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Mandychu22
Guest
I’m 25, so my experiences and the experiences of my female friends aren’t exactly a result of past culture. These are things that happen today. That said, I’m pretty young so I’ve obviously not held many jobs (some factory work, some engineering related student work, some government work with the military). The ‘women aren’t as good’ attitude penetrated all of these jobs though.
The fact that I ‘have more career opportunity’ because I’m a woman doesn’t mean that I’m taken more seriously. The fact that women are promoted for PR purposes only adds to them not being as taken as seriously as men who hold the same positions.
As for the household work, women often care more because it’s seen as more of a reflection of them. If someone comes into my home and sees a stack of dishes on the counter, they aren’t going to be thinking that my husband and I are both slobs. They’re going to be thinking that I’m incapable of managing a home, and that my husband got a dud wife. Particularly if the visitor is a woman. Maybe it’s different where you’re from
Or maybe you’ve gotten lucky, and just haven’t had to deal with it.
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Mandychu22
Guest
The problem is that if a woman is passionate about something like automotive systems or the energy systems involved in power generation she isn’t taken seriously. Trust me, I’m passionate about my field, even if I have made the decision not to pursue a career until after I have children. If I could survive without money, I’d do my job for free. The money issue isn’t really the point, it’s the respect issue. I’d like to be able to walk into a job without people assuming that I’m less qualified than the man sitting beside me.
I think that telling someone who is told they’re clearly never going to be as good because they don’t have a Y chromosome “But if that job turns out to be hard, not what you expected,** or you are unable to advance**, don’t look directly to “mean society being anti-women” - look to yourself and think about what you can do to improve.” is appalling. Sometimes it really is society that’s the problem, and telling the people who are being discriminated against that they’ll get the same treatment if they would only work harder, is ridiculous and offensive.
If a certain group is being habitually looked down upon, or habitually told they can’t possibly be good enough, or habitually treated a certain way because of their genetics, that is a problem. Everything isn’t being viewed through the eyes of “I’m a woman so…”, but that doesn’t mean that a problem can’t be recognised.
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shelby2014
Guest
I’m sorry - I don’t mean to imply that actual discrimination is ever acceptable. But I TRULY DO BELIEVE that is is much less of a problem than most people make it out to be - especially these days. Then again, there may be differences in different fields of work. I find it appaling that anyone would blatantly discriminate against someone but I DO think that some people tend to look toward any negativity and use discrimination as an excuse.
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GusIsAGirl
Guest
This^^^^
I very much dislike the word because I don’t know anyone who calls themselves a feminist is not radically pro-abortion and pro-have-all-the-sex-you-want-with-no-marriage. On the other hand, I know women who are pro-life and Catholic and are everything from doctors to lawyers to SAHMs and everything in between and none of them call themselves feminists.
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FieldofDreams86
Guest
What you are describing here is male resentment. Allow me to explain. The government has heavy-handedly forced companies to hire a certain amount of women or face loss of contracts / lawsuits. Colleges, despite a majority female population of 60%, still handout more scholarships to women that young men when we are the ones that need assistance. The law has literally coded discrimination against men into the culture and we’re tired of it. The real problem is there are tons of advocacy groups to hold your hand and not a single one to help men out. Whether you want to admit it or not, times have changed and the only ones legally discriminated against are white men in particular. Even if we work our butts off, we still face a barrage of critics ready to make us feel guilty for our success if there “isn’t enough women in our field.”
When women compete like men, without preferential treatment, you will be respected. Case in point SBIR/STTR (sbir.gov/past-awards). Why do women get a special category? If you’re as capable as any man you shouldn’t need it. Awards like these should be based on ideas, not gender. As long as you have a handicap you will be looked down on. Handicaps lead to resentment. How would you feel if you were an elementary education teacher (female-dominated) working hard to pay your college bills off only to find the guy down the hall got a free ride because he is a guy? Maybe you’re even a better teacher than him! You can’t expect special treatment and then expect your competition that had to work as hard at understanding the material to be happy about you receiving it.
This!
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Kamaduck
Guest
White men make more money than any other race/gender group- the exact statistics may be debatable, but it’s accepted that white men make the most. According to you, they do this while getting the least government aid. This leaves us with two possibilities:
- White men are just naturally better than other race/gender groups, so they get the best jobs even without any aid. In the end, white men are superior in every discipline that society values enough to pay significant amounts for.
- White men are getting aid, just not from the government.
I do feel I should note that white men are thrown in prison much less often than black and hispanic men for the same crimes, and receive lighter sentences. That’s a very real kind of discrimination, but like most institutional oppression, it is mainly caused by our subconscious beliefs about groups, not by any deliberate and conscious racism. I’d argue that the same principles apply to sexism- something doesn’t have to be intentional to be harmful.
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Miss_Felicity
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Quite possibly my favorite response on CAF, Bravo!White men make more money than any other race/gender group- the exact statistics may be debatable, but it’s accepted that white men make the most. According to you, they do this while getting the least government aid. This leaves us with two possibilities:
I find answer #2 more believable, but I suppose that’s just me.
- White men are just naturally better than other race/gender groups, so they get the best jobs even without any aid. In the end, white men are superior in every discipline that society values enough to pay significant amounts for.
- White men are getting aid, just not from the government.
I do feel I should note that white men are thrown in prison much less often than black and hispanic men for the same crimes, and receive lighter sentences. That’s a very real kind of discrimination, but like most institutional oppression, it is mainly caused by our subconscious beliefs about groups, not by any deliberate and conscious racism. I’d argue that the same principles apply to sexism- something doesn’t have to be intentional to be harmful.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
White men make more? Not so fast there.White men make more money than any other race/gender group- the exact statistics may be debatable, but it’s accepted that white men make the most. According to you, they do this while getting the least government aid. This leaves us with two possibilities:
I find answer #2 more believable, but I suppose that’s just me.
- White men are just naturally better than other race/gender groups, so they get the best jobs even without any aid. In the end, white men are superior in every discipline that society values enough to pay significant amounts for.
- White men are getting aid, just not from the government.
I do feel I should note that white men are thrown in prison much less often than black and hispanic men for the same crimes, and receive lighter sentences. That’s a very real kind of discrimination, but like most institutional oppression, it is mainly caused by our subconscious beliefs about groups, not by any deliberate and conscious racism. I’d argue that the same principles apply to sexism- something doesn’t have to be intentional to be harmful.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States
In 2004 White men in America made and average of $31,335
Asian Male in America $32,419
Asian women also made significantly more than their white female counterparts.
I guess white men can join this “Equal pay” fight as well.
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Mandychu22
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I don’t expect special treatment, and I argue strongly against hiring quotas for two reasons:
- They make no sense, and any company who wants to hire a less qualified person because of their gender or race deserves what they get: inferior employees, and
- I don’t want to work for someone who hired me to fill a quota and thinks I’m less capable. I’m better than that, and I have more to offer than such a job would allow.
And yet, I’m looked down upon because of all the ‘helping hands’ I have access to, even though I have never taken advantage of them?? Even though my professors have blown off my questions in favour of ‘male bonding’ time after lectures, with the students who didn’t have the audacity to be born female?? Even though I’m often told I have no right to be there, however indirectly?? It’s ridiculous.
I can understand being resentful of the fact that there are scholarships offered to women that aren’t offered to men. I can’t understand the assumption that I’m less qualified because I show up to the job without certain bits of anatomy. And I certainly can’t understand why the existence of these scholarships and programs means I shouldn’t be treated with the same respect as the guy sitting next to me.
I’d take respect without the money any day of the week, especially when you consider that I didn’t take the money anyway. Unfortunately respect isn’t on offer. And **that’s **what we’re complaining about.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
This type of scholastic behavior is not as prevalent now.
foxnews.com/us/2014/04/03/college-degree-gender-gap-widens-with-younger-gen-xers/
There are more women in college than men. hmmmmm
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Mandychu22
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I’m actually only 25, and in University currently. It may not be as prevalent now, but it’s certainly still occurring. I will admit that it may have something to do with the cultural backgrounds of many of the students and teachers, I haven’t done a study or anything (although exams are almost done…
The nerdiest part is that it actually sounds like a fun summer activity)I’m not being told I don’t have the right to attend university, it’s as generally assumed that women will get a degree as it is of men. I’m being told I have no business in Engineering because it’s man’s work. And I also hate the looks of doubt and mistrust I get when I tell people my major. Teaching, Arts, Business, and Science are all fine… Engineering though…
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Hoosier_Daddy
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No one is telling you that. No one. My wife works in a male dominated field. She is a scientist. She makes 6 figures and I stay home with the kids. Are there “glass ceilings” Sure. But there is an obstacle for everyone. My wife hires and fires. She is on the cutting edge of her field, she is published, and a 31 is dominating in her MBA program that she does while bringing home the bacon and doing crafts with our 4 kids. Is she paid less? no. Is she taken seriously? Yes, and in her field and in your field it is not so much being a woman as perhaps foreign differences that end up being barriers. Many foreign men in her field are the ones who may have some mistaken notion of sexism. But hey usually end up working under her.I’m actually only 25, and in University currently. It may not be as prevalent now, but it’s certainly still occurring. I will admit that it may have something to do with the cultural backgrounds of many of the students and teachers, I haven’t done a study or anything (although exams are almost done…
I’m not being told I don’t have the right to attend university, it’s as generally assumed that women will get a degree as it is of men. I’m being told I have no business in Engineering because it’s man’s work. And I also hate the looks of doubt and mistrust I get when I tell people my major. Teaching, Arts, Business, and Science are all fine… Engineering though…
Many a person has made the mistake of thinking my wife’s upbeat smiling face and pop culture references mean that she is less than important. She does not golf or hobnob, we don’t drink or really socialize outside of work. Yet, cross her, take her for granted and she will bury you.
One thing you may find is that most of what you are seeing is really because of age. Not gender. People think my wife is young, then they end up being her lab assistant.
You think you are seeing sexism!?
Try being me. A stay at home homeschooling dad. I don’t even get taken seriously at the grocery store!
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Mr_Clean
Guest
To the op - I agree with you. You should be treated fairly but wanting that as a woman does not mean you are a feminist by itself. Certainly the modern feminist movement is about more than what you are saying. Making decisions for your life based on what you want for yourself should not automatically be held against you. Obviously pay should not be based on gender or race, age, etc. The women where I work make the same if they have the same performance history and time on the job. I guess it depends where you work and the culture you’re in.
I get into “fairness” arguments with my wife. She tries to make sure all three of our kids get the same stuff. If one gets an item from the store she gets the others something too so their feelings don’t get hurt. I tell her not to do this because this is not how the real world works. Life’s not fair all the time.
I get into “fairness” arguments with my wife. She tries to make sure all three of our kids get the same stuff. If one gets an item from the store she gets the others something too so their feelings don’t get hurt. I tell her not to do this because this is not how the real world works. Life’s not fair all the time.
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marymary1975
Guest
I am with this. I don’t like to call myself feminist because each and every feminist group I know and every I read related to feminist translates into pro abortion, pro contraception and be promiscuous. In fact I see many issues with women that are completely ignored (for example the fact that in the US by law women don’t get paid maternity leave or an employer’s right to fire a pregnant woman) that I think are issues that should be discussed and instead are ignored by feminist obviously because all they are into is promoting abortion.
In CAF I heard for the first time about feminist for life and I also heard here about sez negative feminist which seem acceptable to me (despite that name sex negative sounds to me like given to give a bad connotation to being pro life) but again given that the vast majority of the feminist movement is strongly antilife, I rather not to identify with the words feminism.
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Mandychu22
Guest
No one is telling you that. No one.
Funny, as I have been told that explicitly by a professor before, when I went to office hours to discuss coursework. My bad.
My wife works in a male dominated field. She is a scientist. She makes 6 figures and I stay home with the kids. Are there “glass ceilings” Sure. But there is an obstacle for everyone. My wife hires and fires. She is on the cutting edge of her field, she is published, and a 31 is dominating in her MBA program that she does while bringing home the bacon and doing crafts with our 4 kids. Is she paid less? no. Is she taken seriously? Yes, and in her field and in your field it is not so much being a woman as perhaps foreign differences that end up being barriers. Many foreign men in her field are the ones who may have some mistaken notion of sexism. But hey usually end up working under her.
Many a person has made the mistake of thinking my wife’s upbeat smiling face and pop culture references mean that she is less than important. She does not golf or hobnob, we don’t drink or really socialize outside of work. Yet, cross her, take her for granted and she will bury you.
One thing you may find is that most of what you are seeing is really because of age. Not gender. People think my wife is young, then they end up being her lab assistant.
No, comments about only being valuable as a set of boobs, and that I should leave things to ‘the men’ when ‘the men’ are 21 is not a result of my age. Maybe your wife got lucky, and maybe I was unlucky… I’m still going to act in accordance with my experiences.
You think you are seeing sexism!?
Try being me. A stay at home homeschooling dad. I don’t even get taken seriously at the grocery store!
And that’s wrong too! I fight those stereotypes and discriminatory actions as well. Just because someone has it worse, doesn’t mean I have to accept my situation as it stands.
And just because no one ever made such comments to my father when he took us out to do groceries, or shopping, or any other activity; doesn’t change the fact that men face discrimination when it comes to childcare.
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7armyrugrats
Guest
“Try being me. A stay at home homeschooling dad. I don’t even get taken seriously at the grocery store!”
Hoosier that is funny! It’s only funny because it is so true. My dad was very involved with us growing up in the '60’s, 70’s and early '80’s. He was a detective on the police department by night, stay at home carpooling dad by day. Mom worked days so somebody had to do the carpool! He took some real ragging from the other dectectives as I’m sure you can imagine. In those days, dads just did not change diapers.
We have come a very long way in terms of discrimination, but unfortunately it is still alive and well. Having had the opportunity to live in many places I have noticed that in some areas women have an advantage over men, other areas men still have an advantage over women. In the areas where women have the advantage, stay at home dads are more prevalent and people don’t tend to notice them. Where men have the advantage, more women stay home. In places where it’s pretty equal I have found the most two income families.
Other types of discrimination still occur as well. My husband has been denyed military assignments that would have been great professional opportunities for him, family friendly, adventure and travel for us–great for teaching a new culture to our kids–simply because we have a large family. Yes, there is a limit on the amount of children a couple may have for embassy duty. Before the military he faced work place discrimination due to being Hispanic. We have come a long way but we still have a long way to go. Debating which gender or race or family size or religion or whatever will always go round and round in circles because in all actuality we all face similar fights. We tend not to acknowledge the hardships that other groups face because we are more aware of the ones we are facing. But all of us have struggles and unfair disadvantages. I wish we could all see that.
Hoosier that is funny! It’s only funny because it is so true. My dad was very involved with us growing up in the '60’s, 70’s and early '80’s. He was a detective on the police department by night, stay at home carpooling dad by day. Mom worked days so somebody had to do the carpool! He took some real ragging from the other dectectives as I’m sure you can imagine. In those days, dads just did not change diapers.
We have come a very long way in terms of discrimination, but unfortunately it is still alive and well. Having had the opportunity to live in many places I have noticed that in some areas women have an advantage over men, other areas men still have an advantage over women. In the areas where women have the advantage, stay at home dads are more prevalent and people don’t tend to notice them. Where men have the advantage, more women stay home. In places where it’s pretty equal I have found the most two income families.
Other types of discrimination still occur as well. My husband has been denyed military assignments that would have been great professional opportunities for him, family friendly, adventure and travel for us–great for teaching a new culture to our kids–simply because we have a large family. Yes, there is a limit on the amount of children a couple may have for embassy duty. Before the military he faced work place discrimination due to being Hispanic. We have come a long way but we still have a long way to go. Debating which gender or race or family size or religion or whatever will always go round and round in circles because in all actuality we all face similar fights. We tend not to acknowledge the hardships that other groups face because we are more aware of the ones we are facing. But all of us have struggles and unfair disadvantages. I wish we could all see that.
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severus68
Guest
JPII said he was a feminist. So do many other men. I know many, male and female who are feminists and are not pro-abortion or promiscuous. I believe some are afraid of the term. Take the dictionary definition as basically being about the equality of women.
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severus68
Guest
Bravo!White men make more money than any other race/gender group- the exact statistics may be debatable, but it’s accepted that white men make the most. According to you, they do this while getting the least government aid. This leaves us with two possibilities:
I find answer #2 more believable, but I suppose that’s just me.
- White men are just naturally better than other race/gender groups, so they get the best jobs even without any aid. In the end, white men are superior in every discipline that society values enough to pay significant amounts for.
- White men are getting aid, just not from the government.
I do feel I should note that white men are thrown in prison much less often than black and hispanic men for the same crimes, and receive lighter sentences. That’s a very real kind of discrimination, but like most institutional oppression, it is mainly caused by our subconscious beliefs about groups, not by any deliberate and conscious racism. I’d argue that the same principles apply to sexism- something doesn’t have to be intentional to be harmful.
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Book_Worm
Guest
The feminist movement was – and is --about a hell of a lot more than equal pay.
Maybe all of you are too young to remember what it was like before feminism.
It was generally accepted that a man could not rape his wife; they were married, it was his right to have sex with her whenever he wanted.
You were raped? Well, it was probably mostly your fault. You were dressed provocatively, were in the wrong part of town, were probably looking for it, even if you were a nine-year-old girl or a seventy-five-year-old grandmother. And if you go to court to testify against your rapist, you better make sure there’s nothing even the least bit provocative in your past because it’s going to be dragged out and painted in the worst possible light.
Domestic dispute? Well, the cop can see your black eye and broken arm, but this was a family matter and you’ll probably refuse to press charges so there’s not much the police can do.
You’re a female HS athlete? Well, better get used to having substandard athletic facilities, poorer coaching and fewer scholarships available to you.
And it was SOP that men made more money than women. Even today this is true or there would not be so much opposition to allowing access to payroll information. I worked as an admin to senior level executives in a Fortune Fifty company, and as such was privy to a lot of conversations because I blended into the wallpaper. A woman with high potential is looked upon as an anomaly. She has to do more to get the same respect a less qualified man would. There is definitely a good ol’ boys network that doesn’t admit women, but they’re much too smart to let it slip out. After 50 years of feminism, there are only 23 female CEOs in Fortune 500 companies.
Any improvements in the lives of ALL women are due mainly to the feminist movement.
If ANY of these changes have made your life better in any way, it’s rather hypocritical to enjoy the results and then castigate and condemn feminists. Stop listening to Rush and his “feminazi” hyperbole.
I’m Catholic, pro-life and very proud to be a feminist.
Maybe all of you are too young to remember what it was like before feminism.
It was generally accepted that a man could not rape his wife; they were married, it was his right to have sex with her whenever he wanted.
You were raped? Well, it was probably mostly your fault. You were dressed provocatively, were in the wrong part of town, were probably looking for it, even if you were a nine-year-old girl or a seventy-five-year-old grandmother. And if you go to court to testify against your rapist, you better make sure there’s nothing even the least bit provocative in your past because it’s going to be dragged out and painted in the worst possible light.
Domestic dispute? Well, the cop can see your black eye and broken arm, but this was a family matter and you’ll probably refuse to press charges so there’s not much the police can do.
You’re a female HS athlete? Well, better get used to having substandard athletic facilities, poorer coaching and fewer scholarships available to you.
And it was SOP that men made more money than women. Even today this is true or there would not be so much opposition to allowing access to payroll information. I worked as an admin to senior level executives in a Fortune Fifty company, and as such was privy to a lot of conversations because I blended into the wallpaper. A woman with high potential is looked upon as an anomaly. She has to do more to get the same respect a less qualified man would. There is definitely a good ol’ boys network that doesn’t admit women, but they’re much too smart to let it slip out. After 50 years of feminism, there are only 23 female CEOs in Fortune 500 companies.
Any improvements in the lives of ALL women are due mainly to the feminist movement.
If ANY of these changes have made your life better in any way, it’s rather hypocritical to enjoy the results and then castigate and condemn feminists. Stop listening to Rush and his “feminazi” hyperbole.
I’m Catholic, pro-life and very proud to be a feminist.
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