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GKC
Guest
I once divided the number by the number of countries, and got around 7K, though that is not necessarily the “right” number. But remember. It’s counting each religious entity each time it has a presence in each country, as a separate denomination. Hence, 238 RC denominations.
This number(s), as usually used, is a chain citation, and I’ve never seen it properly cited. Someone reads a reference to 25K or 29K or 31K or 35K denominations, and uses that. It is really useless to try and give a correction, I’ve found.
Sometimes I do, anyway.
GKC
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MaryT777
Guest
Maybe I’m just optimistic that he’s no longer in purgatory.(it’s been a few hundred years)
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manualman
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I have no source handy, but I DID read that ~1,700 (IIRC) number someplace. That’s the number you get if you recognize the actual unity among denominations that cross national lines and if you establish certain theological “buckets” into which you can lump independent churches that functionally hold the same beliefs.
Far short of 41,000 perhaps, but I doubt any of us will be arguing with Jesus on judgement day that we did a good job maintaining unity over the centuries.
Far short of 41,000 perhaps, but I doubt any of us will be arguing with Jesus on judgement day that we did a good job maintaining unity over the centuries.
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TexanKnight
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I read the 41k figure on several cites. I have not studied each one to see their differences. If you have studied all alleged 41000 to determine that each one is similar enough to another to group, then I applaud you. I have not.
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GKC
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I’ve seen those figures, from in the 20Ks, to the 40Ks, cited endlessly. But never sourced. The source is most likely as shown in my post above. If anyone has a source that explains how 41K was determined, and that isn’t from the WCT, I’d like to hear of it. If not, the number appears to be bogus, or its use based on a misunderstanding.
GKC
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manualman
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Heavens no! I just read it somewhere. Can’t recall where, either, so I’m little help there.
Actually studying each sounds too much like work…
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TexanKnight
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lol…that was my thoughtHeavens no! I just read it somewhere. Can’t recall where, either, so I’m little help there.
Actually studying each sounds too much like work…
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bzkoss236
Guest
There is no such thing as a Catholic denomination. There are only rites of the Catholic Church (different than a denomination), and denominations claiming to be part of the Catholic Church, but who are in fact not.
A rite holds to the same doctrine (not necessarily the same theology/description of doctrine), but has a Patriarch from whom their disciplines come, such as whether priests can be married or how Mass is celebrated.
A rite holds to the same doctrine (not necessarily the same theology/description of doctrine), but has a Patriarch from whom their disciplines come, such as whether priests can be married or how Mass is celebrated.
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GKC
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Of course. But the folks who complied the WCT, from which these figures are most likely taken, use the word “denomination” in a particular, idiosyncratic, way, as they explain in the quote I’ve posted above. Every time any religious group has a presence in a country, they count that as a “denomination”. The RCC ( a single entity) has a presence in 238 countries. This counts as 238 “denominations”, using the definition the WCT uses. By the same token, the Episcopal Church in America counts as 16 “denominations”. They have a presence in 16 countries.
GKC
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pablope
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From what I have read, again recalling…the 40k is extrapolated from the time of the initial count to today’s.
So if it was 30k 15 yrs ago…at the rate the denoms denominate and the growth of independents…then that 40K number is not far off.
Just in my area, driving around 1 sunday morning…I saw several ads, announcements if you will…announcing a new church or so…one using a school cafeteria, one in an industrial area… another one announcing they hold services the viewing area of a mortuary/cemetery…
I mean, I was aghast…in a mortuary?
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GKC
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The cited numbers do change, increasing. The data is gathered annually (I think) but only published every 10 years or so. What the “real” figure, using the WCT definition of denomination, should be, I don’t know. Could well be 40K. Using their definition, that is. Since it’s their document, they get to do that.From what I have read, again recalling…the 40k is extrapolated from the time of the initial count to today’s.
So if it was 30k 15 yrs ago…at the rate the denoms denominate and the growth of independents…then that 40K number is not far off.
Just in my area, driving around 1 sunday morning…I saw several ads, announcements if you will…announcing a new church or so…one using a school cafeteria, one in an industrial area… another one announcing they hold services the viewing area of a mortuary/cemetery…
I mean, I was aghast…in a mortuary?
As to a church in a mortuary, it’s probably a best solution to a given situation. We had a fire at our parish about 8 years ago. Severe damage, took months to repair. The first Sunday after, we held Mass at a local protestant church, which was kindly made available to us. From then on, we worshiped at the chapel in the nearby funeral home. It was large, and even had kneelers. One does what one must.
OTOH, if that group at the mortuary was a stand-alone church,and it opened a mission church in, say, Mexico, it’s suddenly two “denominations”. Remember. Every church, of a given group, in each country, is a separate “denomination”. By the WCT definitiion.
GKC
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cmodrmac
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A little perplexed -Jesus Christ the 2 nd person of the Trinity is male in his human nature-but the other 2 members?? -isn’t God the Father a metaphor-surely we can not understand the true nature of the Divine
a metaphor-surely we can not understand the true nature of the Divine
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drac16
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That’s straight out of gnosticism. I’ve read some of the gnostic writings from the Nag Hammadi scrolls and I’ve seen tons of references to androgyny in them.
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tarboy
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So instead of using facts, you opt for the ad homenim approach?
I tend to call out BS when and where I see it, sorry if you feel that puts you in the crosshairs more than you wish
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TexanKnight
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not at all. Having been a city councilman and an attorney, I am used to people as negative as you. I was just expressing my curiousness.So instead of using facts, you opt for the ad homenim approach?
I tend to call out BS when and where I see it, sorry if you feel that puts you in the crosshairs more than you wish
Be blessed
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josie_L
Guest
I had something similar happen to me at a bookstore. I was looking for a Catholic bible when a man just came up to me and told me that the book I was considering was no good. He made the suggestion of reading a book from Elaine Pagel (I think that was her name) on Gnosticism. I, of course, declined graciously and told him I was happy with my choice.
There was another incident wherein I handed some money to a homeless person, and the homeless person tried to proselytize me by asking firstly, if I believed in Jesus? I said that I did, and at this point, he said, “well, Jesus told me you’re the devil”, He then proceeded to say that, “God is nature, He is everywhere, in the trees . . .etc.”. I was somewhat angry, so I responded, “I gave you money, I thank you, now leave me alone”. It was not perhaps my greatest moment but I think I was in a little bit of shock.
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Credo_in_Deum
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Jesus called God Father, and taught us to pray; “Our Father…”. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states;
In the Bible God is said to comfort us like a mother comforts her children but this is hardly evidence for saying we should pray to God the Mother. Let’s not forget the Apostles were told by Christ to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; not, in the name of the Mother and the Son who is the Father, and the Holy Spirit.
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tarboy
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It’s more like being “a city councilman and an attorney” really hones one’s skills in the ad hominem attack. A courtroom is hardly about just presenting the facts, it’s about crafting a story and punching holes in the opposition story. Just like with Prosecutor Corey, one does their best to omit even facts that hurt the narrative.
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Goodforgood
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This is a good summary into the background of the World Mission Society (WMS), but there is more which is quite disturbing. Speaking from experience, my daughter (22) is tangled up with this group for the last 7 months. It is not only that they practice what they believe to be true, but they are outspoken against Catholicism, the Pope, any traditional Christian order. They are against religious statues, Cross/Crucifix, rosary, etc, for these are forms of idolatry. Their teachings in seminars, internet, books boldly describe the Catholic Church to follow pagan traditions, are heretics, and the Pope is Satanic. They believe that Pope Frances will be the last Pope (to some number in the Bible/Revelations). The reason for Ahn Sahng-hong was that someone had to come back for our salvation (also in Revelations ), in which they claim that Jesus died for us to just take on our sinfulness, not our salvation. Ahn Sahng-hong emphasized Passover, Sabbath (Saturday worship), veils for women, for example. They claim 99% events predicted in Revelations happened, and on a number of occasions predicted the end of the world, the 2012 being last the major prediction.
WMS use tactics that instills fear of eternal damnation if one does not follow their doctrine (they are God’s only chose people of which they are called), and interprets scriptures and Bible verses so to show proof of their credibility. They are cunning and convincing, prey on young adults - by themselves - primarily in public/college areas. They are all consuming, having individuals “baptized” into this order, indoctrinate them to their beliefs via “studies” in the Bible; and demand/expect attendance to umpteen services, meetings, social events throughout each week, that it is impossible for one to maintain their traditional relationships/family units, responsibilities (judgement is altered to the benefit of the WMS), not to mention for these young adults to plan furthering their education, careers and maintain their livelihoods. They await the end of the world. I recently attended Bible study on Galatians, and that was my calling to understand what WMS really were: Judaizers .
So, since I brought up my daughter who is unfortunately a part of this group; this is the main reason why I joined Catholic Answers forum. Her involvement and dismissal of our family in our Catholic traditions is heartbreaking and I am seeking advice on a) how to cope in general, b) undo the brainwashing, c) and for her to come back to Catholicism.
Sad but hopeful,
Goodforgood
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