paid less. In fact one guy was a recent college grad and was making more. I never desired to be a stay at home mom, nor did I ever do that so this idea I was paid less because of this is ridiculous. I ended up getting fired because I questioned why I was paid less.

 

[shelby2014]

OP -

Here’s what I think. I don’t know if the word “feminist” is good, bad, or ugly. I don’t even know if it applies to what you are thinking. Taking away the abortion debate, I still think there are things that organized feminism has done that are not beneficial to society.

One of those things is throwing all women into a bucket and saying that you have to fit that norm - whether the bucket was being a pretty little housewife in the 1950’s or being a sexy executive in 2014 - there is still a bucket.

I would counsel you to just be you - not let the fact that you are a woman make you fret about anything. Pick the job you want. But if that job turns out to be hard, not what you expected, or you are unable to advance, don’t look directly to “mean society being anti-women” - look to yourself and think about what you can do to improve. Ask yourself if it was originally a good fit. I think the most successful people in life, men or women, are those who are passionate about what they do.

And if you don’t want to stay at home with your kids, you don’t have to. I would advise that having kids will require some sacrifices - and you should be prepared to make decisions about what is best for them. But that doesn’t mean you have to stay home, or that your husband has to stay home either - so long as your careers are not hurting the kids. If you do want to stay at home with the kids, then it doesn’t have to be because you are woman filling a “traditional role” - it is because you want to stay at home with the kids.

Be you and don’t put yourself into a box where you view EVERYTHING through the eyes of, “Well I’m a woman so…”