I have a question about the concept of Hell

[Contarini]

Well, if we have true free will, there would be no ‘wrong choice’.

That doesn’t make sense to me. You are obviously defining “free will” very differently than I do. Could you explain what you mean by this?

It seems to me that if choices don’t have consequences, then choice is meaningless.

Im generally referring to people who choose to live their lives without God in it, that does not mean they are evil people though, I know plenty of people like this, that give money to many charities, help others, are kind to all they meet, but they are just not religious people, Now if people go to hell, just for choosing to live a life like this, keep in mind, a place created for satan and the other fallen, then something seems very wrong with this IMO. Just because someone chooses a life without God in it, does not mean they go about sinning left and right.

To choose a life without God–knowing at some level that God is real and indeed is the only ultimate Reality there is–is the greatest sin possible. All other sin is simply a variation of this–to turn away from God.

Now in my opinion most atheists aren’t turning away from God but from a false idol which has been presented to them as God. They are quite possibly honoring the true God by rejecting this idol.

But that’s not really “choosing a life without God in it.” My hypothetical righteous atheists haven’t genuinely been presented with the choice of having a life with God in it. Their choice is between a false idol and no god/God at all. And in that context, they make the right and God-honoring choice.

If you have caught even the barest whiff of God and you don’t follow that up with everything in you, then you are moving in the direction of hell. Hell simply is “a life without God in it.” Which isn’t really life at all, which is why Scripture calls it eternal death.

Another issue regarding Hell that puzzles me, God clearly says a few times and in a few ways, that not many people will make it to heaven,

No. That is your interpretation of Scripture, but it is an interpretation out of context.

Jesus’ warning about “few being saved,” for instance, was given to people who were smug in their belief that they would be saved because they belonged to God’s chosen people. Jesus used many figures of speech and you have to be careful taking His words literally.

Some Christians have twisted this into exactly the view Jesus was condemning–that those “outside” their group are rejected by God.

so God knows this beforehand, and in a way, it seems Satan has prevailed, in that he managed to win over the majority of souls, but God also says Satan will be defeated. This makes no sense to me, If God knows beforehand that Satan will gain more souls than himself, how does this mean he is defeated? seems the other way around to me.

That’s why your interpretation of Scripture is unlikely to be true in this case.

Finally, the bible states people will experience psychical pain in hell, gnashing of teeth, screaming, weeping, but in other parts of the bible, it is stated heaven and hell are purely spiritual places, and NO ONES psychical body (besides, God himself, Enoch, and I believe Ezekiel) can enter heaven/hell, so how can a person be in their psychical body in heaven or hell?

Scripture speaks of the resurrection of the body both to salvation and to damnation.

However, the physical imagery of heaven and hell in Scripture is almost certainly symbolic.

Edwin

 

[RRusso1982]

Why are religious people more in danger of going to hell than anyone else? I don’t get it.

 

[dshix]

Because we know. We have been informed of the positive divine law, and we know God’s will for us. Our culpability for sin, is much, MUCH greater than that of a person who does not know just how bad the sin is.

 

[Cathoholic]

Why are religious people more in danger of going to hell than anyone else? I don’t get it.

I wouldn’t say it is “religious people” that are in more danger. Muslims can be “religious” yet they still don’t have the gifts of Christianity. Likewise, “hindus” etc. and even the “religion” of secular humanism (although secular humanists wouldn’t put it this way) can be “religious”.

I would say, to those people who have been given more gifts, more is expected from them with those gifts. “To whom much is given, much will be REQUIRED.”
Jesus puts it this way . . .

LUKE 12:48 48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

I hope this info. helps you in your quest RRusso1982 and I will keep you in my prayers.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[campbellronald7]

I think that every sin could be forgiven if one truly admits it of not doing that sin again ,thus there are big sin there are smaller sin smaller sins when done could be asked for forgiveness but when the sin is bigger though there is a forgiveness but it should not be ever repeated in your life.

 

[DrPooh]

Either:Wow Lord you are really fantastic, I have been seeking you all through my life. Or else, Wow Lord you are all beautiful, and I still detect a few spots of pride and vanity lingering in my soul. Where is this Purgatory place so I can do a clean up job to be worthy to be in our presence, to become the kind of person You want me to be! And finally there is the third awful possibility. Well Hello God. I have been dodging You all my life, and I have not the slightest interest in being in your Presence now. I am heading for the Dark Domain.
The conclusion is that we have to try and purify ourselves here in this life, apparently it is easier than in Purgatory.
Walter.

Thank you Father Walter for your contribution to this conversation, because this is the idea that I have been hoping to see while I read this thread. As a social work student, I have learned a lot this year about those in our society who have had the misfortune of being born into utterly unfair and sometimes tortuous conditions. If an innocent child is neglected from birth, lives in poverty, is surrounded by crime and violence, has little quality food to eat, and is never taught about God, how can we expect that child to grow into an adult who lives a loving and charitable life? I pray that this adult will be given a choice upon death–“Here I am, I am sorry you had to live the life you did, so I give you the chance now to believe in Me.” Now that person has a real** choice to make, and if he or she continues to cling to sinful ways, then, well, I guess that is why Hell is there.

I just read a case study of a serial killer yesterday that broke my heart. This man what abused by an alcoholic father and neglected by his mother who already had four children before him. He received no love from anyone throughout his childhood and was unable to form an attachment to any person. At eight he was caught stealing and was sent to a reform school where he was routinely tortured. He would have salt rubbed into the skin of his back and then was whipped while tied to a wooden stake. When he was released from the school as a teenager he had nothing, and he resumed stealing and then firesetting–which has been shown to be a maladaptive way to release the frustration that builds in someone who is helpless to release it at the person who angered them. By this time he was convinced that all adults were evil, and why not? When he was unable to purge his hate and anger by setting fires, he escalated to murder. Years later, a prison guard took interest in him, and for the first time in his life, he had a person who treated him with kindness. Eventually this killer told him that if he had met someone like him years earlier, there would have been fewer people killed by his hand.
No one had ever taught this man to love. No one ever taught him about God, and even if he knew God existed, would he not have been bitter at the life God gave him? I probably would have. We all like to think of Hell as a place for serial killers, people who seem genuinely evil, and yet, many times the people who seem genuinely evil are so because of what we as a society allow to happen to them. I pray that when that man eventually killed himself, that God was there to reveal himself and give him a chance to repent and chose purgatory over Hell. I sure hope that is the case for me. I try not to sin, but I am not going to put myself on some pedestal and say that I am holy enough to always avoid sin. I give in to temptation at times. I strive to be better, but I am a sinner. So as sad as I am to say it, when that day comes that I am chosen to meet God, I hope He will be merciful toward me and allow me to choose purgatory if it be His will.

Thanks for listening. I ask you all a favor–this Thanksgiving, as you give thanks for all the good in your life, please say a prayer for those unfortunates who live in poverty in our own country. There are far too many of them.

Amy

 

[Cathoholic]

mikekle you stated in post 37,

So, if a person lives a good life while alive, helps others, donates money to help, volunteers when needed, etc, BUT is not a religious person and basically chooses to live life they way they see fit…

if what you say is accurate, then this person is no better than a run of the mill criminal, who only cares about themselves and what they can get, or better yet, this person is placed in the same category as Satan and the other fallen angels, and they both end up in the same place…what kind of logic is this LOL? . . . .

. . . . it is all for nothing and they could have lived there life as a bank robber and ended up looking the same in Gods eyes lol

Just re-reading some posts and noticed your question mikekle. I am glad you had a good laugh (out loud or lol).

“There is a place called ‘heaven’ where the good here unfinished is completed; and where the stories unwritten, and the hopes unfulfilled, are continued. We may laugh together yet.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien

You stated:

this person is no better than a run of the mill criminal

Not so. The person TRYING to live a good life IS better off than if they didn’t try. Why?

Well God places a moral law on everyone’s heart. Deep down inside we know much of these things (not all but much). This is called the “Natural Law”.

That is WHY (as you pointed out) . . . .

In our society there is a general sense of what is right and wrong,

In Hell there is a “pain of loss” (not being in Heaven with God) and a “pain of sense” (Ouch!").

At the end of time we ALL get our bodies back ( . . .”and I believe in the Resurrection of the body and the life of the world to come . . .”).

**People who go to Heaven will have their bodies back at the end of time.

People who go to Hell will also have their bodies back at the end of time.**

The glory in Heaven that those in Heaven will receive will be proportional to their charity such as good works (etc.) they did in this life IN GOD’S GRACE. These are “treasures” in Heaven never to be destroyed and will last forever (see Matthew 6:19-20 and Matthew 12:35-36).

(NOT what they have done in this life APART from GRACE.)

Likewise the PAIN IN HELL (for those in Hell), will also be proportional to the evil they did (and good they rejected, etc. There are actually nine ways to sin) in this life too.

I will use a hot oven metaphor.

**
Some people in Hell will “burn” for all eternity at 500 degrees Fahrenheit.

Some people in Hell will “burn” for all eternity at 2500 degrees Fahrenheit (Again, Ouch!).**

St. Augustine way back in the 400’s A.D. was talking about this very concept that justice demands that punishment be proportional to the guilt of a person and states:

ST. AUGUSTINE “In their wretchedness the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others.”

St. Paul puts it this way:

2nd CORINTHIANS 5:10 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

ROMANS 2:5-6 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works . . . .

(See also LUKE 12:37, 40-48 and LUKE 10:12, 15 )

There is not equality of pain for those in hell but rather a disparity based on their guilt in this life, or as the council of Lyons and Florence asserted; the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments (“poenis tamen disparibus puniendas”).

This pain at the end of time will be experienced ALSO IN THE BODY for those in Hell (not just some nebulous sort of “spiritual pain” that someone might think is a fairy tale but is not)!

Keeping all this in mind, (and aside from all of the lol’s), do you now see WHY it is appropriate to warn people?

Do you see WHY even someone who is choosing Hell for themselves, might not want to go “deeper” into Hell?

Do you now see why this (quote below) would be the wrong attitude for them?

. . . . it is all for nothing and they could have lived there life as a bank robber and ended up looking the same in Gods eyes lol

The Roman Catechism (RC) also teaches us why we should teach about hell. The RC states . . .

ROMAN CATECHISM (concerning teachings about hell) “the truth. . . will, if accepted with faithful dispositions, be most powerful in bridling the evil inclinations of the heart and in withdrawing men from sin. Hence we read in Ecclesiasticus (Sirach): ‘In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin.’ And indeed there is scarcely anyone so given over to vice as not to be recalled to virtue by the thought that he must one day render an account before an all-just Judge, not only of all his words and actions, but even of his most secret thoughts, and must suffer punishment according to his deserts.

On the other hand, the just man will be more and more encouraged to lead a good life. Even though his days be passed in poverty, ignominy and suffering, he must be gladdened exceedingly when he looks forward to that day when, the conflicts of this wretched life being over, he shall be declared victorious in the hearing of all men, and shall be admitted into his heavenly country to be crowned with divine honours that shall never fade.”

 

[mikekle]

mikekle you stated in post 37,

Just re-reading some posts and noticed your question mikekle. I am glad you had a good laugh (out loud or lol).

You stated:

Not so. The person TRYING to live a good life IS better off than if they didn’t try. Why?

GREAT POST!!! I was not aware of much of this, and I do understand what you are saying, but I want to give you a hypothetical person/situation…

Lets say we have a man who is not really religious, does not go to mass, or read his bible frequently, does not pray to God, But this man does not commit any crimes, he strives to be a good person, but not in a religious sense. He loves family, friends, and people in general, helps others whenever he can, with giving money, or assistance. donates his time frequently to help others. So really, this guy would appear to be a pretty good person, although he is not religious at all and does not attend mass, read the bible, study scripture, etc.

Does this mean he deserves hell, just because he chose a life of good, but without God in his life?

Or would this person end up in the ‘easiest’ part of Hell?

I may be wrong according to what the bible says, but IMO, I feel a person like this deserves heaven as much as the life long faithful person, after all, both strive for the same general type of life, even though one chooses to worship God and one does not…that really should not matter.

Furthermore, I do not really see why physical pain comes into it, obviously a person such as this is not experiencing any ‘pain’ in this sense while alive on earth, so why would hell would be any different for him, if hell is a separation from God, it would essentially be the same as his life on earth, he does not have God in his life while alive, so that is a voluntary separation, and hell is just an extension of this…right?

Plus, who would be inflicting all the punishment in hell anyway? Satan and the other fallen angels are there for the same reason as human sinners, so it is a place of punishment for them too, and they would be tortured right alongside humans, many people think the demons and satan will be the ones inflicting the torture on human souls, ( I used to think the same thing), but really this does not hold water, after all, the bible does say hell was initially created as THEIR place of binding and punishment, not to be their ‘homey’ domain, but maybe they have their own section of Hell set up specifically for them and human souls are in other sections…? the only thing I can think of that makes sense.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I thank God that God Is God and that none of us are.

I am also thankful that just because someone knows God’s Name doesn’t mean that that someone knows anything else about God.

 

[steve_b]

Why are religious people more in danger of going to hell than anyone else? I don’t get it.

Ignorance, providing it’s innocent, can mitigate fault. iow, a person innocently doesn’t know what they need to know about a subject. When it’s NOT innocent is when a person who has the ability available to them, takes little effort to know what they should know. In that case ignorance isn’t an escape for them.

No one is considered ignorant of the natural law. That is written on each person’s heart.

1791 , 1860

 

[fred_conty]

Of course you should go with Jesus. I would to - Jesus definitely knew what he was talking about. But Jesus never said there was eternal hell or that you would go there if you used contraceptives or masturbated. And the fact of reincarnation was just suppressed by some powerful Roman emperor, Jesus had nothing to do with that.

Actually there is no proof either way on which theory is true - eternal damnation for trivial sins(or unfortunate circumstances - like being killed before chance to repent). Or punishment proportional to crime or sin and another chance at life to do better. There can be no proof unless we meet someone from the other side.

Absent any proof, the only thing we have left is logic, common sense and a theory that is just and equitable, because if we believe in a loving and just God, it must be so.

Is it just that a eighteen year old gets condemned to hell if he commits some mortal sin and gets hit by a bus before he can repent? And that a nasty old man who has not done anything for anyone in his whole life, but who repents all sins just before death gets to go to eternal heaven? Is it just that the fate of unbaptized babies is unknown, that perhaps all of them do not go to heaven? - But if they do go to heaven, what have they done to deserve that - is it fair? Do you believe in a just God? Or do you believe in some historical dogma which is not backed by Jesus’s personal words?

Jesus did say if you love me keep my commandments.
He also said that he would let the good and bad exist together until the end of the world. Then they would be separated.

The reason a catholic dosen’t believe in reincarnation in the sense that a hindu does is that catholocism believes only in Jesus’ kingdom. And Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. And he said that he would be coming back to take those with him who were his faithful followers, and give them happiness forever in his new kingdom.

The church officially has not said anything with regard to the fate of unbaptised babies. The Popes have said that we must rely on the mercy and love of God.

The church officially does not sit in judgment on young men or old men. It is officially in the work of bringing the message of a future kingdom for those who wish to listen to the Father’s son, Jesus. “This is my beloved son in whom I am will pleased, listen to him.”

Jesus backs all the church’s historical dogmas because he created the church to teach men to love God and to love each other. A dogma is this teaching.

For instance “blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God” and the church reiterates this by backing up the the commandment which requires us to respect our sexuality. “But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Jesus teaches that the human body is holy, that thru baptism the body is the receptical of the Holy Spirit and must be honored as such, just as the ark of the covenant was honored.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

 

[Cathoholic]

mikekle you asked in post 48

Does this mean he deserves hell, just because he chose a life of good, but without God in his life?

I thought the same thing that Tom Baum said – that it is God (not me) who is going to do the judging in this ultimate sense. And I am glad it is not me.

I also thought of what steve b said, “No one is considered ignorant of the natural law. That is written on each person’s heart.” You yourself acknowledged as much (“In our society there is a general sense of what is right and wrong”). That’s because God puts the natural law directly in our hearts.

So when you asked:

Does this mean he deserves hell, just because he chose a life of good, but without God in his life?

Nobody deserves hell BECAUSE he chose a good life. But this does not mean they deserve or don’t deserve hell.

But if, “he chose a life of good, but without God” he did not really choose a life of “good” at least if he KNEW he was rejecting God did he?

The hypothetical man you are bringing up here CHOSE a life of REJECTION of God. . . . Or . . .

Or he may be “invincibly ignorant” concerning God. I am not going to get into that issue (of “invincible ignorance”) on this thread but you can search it for yourself if interested.

Don’t get me wrong. The works you are talking about ARE important. But unless they are animated by God’s GRACE they are not good enough. I attempted to give an idea about grace works as opposed to works on our own accord here. Of course you need the grace of faith too (not just works). Also the gift of hope.

You need to do these works but you need to do them in GRACE.

As far as how people suffering in Hell, I just don’t understand it completely (thankfully).

I also don’t understand completely how we suffer even here on earth—but suffer we do.

I will put in a larger portion of the Roman Catechism on this subject (next post) and hopefully will provide you with good insights.

St. Thomas Aquinas may give you some answers too (here)

These books may possibly also give you more insight.

Hell: The Dogma of Hell, Illustrated by Facts Taken from Profane and Sacred History plus How to Avoid Hell by F. X. Schouppe

What Will Hell Be Like? By: St. Alphonsus Liguori

You also stated (bold mine):

both strive for the same general type of life, even though one chooses to worship God and one does not…that really should not matter.

It matters.

May I suggest meditating upon the majesty of God? Seriously. Try to spend a couple of days or so just thinking about God and His majesty more than usual mikekle. Be sure to take some time in prayer where you just WORSHIP God too (don’t “ask" God for anything at those times. Just worship God because He deserves worship and it is fitting that we worship Him).

In your points the ideas brought out by you, are exiting the sphere of mere “intellect” and entering into the (also necessary) territory of our “will” and God’s “grace”. All are needed to be considered in this mystery of eternal judgment you are asking about.

That is one of the reasons why it is up to God to judge.

I’ll put the Roman Catechism quote on the next post.

 

[Cathoholic]

Back in January 31st, 2000, US News & World Report had a “picture” or caricature of hell on its cover (go to the library and look at it). (If anyone can find it online please link here to it)

The picture painted is sunbathing, beverages, and playing volleyball with all of your buddies that will also be in hell.

No picture could be further from the truth.

This is the idea the world want to put into your (and others) heads.

The Church suggests there will be no consolation of buddies (“companions and sharers”) in hell that you will be aware of.

In hell there WILL be a constant hassle from demons who will no longer have a reason to hide themselves from people as they do in this world.

In this world, demons hide themselves because if they were out in the open, people would be exceedingly repulsed and be seeking God merely to avoid hell instead of to go and be with God. Yet God wants us to love Him freely for His own sake. But with a free will, He won’t force us to do so. Satan always trying to “ape” God, also wants us to seek him and hell of our own volition.

Don’t get me wrong. It is good to want to go to Heaven and avoid Hell. But God wants us to want to go to Heaven first and foremost to be with HIM. Yes in a secondary sense we clearly want to avoid Hell too.

From the Roman Catechism (bold mine)

From Article VII (last portion)
The Sentence Of The Wicked

From Article VII (last portion)
The Sentence Of The Wicked

Turning next to those who shall stand on His left, He will pour out His justice upon them in these words: Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

The first words, depart from me, express the heaviest punishment with which the wicked shall be visited, their eternal banishment from the sight of God, unrelieved by one consolatory hope of ever recovering so great a good. This punishment is called by theologians the pain of loss, because in hell the wicked shall be deprived forever of the light of the vision of God.

The words ye cursed, which follow, increase unutterably their wretched and calamitous condition. If when banished from the divine presence they were deemed worthy to receive some benediction, this would be to them a great source of consolation. But since they can expect nothing of this kind as an alleviation of their misery, the divine justice deservedly pursues them with every species of malediction, once they have been banished.

The next words, into everlasting fire, express another sort of punishment, which is called by theologians the pain of sense, because, like lashes, stripes or other more severe chastisements, among which fire, no doubt, produces the most intense pain, it is felt through the organs of sense. When, moreover, we reflect that this torment is to be eternal, we can see at once that the punishment of the damned includes every kind of suffering.

The concluding words, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, make this still more clear. For since nature has so provided that we feel miseries less when we have companions and sharers in them who can, at least in some measure, assist us by their advice and kindness, what must be the horrible state of the damned who in such calamities can never separate themselves from the companionship of most wicked demons? And yet most justly shall this very sentence be pronounced by our Lord and Saviour on those sinners who neglected all the works of true mercy, who gave neither food to the hungry, nor drink to the thirsty, who refused shelter to the stranger and clothing to the naked, and who would not visit the sick and the imprisoned.

 

[Contarini]

I wouldn’t say it is “religious people” that are in more danger. Muslims can be “religious” yet they still don’t have the gifts of Christianity. Likewise, “hindus” etc. and even the “religion” of secular humanism (although secular humanists wouldn’t put it this way) can be “religious”.

I would say, to those people who have been given more gifts, more is expected from them with those gifts.

Which is why I would say that, for instance, Muslims are in more danger of hell than pagans or people who have never been exposed to any concept of God. So I would apply it across the board. The closer you come to the truth, the higher the stakes on both sides. You have the opportunity to have a relationship with God of which those who don’t know the truth cannot even dream. But if you twist that opportunity into a pretext for pride and self-righteousness and hatred, as so many of us do, then God’s judgment will fall on you in this life and the next.

Edwin

 

[mikekle]

In hell there WILL be a constant hassle from demons who will no longer have a reason to hide themselves from people as they do in this world.

In this world, demons hide themselves because if they were out in the open, people would be exceedingly repulsed and be seeking God merely to avoid hell instead of to go and be with God. Yet God wants us to love Him freely for His own sake. But with a free will, He won’t force us to do so. Satan always trying to “ape” God, also wants us to seek him and hell of our own volition.

That makes no sense, Hell was created for the punishment of Satan and the fallen angels, if they are in such a place, how would they be doing any hassling? They would be suffering just as much as a human soul…(if what you say is accurate).

God also speaks of a ‘great void’ as to prevent anyone from coming and going from Hell, the verse where someone in Hell asks for a drop of water, and it is explained to him that NOTHING is able to cross that void (come and go from Hell), so this would also include the demons, HOWEVER, if they are ‘exempt’, then this would tell me Hell is not a place of punishment for them, but more like a ‘home base’ of operations.

I also have to mention, In quite a bit of other instances, where specific bible verses are asked to be explained on here, often is said the particular verse is symbolic or metaphorical instead of literal, how does one know this is not also the case with all the talk of Hell?

 

[Contarini]

That makes no sense, Hell was created for the punishment of Satan and the fallen angels, if they are in such a place, how would they be doing any hassling? They would be suffering just as much as a human soul…(if what you say is accurate).

No, I don’t think that follows at all. A damned being, whether human or not, would be existing in a state of torment by definition–especially one not shielded from ultimate reality by the conditions of earthly existence, as we currently are (which is why this life is a “time of probation”). People who are in torment themselves, even in this life, can in fact be a source of intense torment to others.

My understanding of Revelation is that at the final judgment, the power of the demons to tempt and torment those who have not definitely rejected God will be ended forever, and all those who have rejected God (human or angelic alike) will thenceforth only be able to harm each other.

I also have to mention, In quite a bit of other instances, where specific bible verses are asked to be explained on here, often is said the particular verse is symbolic or metaphorical instead of literal, how does one know this is not also the case with all the talk of Hell?

Certainly. But we learn from the Church to discern the meaning of the imagery. Metaphor isn’t meaningless. The fact that people think it is demonstrates how impoverished our understanding of language (and hence of reality) is in this culture.

Edwin

 

[mikekle]

No, I don’t think that follows at all. A damned being, whether human or not, would be existing in a state of torment by definition–especially one not shielded from ultimate reality by the conditions of earthly existence, as we currently are (which is why this life is a “time of probation”). People who are in torment themselves, even in this life, can in fact be a source of intense torment to others.

My understanding of Revelation is that at the final judgment, the power of the demons to tempt and torment those who have not definitely rejected God will be ended forever, and all those who have rejected God (human or angelic alike) will thenceforth only be able to harm each other.

Edwin

Well, if all the beings in Hell, angelic or human, have chosen to willingly reject God,it seems to me, they would get along, in the sense that everyone there would have the same feelings towards God, so why would they be trying to harm each other?

In regards to Satan and the demons ability to tempt humans today. tells me that hell is not the place of punishment many think it is…for them anyway, after all, how are they able to bypass that ‘great void’, if demons are currently allowed to cross it, then they are most certainly not in a place of punishment.

The more I think about this topic, I tend to think God created Hell as a kind of ‘headquarters’ for satan and his fallen angels, or a place to operate from, they are not welcome in heaven anymore, so they would have to reside somewhere, Hell seems to be that place, while at some point in the future, after Gods second coming, the demons and satan will be chained and bound in Hell, but they are not now, and if it is true that the demons will be tormenting human souls in hell, then that means they themselves are not suffering, after all, for a being to spend time torturing and inflicting pain on others, implies that they, themselves, are not in any kind of physical pain. How else could satan rule over hell?

 

[Contarini]

Well, if all the beings in Hell, angelic or human, have chosen to willingly reject God,it seems to me, they would get along, in the sense that everyone there would have the same feelings towards God, so why would they be trying to harm each other?

No. You’re thinking about this as if there were two sides–God and Satan. That’s not orthodox Christianity. God is Good. God is Being Itself. To reject God is to be fundamentally divided against oneself and against all other beings.

If you hate God, then necessarily you hate yourself and all other beings as well, because nothing exists except through participation in God.

In regards to Satan and the demons ability to tempt humans today. tells me that hell is not the place of punishment many think it is…for them anyway, after all, how are they able to bypass that ‘great void’, if demons are currently allowed to cross it, then they are most certainly not in a place of punishment.

I think you’re taking this language too literally. I don’t think the “void” is physical so much as moral/spiritual. The “gulf” doesn’t separate demons from sinful human beings in this world.

Edwin

 

[Cathoholic]

mikekle. You stated:

That makes no sense, Hell was created for the punishment of Satan and the fallen angels, if they are in such a place, how would they be doing any hassling? They would be suffering just as much as a human soul…(if what you say is accurate).

WHY do you think because demons suffer that they will be unable to harass fallen humans in a situation of eternal condemnation?

What evidence do you have to back that up (admittedly the quote I gave just intimated this but I may be able to go deeper if necessary as I have more material to draw from).

But I will wait for your response and take it from there.

You also said:

God also speaks of a ‘great void’ as to prevent anyone from coming and going from Hell, the verse where someone in Hell asks for a drop of water, and it is explained to him that NOTHING is able to cross that void

Why do you think because Father Abraham says in Luke 16 “we” cannot go to the place of “torment” that (assuming this “place of torment” is eternal condemnation) the demons who end up being placed there cannot go and harass the people amongst themselves (or go to earth to harass us now if God allows it)?

I also have to mention, In quite a bit of other instances, where specific bible verses are asked to be explained on here, often is said the particular verse is symbolic or metaphorical instead of literal, how does one know this is not also the case with all the talk of Hell?

This is a good question. The best way to do that if you accept the authority of the Church (and I do), is probably read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) AND then the Roman Catechism. Then go back and re-read the CCC and start looking up footnotes to the Bible verses. Then you will get a deeper “mind of the Church”.

Then read the four Gospels, the rest of the New Testament, then go back and read the Old Testament and the New again.

At this point you will very naturally fill that out with the ancient Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church’s writings (often just excerpts as not all of this is even translated into English yet), and it will take you even deeper.

You will find yourself anticipating teachings that you find elsewhere (like Council statements) because you will be thinking with the mind in union with the Church. That’s my suggestion anyway.

Addendum: I just read your other post (57).

You said:

Well, if all the beings in Hell, angelic or human, have chosen to willingly reject God, it seems to me, they would get along, . . .

The demons hate each other now although there is a might makes “right” pecking order. They will always hate each other (absence of love). They hate themselves too. They hate humans as well.

You said:

for a being to spend time torturing and inflicting pain on others, implies that they, themselves, are not in any kind of physical pain

Well first of all I wouldn’t characterize a spiritual being like a fallen angel as having “physical” pain but I think I know what you mean here.

Perhaps some people are at their orneriest when they are suffering. Even an injured bear is more likely to inflict pain when he/she is suffering. What made you think demons can’t inflict pain on people merely because they themselves are suffering mikekle?

This book (Hell: The Dogma of Hell, Illustrated by Facts Taken from Profane and Sacred History plus How to Avoid Hell) may also be helpful for you too.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Seems as if quite a few think that they know quite a bit about hell when they have no first hand experience and most if not all of their second hand experience is from those that have no first hand experience.

As far as the story that Jesus spoke of concerning the “void” that couldn’t be crossed, Jesus spoke of this story before He went to the cross, something to think about.