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severus68
Guest
Sorry buy that is very untrue.
- Status
S
severus68
Guest
The most vocal are not always right or always represent the majority.
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Galbin
Guest
Yep. It sure is. I’ve met tons of feminists who are not at all pro abortion.
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pessimist
Guest
What’s the point of it all anyway? There are so many different interpretations of feminism- I hear everyone from porn stars to evangelical christians to man- hating lesbians to the lonely housewife claiming to be feminists.
In my opinion women should be provided the same rights as men- but I’m not delusional to think that we will ever live in an equal society. There are clear physical differences between the sexes, for one. One gender is better equipped to do certain things over the other. That’s not to say that women can’ t be great soldiers or computer programmers, or men can’t do whatever stereotypical thing a woman excels at. Its just that each gender is biologically equipped to generally be better at certain tasks.
For example, when I was a child and needed help with homework or had a scraped knee or needed relationship advice or moral support- I went to my mom. She was the nurturer, the educator, the one that assures me everything is going to be OK when I’m in existential crisis mode. She is intuitive, abstract, and conceptual; she taught me life lessons on a much deeper level.
My father however taught me how to drive a car, how to fill out a resume, and how to throw a baseball I had no interest in (I was a computer nerd growing up). Basically he taught me ‘real world’ lessons. He is practical and concrete. In retrospect, he didn’t teach me anything I couldn’t have figured out on my own.
With the fall of American manufacturing and the rise of outsourcing and ‘cheap labor’, American men are left competing with highly skilled immigrants from
Asia/ India and unskilled ‘undocumented’ workers. Moreover they’re not really interested in going to college or even learning a skill. The economy is changing and there is a cultural shift unfolding that favors educated women. In a few generations women will likely be the primary breadwinners in middle- class families. Men’s options are increasingly becoming limited to the military and tech industries.
Phone post
In my opinion women should be provided the same rights as men- but I’m not delusional to think that we will ever live in an equal society. There are clear physical differences between the sexes, for one. One gender is better equipped to do certain things over the other. That’s not to say that women can’ t be great soldiers or computer programmers, or men can’t do whatever stereotypical thing a woman excels at. Its just that each gender is biologically equipped to generally be better at certain tasks.
For example, when I was a child and needed help with homework or had a scraped knee or needed relationship advice or moral support- I went to my mom. She was the nurturer, the educator, the one that assures me everything is going to be OK when I’m in existential crisis mode. She is intuitive, abstract, and conceptual; she taught me life lessons on a much deeper level.
My father however taught me how to drive a car, how to fill out a resume, and how to throw a baseball I had no interest in (I was a computer nerd growing up). Basically he taught me ‘real world’ lessons. He is practical and concrete. In retrospect, he didn’t teach me anything I couldn’t have figured out on my own.
With the fall of American manufacturing and the rise of outsourcing and ‘cheap labor’, American men are left competing with highly skilled immigrants from
Asia/ India and unskilled ‘undocumented’ workers. Moreover they’re not really interested in going to college or even learning a skill. The economy is changing and there is a cultural shift unfolding that favors educated women. In a few generations women will likely be the primary breadwinners in middle- class families. Men’s options are increasingly becoming limited to the military and tech industries.
Phone post
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FieldofDreams86
Guest
I’m not sure how to even respond to these statements. I’ve seen some warped claims in my life but these win hands down.
Did we not read my earlier post about Feminists for Life?? They were EXPELLED from the Ohio chapter of N.O.W. because of their opposition to abortion. This happened in 1974. Does the “war against women” sound familiar? Who was leading that battle cry and bought into when they by MAJORITY voted for the most pro-abortion and anti-Catholic president in the history of the United States? (gallup.com/poll/154559/us-presidential-election-center.aspx) Women voted for Obama by +10 points over men! How can anyone buy that a majority of feminists are pro-life??? I think there is a lot of anecdotal evidence in the above claims that are so preposterous its not even funny.
Lastly, I’m truly sorry to the ladies who think they’ve experienced sexism. Welcome to the larger world however where both men AND women are subject to. People discriminate against others for a lot of reasons. Maybe ones nose is too big! Maybe one walks funny. Maybe ones personality is annoying. Maybe one just looks unattractive. Maybe one is deaf. Maybe one is blind. The list goes on… Most men’s beef with feminism is that those who ascribe that label upon themselves have a complete lack of interest in other cases of discrimination. Feminists have no authority to claim that their issues are worse unless they’ve lived as a man or person discriminated for some other reason. That ultimately translates into a self-centered quest for gains under the guise of victimhood that is in stark contrast to the basic principles of almost any religion including Catholicism. It seems the blind adherence to feminism has for many become a false god.
Pope Francis moderated the talk about feminism when he said “Feminism, as a unique philosophy, does not do any favors to those that it claims to represent, for it puts women on the level of a vindictive battle, and a woman is much more than that. The feminist campaign of the ’20s achieved what they wanted and it is over, but a constant feminist philosophy does not give women the dignity that they deserve. As a caricature, I would say that it runs the risk of becoming chauvinism with skirts.” -Pope Francis
Listen to the Holy Father…or are you going to challenge him?
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Walking_Home
Guest
I believe he said this — not as the Pope --but several years ** before** he became the Pope.
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pessimist
Guest
Sorry but that is complete nonsense. Men have always been in positions of power and exhorted authority over women. In much of the world women are classified as personal property. I’m pretty much in agreement with the rest of your post, tho. As a white middle-class guy I certainly don’t feel this “white male privilege” I apparently have over my female counterparts. Haha
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Google image famous feminists… Not seeing a lot of pro lifers…
google.com/search?q=famous+feminists&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CQVMU4HbLcidyQGH0YHABQ&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1242&bih=607
But perhaps this “silent majority” of pro life feminists people speak of is just waiting to spread their message for the right time? Perhaps they are too busy getting the kids out the door to go to daycare? I don’t know but I do know this. If the pay between men and women is ever going to be equal, then women will have to be sterile. Feminism has realized this and used it.
Steinem, Ginsburg, Stanger. Perhaps the Unholy Trinity of modern feminism.
google.com/search?q=famous+feminists&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CQVMU4HbLcidyQGH0YHABQ&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1242&bih=607
But perhaps this “silent majority” of pro life feminists people speak of is just waiting to spread their message for the right time? Perhaps they are too busy getting the kids out the door to go to daycare? I don’t know but I do know this. If the pay between men and women is ever going to be equal, then women will have to be sterile. Feminism has realized this and used it.
Steinem, Ginsburg, Stanger. Perhaps the Unholy Trinity of modern feminism.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Google image famous feminists… Not seeing a lot of pro lifers…
google.com/search?q=famous+feminists&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=CQVMU4HbLcidyQGH0YHABQ&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1242&bih=607
But perhaps this “silent majority” of pro life feminists people speak of is just waiting to spread their message for the right time? Perhaps they are too busy getting the kids out the door to go to daycare? I don’t know but I do know this. If the pay between men and women is ever going to be equal, then women will have to be sterile. Feminism has realized this and used it.
Steinem, Ginsburg, Stanger. Perhaps the Unholy Trinity of modern feminism.
Well – this is not new here — use radical feminism as an umbrella to cover all – and throw non-radical feminists under the bus.
M
marymary1975
Guest
What you are saying here is true Book worm (plus as someone else mentioned the credit issue, women not being to own property etc) but …and to me this is a big but…this improvent was thanks to the original feminist movement which is very different to one we have today. In fact many women in the original feminist moment were prolife and they were fighting for an improvement in women’s quality of life. However, the current feminist movement has become more of an ideology pushing abortion and contraception mentality and very little about looking for actual equality. I do know that there are many individual people WO are like Karmaduck says sex negative feminist (like JPII) but if you look at the movement itself and all finist organizations not only it is fiercely pro abortion pro contraception and pro homosexuality but if you dare to disagree with them they will attack you fiercely. For most feminist organizations simply you can’t be pro life and a feminist so unfortunately if you believe in equal rights and are pro life you are against the huge majority. And again that huge majority tends to ignore many real problems of women today just because they are only focused on the anti life mentality.
Of course, sexism is alive still in our culture (but again I tend to disagree with most feminist organizations as to how to fix that sexism) but part of the reason why is precisely because feminism as a current movement has many deficiencies as to the way they want to fix things. I think being for women’s rights is a must for everybody but being a feminist under the current connotation of the movement… Hmm is a no to me.
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marymary1975
Guest
I do agree with that. As I said organized feminism today is pro abortion anti religion pro promiscuity and pro homosexualism. Pro life feminist are fiercely rejected by organized feminism (I personally have run a lot into this) and the vast majority of the movement don’t accept our catholic views as compatible with feminism. Of course there are many individual women that are for women’s right and are pro life but as a general movement those two views are not compatible and sex negative feminist are a minority. That is a problem… Also I think is a serious problem when high numbers of women are voting only based on whether they can have an abortion and who is going to provide them with contraception. Truth is the voice of pro life feminist gets shut down by the organized movement.
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Galbin
Guest
I get what you are saying. However, many feminists feel that the term has been captured by those extreme feminists and left us all tarnished with the same brush. Maybe most American feminists are pro abortion, but certainly not all European ones are.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Well it would appear that if you insist on making a distinction in cross continental feminism that European feminism tends to focus more on homosexual issues.
What I see is this idea of people saying that what feminism is is not what all the feminists who have a microphone say it is but rather what their Catholic SAHMs friends who consider themselves advocates of women say it is. The thing is that is not backed up by any sort of media or message that is effectively getting out there. So while we can argue about what “real” feminism is the ones defining it are the ones that many say do not represent feminism. That is fine, you all may know all these virtuous pro life feminists that you talk with over coffee But all the evidence that is not anecdotal is pointing in the opposite direction.
The feminist movement has always been controversial in the Catholic Church. From the Proud days of Dorothy Day to the modern Nancy Pelosi. But the modern problem is feminism manifesting itself in the forms of “reproductive rights” and equal pay and even women priests movements has got the attention and from all real data are the vast majority of “feminists”
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Walking_Home
Guest
And look at what happens here – when pro-life feminists are vocal. Right away – the “radical” feminist card is drawn – and flung at them-- to shut them down/keep them silent/throw them under the bus.
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holyrood
Guest
Tone can easily be misunderstood in writing and on forums. I certainly hope that you were not suggesting I’m uneducated or unknowledgeable. I’m well aware that there are thousands, perhaps millions, of pro-life feminists. I used to be part of Feminists for Life. I have a book of theirs. I have quoted the early feminist writings probably hundreds of times online showing that the early feminist leaders were opposed to abortion.
It does not change anything I said. The question was: why do feminists get labeled as all being pro-abortion when in fact many aren’t?
My answer stands: because the most vocal feminists today, the ones who get the press, are so adamant that to be a feminist fundamentally means being pro-abortion. They have created a definition that the media backs up at every turn. As others in this thread have pointed out, this particular type of feminist will reject and push away any feminist who stands up for unborn children.
To say that the pro-abortion feminists themselves created the label and the situation where people think all feminists are pro-abortion is not at all saying that pro-life feminists don’t exist. It’s explaining why fewer people realize they exist, and in great numbers.
H
Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
No, that has not happened. I understand that it must be frustrating that the world does not hold to the definition of feminism that so many of us would like to see, and I understand the idea that a movement hijacked by political figures still has people that believe in it’s original tenets (long since abandoned) But just the term itself “radical feminism” is an attempt to make those feminist that do not align with your ideals appear on the fringe. When in fact, by the numbers, it is the non radical (pro life) feminist that is in the fray.
I do not believe that a real movement exists like that described by those who think that “most feminists I know are pro life” It is simple a fact that if you are a faithful Catholic then you probably would not even converse with the majority of feminists out there. The feminism that is prevalent in politics and in colleges and in the public square is, like any movement, loud, powerful and dominant.
But for the sake of argument what does this (according to you) non radical or perhaps mainstream feminism look like? How would one practice this cause? Is it all in private prayer? Because I don’t really know of well funded powerful assimilations of these pro life mainstream “feminists” Where are the political candidates? What are the PACs funded by? Who are the faces of this underground resistance I hear tell of.
Well, I’ll tell you. It is Sarah Palin. I am a feminist in her camp. She is pro life, a strong woman, wanted to be president. She was completely destroyed by not only the media, but many Catholic women. She is a joke, a punchline. She called the Russia crisis in crimea in 2008. And questioned if Obama had the skills to deal with it. She was laughed out of town. Now, if a man had said that, he would be the front runner in the primary for president. She lived in alaska and shot deer with guns (pretty much of a stereotype breaker for what a woman should be) and she was abandoned. In fact she was abandoned by her own party. And she was abandoned by Catholics in favor of Obama. I can almost guarantee a larger Catholic vote for Hillary if she runs in 2016 on the premise of “feminism”
So what does this “mainstream” feminism look like? Where is it? How can I join? Where can I send a check? Who can I vote for? Can I go down to the local college and take a course in feminist studies and hear this supposed large view of women? Can I even find a single source stating that pro life feminism is anything more than a footnote or an anomaly? Are there any statistical numbers that would show that “most feminists” are not the “radical” kind? Or is it that “feminism” has come to mean that “I like women”?
Poll 100 people and say who is the more active feminist: Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin? Nancy Pelosi or Suzie the Catholic Crunchy Stay at Home mom?
Where is this movement? How does it manifest itself?
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Galbin
Guest
You are right about Sarah Palin. I didn’t agree with everything she stood for, but I liked her a lot. As for the pro life feminists, IME you will often find them working with abused women. These feminists are not about the pro abortion cause. Sure, many of us study feminist theory before we begin this type of work, but we are the people in the trenches that are really fighting for women’s rights. And we all call ourselves feminists.
Though reading your post above makes me second guess that. If there really are very few pro life feminists around, maybe the type of feminism we ascribe to no longer exists. After all, I’m not sure I’d want to be associated with Clinton’s policies on abortion! Sad.
7
7armyrugrats
Guest
Where are all the pro life feminists in the real world? I have read about them, I have heard here about them, but in the real world I have never met one. Maybe the pro life feminists need to make themselves more visible so that people know that they really are out there and not just a myth.
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FieldofDreams86
Guest
Let me ask this of the “feminists” around here. Would you also call yourselves a masculinist? Think about it for a second…
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Ok, now. The problem with feminism is it is an oxymoron and divisive word. It claims to be about “equality of the sexes” yet it brands such equality with a feminine label. Why should equality be a feminine thing? The usual feminist reply to this is that “women suffer more than men” so they feel the need to parade it around like a battle scar claiming bragging rights. The only measure we use to make the claim “women have it worse” is money in the Western world. Money…and a very skewed interpretation of it at that! Women make 80% of the spending decisions in the Western world so women are clearly more economically influential than men by a long shot! It doesn’t matter who makes the money, it matters whose spending it and on what they spend it.
We’re also socially conditioned to think women have it worse because women are taught to express their emotions / problems in the Western world. Men on the other hand are taught to do the complete opposite. As a result, we are led to believe men / young boys have it wonderful and women don’t. Time Magazine did an article on this recently (time.com/696/what-boys-want/). Furthermore, we turn a blind eye to the sexism men face to the point we deny its exists. Men have had to move seats on planes because apparently all men are pedophiles (blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/08/16/separating-men-and-children-is-discrimination-plane-and-simple/). And another older man was ejected from a Barnes and Noble for shopping in the kids section (articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/05/nation/la-na-nn-barnes-noble-scottsdale-discrimination-20120605). Obamacare is another instance of discrimination against men. We have to pay more for insurance we don’t use as often because the ACA’s feminist authors decided they were entitled to men’s salary. I wish the CBO would compute how much of men’s tax dollars go to services that don’t benefit us. That would quickly erase any pay gap nonsense if it existed in the first place. Need we even bring up the family court system? Hoosier Daddy mentioned what its like to be a primary caretaker dad. If he walked into a “Mommy and Me” program, how welcome do you think he would be? How about we talk about the Selective Service discrimination? If you check out the Selective Service laws by state (sss.gov/fsstateleg.htm) you will find that several female governors signed laws mandating men register with the SS to get a drivers licence and state employment. You didn’t hear the protests about that did you? Only 1 lawsuit ever made it to the Supreme Court about the SS and it got thrown out back in the 80’s.
Men face discrimination too yet we’re supposed to just acquiesce quietly into “feminism” and accept that the issues that face us take a backseat. The word “feminism” allows for no recognition of the discrimination that men face. Hmm…sounds very familiar a feminist complaint about patriarchy! Apparently they do not follow the “do unto others” clause of Christianity. That’s hypocrisy!
So while men are labeled pedophiles by airline and book stores, looked at with suspicion for taking care of even his own children, comprise more than 90% of non-military work related deaths, and are held economically hostage unless we register to be cannon fodder for war “feminism” is still the ONLY way to go??? I’m deeply sorry some women feel their employer / educators slighted them by not answering their questions or not “giving them a seat at the table” but you are not going to change that with feminism. You change that by changing hearts. You don’t change hearts by flaunting a gendered term for oppression in the face of the one you think is oppressing you. In fact you will do the exact opposite and force resentment to boil beneath the surface only further isolating yourselves.
Abigail Adams once said, “Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could. If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies we are determined to forment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice, or representation.” There is no reason to think we can’t substitute men for women and women for men in the above quote if after all we are equal.
I ask again, would you also call yourselves a masculinist? I don’t and no matter how bad things get for guys I never would. I don’t care to stick gender pride in the face of women because I don’t care to isolate myself from 50% of the population. Feminists of any variety on the other hand will ride their pride out. Pride is the most deadly sin because it feels so right and so justifiable! “We were wronged after all” the slogan goes! Pride sets in when faith and forgiveness don’t.
…
…
…
…
Ok, now. The problem with feminism is it is an oxymoron and divisive word. It claims to be about “equality of the sexes” yet it brands such equality with a feminine label. Why should equality be a feminine thing? The usual feminist reply to this is that “women suffer more than men” so they feel the need to parade it around like a battle scar claiming bragging rights. The only measure we use to make the claim “women have it worse” is money in the Western world. Money…and a very skewed interpretation of it at that! Women make 80% of the spending decisions in the Western world so women are clearly more economically influential than men by a long shot! It doesn’t matter who makes the money, it matters whose spending it and on what they spend it.
We’re also socially conditioned to think women have it worse because women are taught to express their emotions / problems in the Western world. Men on the other hand are taught to do the complete opposite. As a result, we are led to believe men / young boys have it wonderful and women don’t. Time Magazine did an article on this recently (time.com/696/what-boys-want/). Furthermore, we turn a blind eye to the sexism men face to the point we deny its exists. Men have had to move seats on planes because apparently all men are pedophiles (blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/08/16/separating-men-and-children-is-discrimination-plane-and-simple/). And another older man was ejected from a Barnes and Noble for shopping in the kids section (articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/05/nation/la-na-nn-barnes-noble-scottsdale-discrimination-20120605). Obamacare is another instance of discrimination against men. We have to pay more for insurance we don’t use as often because the ACA’s feminist authors decided they were entitled to men’s salary. I wish the CBO would compute how much of men’s tax dollars go to services that don’t benefit us. That would quickly erase any pay gap nonsense if it existed in the first place. Need we even bring up the family court system? Hoosier Daddy mentioned what its like to be a primary caretaker dad. If he walked into a “Mommy and Me” program, how welcome do you think he would be? How about we talk about the Selective Service discrimination? If you check out the Selective Service laws by state (sss.gov/fsstateleg.htm) you will find that several female governors signed laws mandating men register with the SS to get a drivers licence and state employment. You didn’t hear the protests about that did you? Only 1 lawsuit ever made it to the Supreme Court about the SS and it got thrown out back in the 80’s.
Men face discrimination too yet we’re supposed to just acquiesce quietly into “feminism” and accept that the issues that face us take a backseat. The word “feminism” allows for no recognition of the discrimination that men face. Hmm…sounds very familiar a feminist complaint about patriarchy! Apparently they do not follow the “do unto others” clause of Christianity. That’s hypocrisy!
So while men are labeled pedophiles by airline and book stores, looked at with suspicion for taking care of even his own children, comprise more than 90% of non-military work related deaths, and are held economically hostage unless we register to be cannon fodder for war “feminism” is still the ONLY way to go??? I’m deeply sorry some women feel their employer / educators slighted them by not answering their questions or not “giving them a seat at the table” but you are not going to change that with feminism. You change that by changing hearts. You don’t change hearts by flaunting a gendered term for oppression in the face of the one you think is oppressing you. In fact you will do the exact opposite and force resentment to boil beneath the surface only further isolating yourselves.
Abigail Adams once said, “Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could. If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies we are determined to forment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice, or representation.” There is no reason to think we can’t substitute men for women and women for men in the above quote if after all we are equal.
I ask again, would you also call yourselves a masculinist? I don’t and no matter how bad things get for guys I never would. I don’t care to stick gender pride in the face of women because I don’t care to isolate myself from 50% of the population. Feminists of any variety on the other hand will ride their pride out. Pride is the most deadly sin because it feels so right and so justifiable! “We were wronged after all” the slogan goes! Pride sets in when faith and forgiveness don’t.
- Status