I have a problem with understanding free will

[RobHom]

This is what free will is supposed to be, but can you give any examples where one might make a choice that is wholly independent of circumstance? Every single situation that I can think of, in which we might have a “choice” in the matter, ends up being colored by lots of other things - societal norms, education, previous experience, biology, psychology, personality, etc.

I am going to try and give you a couple of examples. I am a Catholic, so here’s my take, forgive me in advance if some of it seems “simplistic”, but if it is its because so many, in my opinion try to cloud the issue with chaff.

1. If today is a Holy Day of Obligation, or Sunday, as a Catholic I know that I am to be in Church…it is my moral duty as a follower of Christ. But…my friends, non-Catholics, have called and said… “We’re having a party…come on over!” Here is where free will comes into play: I have to make a decision. Regardless of which way I go, I exercise my free will. Now…do I follow the path that is right, or do I worry about missing a party and maybe offending my friends…and even worry about what they say?
2. I am a soldier in a combat unit, engaged in a battle, we emerge victorious. We take captives. Our leader says: Kill the captives. Since the words are spoken by my “superior officer” whom I have sworn and oath to obey…it is an order. Do I do as I am ordered, or do I refuse to comply with the order?
3. I am selling a car. I know the car has mechanical problems. I would still like to receive a certain amount for the car because it is a fair price. A buyer comes to me. He has money in hand. He wants to negotiate. I see that as fair. Do I tell him about the mechanical problem or do I hose him?

Think about those for a second. Answers below.

1. I, as a Catholic…because I believe in God and know because I have been properly taught that my duty is to God, not to my momentary pleasure… I go to Church and worship God. God is forever, my friends momentary.
2. I, as a Catholic, even if I am holding a prisoner or three or ten, or one hundred, and even if I am full of rage and bloodlust for vengeance…know in my heart that I cannot obey an “illegal order”. I do not kill. Even knowing that the possibility exists that I will suffer possible retribution from those around me. Why? Because I do not “murder” anyone, even an enemy. There is a significant distinction between a “combatant” in an active battle and an “unarmed prisoner”. I refuse the order. Not because I know that even if charged with a violation of a superiors order I may face trial…though in the end I will be absolved because the superior of the superior knows the order is illegal, and the one who ordered it is facing more severe penalty…But I do not do it, because I know it is wrong, it is murder.
3. I, as a Catholic, will not hose someone down. Even though the car will be sold “as is”, and that fact so stated on the sales contract… I will not do it. Why…because a few ill-gotten extra dollars made at the cost of an innocent goes against everything that I believe. I will be honest and tell the person the truth. If he decides he does not want the car, so be it. I will wait for the next buyer or lower the price.

Free will…is a gift from God to us. He made us such that we have the right and ability to decide for ourselves which path we choose to take. We can choose to take the path that leads to Him, or we can choose the path to Hell. Its that simple. There are volumes and volumes of writings that “mystify” the subject, but in the end…it is we who decide whether or not we want to be with God or not.

I am well aware that Calvinists and such will disagree, but I fully disagree with them… I am not an “automaton” or “robot” preprogrammed to run a specific course, nor am I at the least bit “Pavlovian” in nature. Save it, that is the “response”. It will fall on very willfully deaf ears. (willfully…indicates the use of Free Will)

 

[RobHom]

There is no real free will. You either serve God or burn in hell for all eternity. Those are the only two choices.

But even you point out that there are two “choices”. The fact that there are in fact two choices to pick from is totally indicative of the existence of “free will”. You get to choose…freely of your own volition. God gave you that right and ability. That is an undeniable fact.

That some choose the wrong path “willingly” and on a daily basis is also proof of free will. Look around you…look at society…look at the world. Tell me that people are not making choices that affect their very salvation.

You can dress up a pig, putting a dress, makeup and lipstick on it, but in the end…its still a pig.

People over complicate the issue. Its so simple its almost hysterical. You decide which you want. God or Hell.

Maybe some don’t really understand the import of the decision when they make it…but later they make a different decision, and go in the opposite direction…toward God. But that does not mean that was how it was supposed to be.

You can’t honestly believe that God was so bored or unimaginative that He had to preprogram every human being to do this or that… Wow…if anyone thinks that…talk about jamming God in a little box and constraining Him…

No, Free Will exists. Its just that some don’t understand it.

 

[PJM]

It doesn’t.

Because if we don’t choose God we go to hell, period, no matter how good of a person we are. Only Christians get to go to heaven.

Opps! NOT TRUE!

And not the teaching of theRRC

There are three kinds of Baptism:

1. By Water and The Holy Spirit
2. By Desire: If a person truly desires to be united with their Christ, and die “with” Christ, God who is “All -Just” will accept them, if for real reasons they are unable to be Baptized with water and the Spirit.
3. By Blood. If one so desires to be united with Chris that they die literally for Christ, God accepts that as baptism into His Church.

God bless,
Pat Miron
Marian Catecheist

 

[KingAlfred]

Like everything else religious, one either takes it on faith, or chooses to dismiss the idea. There is no scientific proof of the existence of Free Will.

 

[ilovekittens]

I am going to try and give you a couple of examples.

But your examples prove my case. In every example, you cite your Catholicism as the reason for the “choice” you make. Thus, your “free” will is heavily colored by your Catholic upbringing, Catholic education, Catholic conscience.
Your will could only be considered free if there was an equal chance that you would have chosen the opposite course of action in the examples you gave, or at least if the outcome wasn’t as predictable as you make it seem.

 

[ilovekittens]

Sure
Did you decide to ask the question, or did someone (some unknown force) MAKE you ask the question?

That my friend is an example you using your free will:thumbsup:

God bless,
Pat Miron
Marian catecheist

Frankly, I didn’t decide, and I certainly wasn’t coerced to write the question. It just happened.

 

[ilovekittens]

Like everything else religious, one either takes it on faith, or chooses to dismiss the idea. There is no scientific proof of the existence of Free Will.

I can agree with this.

 

[a_priori]

No one understands free will. Some people just think they understand it.

 

[ilovekittens]

But even you point out that there are two “choices”. The fact that there are in fact two choices to pick from is totally indicative of the existence of “free will”. You get to choose…freely of your own volition. God gave you that right and ability. That is an undeniable fact.

That some choose the wrong path “willingly” and on a daily basis is also proof of free will. Look around you…look at society…look at the world. Tell me that people are not making choices that affect their very salvation.

You can dress up a pig, putting a dress, makeup and lipstick on it, but in the end…its still a pig.

People over complicate the issue. Its so simple its almost hysterical. You decide which you want. God or Hell.

Maybe some don’t really understand the import of the decision when they make it…but later they make a different decision, and go in the opposite direction…toward God. But that does not mean that was how it was supposed to be.

You can’t honestly believe that God was so bored or unimaginative that He had to preprogram every human being to do this or that… Wow…if anyone thinks that…talk about jamming God in a little box and constraining Him…

No, Free Will exists. Its just that some don’t understand it.

Who exactly chooses the wrong path “willingly?” Give me some examples.
I was watching a cable show last nite about a high-security juvenile detention center in Indiana. The kids were in there for grand theft auto, drug dealing, etc. The stories of some of these kids were discussed; one received his first conviction for theft at age 8, I think. His father was in jail, and his mother was on drugs or something, unable to give him the nurturing he needed. He ended up running with gangs at age 12-13 and eventually was arrested again after stealing a car. Perhaps he will be truly reformed by the juvenile prison system, but it is very easy to see this young man back behind bars in 5 or 10 years, living a life on the edge, perhaps dying young. I guess he would be on the “wrong path,” but I can’t see when he ever made a conscious decision to do that. The wrong path is all he ever knew.

 

[PJM]

Like everything else religious, one either takes it on faith, or chooses to dismiss the idea. There is no scientific proof of the existence of Free Will.

My dear friend in Christ,

This conclusion of yours seems a bit risky to me:shrug:

Faith is a key element in our beliefs, but there are things we can prove, with limited to no faith.

That there is a God for example, seems demonistratable from Creation, and common sense.

And while there is as you indicate "no scientific evidence of “free will”, it too can be assurred by common sense.

In fact the personal choice to accept or reject these statements attest to the reality of our intellect driven, God provided, free will.

Surely God gave us intellects for a purpose:thumbsup:

Thanks for your insight, God Bless,
Pat Miron
Marian Catecheist

 

[crowonsnow]

That there is a God for example, seems demonistratable from Creation, and common sense.

And while there is as you indicate "no scientific evidence of “free will”, it too can be assurred by common sense.

Common sense once told us the sun revolved around the earth and that we should believe in succubae. It tells others that it’s turtles all the way down and that the dodecahedron is mystical.

Asserting the existence of commn sense hardly demonstrates the existence of a free will.

Why do kids die by the millions? Is that due to their common sense or their free will? (rhetorical question)

 

[Prometheus1974]

Oh this is fun…

I wonder if the posters who don’t believe in free will are prepared to live and view life consistantly?

If you don’t believe in free will, it is rediculous to take any pleasure in your own achievements, or in those of others.

Did you cheer when Usain Bolt won the 100 meters? No real point, after all he could not have done otherwise.

Think Mother Theresa is special? Sorry again, she simply did what she had to… no special merit there, no merit at all. Also, no point in getting angry at that Hitler guy, he had no choice in his actions. Don’t apologize for cheating on your spouse, but also don’t seek revenge or justice if you happen to get beaten or raped.

If you do not believe in free will, there can be no good and no evil, no morals no justice, no guilt, no forgiveness… however, I suppose you have no choice about what you feel, so go on feeling happy or sad, it doesn’t mean anything anyway.

Just one last question though… if you don’t believe in free will why are you on an apologetics site arguing with those who do? Can’t you just accept that that is what they are irrevocably compelled by the little dancing atoms in their brains to believe? You don’t honestly think they could… choose… to believe anything else

Never mind, I can answer that myself. You were compelled to come here.

Must… go… to… CAforums…

 

[ilovekittens]

Oh this is fun…

I wonder if the posters who don’t believe in free will are prepared to live and view life consistantly?

If you don’t believe in free will, it is rediculous to take any pleasure in your own achievements, or in those of others.

Did you cheer when Usain Bolt won the 100 meters? No real point, after all he could not have done otherwise.

Think Mother Theresa is special? Sorry again, she simply did what she had to… no special merit there, no merit at all. Also, no point in getting angry at that Hitler guy, he had no choice in his actions. Don’t apologize for cheating on your spouse, but also don’t seek revenge or justice if you happen to get beaten or raped.

If you do not believe in free will, there can be no good and no evil, no morals no justice, no guilt, no forgiveness… however, I suppose you have no choice about what you feel, so go on feeling happy or sad, it doesn’t mean anything anyway.

Just one last question though… if you don’t believe in free will why are you on an apologetics site arguing with those who do? Can’t you just accept that that is what they are irrevocably compelled by the little dancing atoms in their brains to believe? You don’t honestly think they could… choose… to believe anything else

Never mind, I can answer that myself. You were compelled to come here.

Must… go… to… CAforums…

I’ll answer this gladly. I have a lot of trouble accepting the reality of free will. But I am Catholic. Obviously, doubt about free will casts a lot of uncertainty on what I am told to believe as a Catholic. Like you say, good and evil, heaven and hell, etc are very difficult to accept if there is no free will. Why do I post on a Catholic board? Like I said, I am Catholic, and I suppose I am hoping for someone to give a good rebuttal to the thoughts I’ve had on the subject. I haven’t had one yet, though.

 

[twb1621]

I’ll answer this gladly. I have a lot of trouble accepting the reality of free will. But I am Catholic. Obviously, doubt about free will casts a lot of uncertainty on what I am told to believe as a Catholic. Like you say, good and evil, heaven and hell, etc are very difficult to accept if there is no free will. Why do I post on a Catholic board? Like I said, I am Catholic, and I suppose I am hoping for someone to give a good rebuttal to the thoughts I’ve had on the subject. I haven’t had one yet, though.

If you are Catholic, then you have chosen to remain Catholic. If you are a practicing Catholic or not, you also make that choice based on whether you choose to believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church or not. That is if you choose to believe in ALL the teachings of the Catholic Church or not. The fact that you are seeking answers to your question proves the free will or you would not be seeking to know if such exists, because when you do get your answer you will have to choose whether to accept it or not. The fact you have yet to accept any of these answers is your choice based on your will. Anything that provides you proof of its existance lends you toward that choice. But if you believe in God, you are believing not in anything physically proven, but on Faith more than anything which goes against the physical nature. Yes we have free will. I was raised Catholic and turned away to follow my own principles for over 25 years. I chose to search for the truth and returned when I found Him.

 

[PJM]

Common sense once told us the sun revolved around the earth and that we should believe in succubae. It tells others that it’s turtles all the way down and that the dodecahedron is mystical.

Asserting the existence of commn sense hardly demonstrates the existence of a free will.

Why do kids die by the millions? Is that due to their common sense or their free will? (rhetorical question)

Reply

Thanks for your post. I’m not quite sure I follow your logic

Point 1:Common sense did’t tell us about the sun; poor science did.

Point 2:“asserting common sense” tell’s us that the most basic awareness of the powers of our intellect are controlled in great part by the individual possessing the intellect (putting aside education and formation for a minute.) One make’s countless decessions everyday. When one wakes up in the morning, one has to engage ones “free will” to decide if your going to sleep in or get up, and that’s just the first of countless manifestations of ones free will, which can be recogonized and credited for what it is. Right?

Point 3: The issue of abortion has nothing to do with the free will of the “holy innocents” for whom we pray every day, and everything to do with a conterceptive, self focused, blind to God and sin, society that not only permits these Horrors, but actually encourages them, based on some weird understanding of “personal right.” What about those same personal rights for the babies?

Sorry that I could not quite get what you were trying to share with me.

God’s continued love and Blessings,
Pat Miron
Marian Catecheist

 

[Prometheus1974]

I’ll answer this gladly. I have a lot of trouble accepting the reality of free will. But I am Catholic. Obviously, doubt about free will casts a lot of uncertainty on what I am told to believe as a Catholic. Like you say, good and evil, heaven and hell, etc are very difficult to accept if there is no free will. Why do I post on a Catholic board? Like I said, I am Catholic, and I suppose I am hoping for someone to give a good rebuttal to the thoughts I’ve had on the subject. I haven’t had one yet, though.

Hi ilovekittens!

I hope my poor and flippant attempt at humour didn’t offend, but with all due respect you haven’t actually answered my question; or at least maybe you have, but not in the way you think.

I question why you post on a Catholic Board (or any board for that matter) because ultimately, if there is no free will, then either you will or you won’t end your doubt, but nothing you do can alter the outcome. By coming here to post you are acknowledging that you hope to find an answer. That hope is itself based on the possibility that the outcome is not predetermined, and that your action, or will to act (by coming here to ask questions and post) will somehow improve your chances. To truly have no free will is to end all hope. Do not seek an answer, simply sit and accept what is coming to you anyway.

Recall Pascal’s wager: if you don’t believe in God and you are right, you have gained nothing, but if you are wrong, you have lost everything. If you believe in God and you are wrong, you have lost nothing (and some recent studies suggest you will at least have had a better quality of life), but if you are right, then you have gained everything.

I think free will is the same. Whether or not we actually have it (I obviously believe we do), it is the belief in free will that gives meaning and purpose to our actions. To believe otherwise should not just cast some “uncertainty on what I have been taught to believe in as a Catholic”, it should completely dampen any interest you have in pursuing anything, because nothing matters. If you truly do not believe in free will, then why try? Not only are “Heaven or Hell difficult [actually impossible] to accept”, so is trying to make a better world for your children.

Having said all this, I should also add that quantum mechanics completely destroys any purely deterministic concept of reality. Your actions and choices can’t possibly be all pre-determined; at worst, you are the victim of “random will”

 

[PJM]

I’ll answer this gladly. I have a lot of trouble accepting the reality of free will. But I am Catholic. Obviously, doubt about free will casts a lot of uncertainty on what I am told to believe as a Catholic. Like you say, good and evil, heaven and hell, etc are very difficult to accept if there is no free will. Why do I post on a Catholic board? Like I said, I am Catholic, and I suppose I am hoping for someone to give a good rebuttal to the thoughts I’ve had on the subject. I haven’t had one yet, though.

reply:

My dear friend in Christ. Are you kidding, or are we not reading the same post

Bishop has said:'if you find yourself holding an opinion contrary to that of the RCC, chage your position!"

God Bless,
PJM m.c.

 

[crowonsnow]

Point 1:Common sense did’t tell us about the sun; poor science did…

But religion dogmatized it.

The issue of abortion has nothing to do with the free will of the “holy innocents” for whom we pray every day, and everything to do with a conterceptive, self focused, blind to God and sin, society that not only permits these Horrors, but actually encourages them, based on some weird understanding of “personal right.” What about those same personal rights for the babies?

Abortion is abortion. You must be talking therapeutic abortion. I didn’t mean only that. I was referring to the fact that millions of infants, young children and unbirthed will still die every year on this planet anyway, and rhetorically stating that this brute fact demonstrates against an argument that humans possess free will.

 

[PJM]

But religion dogmatized it.

Abortion is abortion. You must be talking therapeutic abortion. I didn’t mean only that. I was referring to the fact that millions of infants, young children and unbirthed will still die every year on this planet anyway, and rhetorically stating that this brute fact demonstrates against an argument that humans possess free will.

Dear friend in Christ,

Sorry, but your wrong again. If there were no “free will” sin could not exist, right? So, Abortion is a sin, do we agree? Thus one must have a “free will.”

James Chapter 5:19 “My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

The RCC teaches that there are Mortal Sins and Venial sins.
In order for something to be a Motal sin, which enstranges us from God, until we reconcile with Him, requires 1. Serious matter, 2. unforced desire to sin, and 3. a willingness to comit the sin. In other words we must use our God given intellect and free will to oppose God’s will. God does not make anyone sin, Satan temps, and we either overcome or surcome.

God’s continued Blessings.
PJM m.c.

 

[crowonsnow]

Sorry, but your wrong again. If there were no “free will” sin could not exist, right? So, Abortion is a sin, do we agree? Thus one must have a “free will.”

“Sin” and “free will” are philosophical constructs. One man’s sin is another man’s salvation. I will agree that neither can be demonstrated. But we can still use these concepts to transmit cultural values and information, which is a good thing.