I have a question on God's Omnisciense

[JamesCaruso]

It is the definition of omniscience itself. I can surely see how God can see the future of all cuase and effect type things. No problem. I can even see how he can see future “free will” decisions that we make, owing IMO to the fact that while we have free will, we do not have it perfectly, because we have fallen natures and are either somewhat slaves to sin or OTOH not perfectly slaves to obedience by virtue of sanctifying grace. My question has to do with perfect free agency.

We know that God cannot do certain things such as commit evil, break His own promise, or cease to exist. These go without saying. My question has to do with His ability to “know” the result of an exercise of perfect free will, that is, free will that has not been weakened by sin. My reasoning is that if a person possesses perfect free will, then his exercise of that free will, being that it is perfect, is unpredictable. I can see where God can see what you or I will do because we are not perfectly free. To some degree all of us are enslaved to our sinful nature, at least, until we have reached the perfection of heaven. But if we were perfectly free as Mary and before her, Eve, was, could God “know” with absolute certitude what we would decide?

I see God’s existing outside of time to mean that time is irrelevant to Him, because He is perfect and thereby unchanging. It does not mean to me that He is in the future or in the past, but that His future and past are the same as His present, since He is unchanging. OTOH, our existence is a series of instances, no two exactly alike, at least, until we reach the perfection of heaven. In this way of looking at it, it is easy to see how God can see the future of anything that is strictly cause and effect, the material world. But perfect free will seems, at least in my mind, to transcend the material world of cause and effect. If a exercise of free will is truly free, it seems to me that God has placed a restriction on this case and His own choice, and created a future fact that even He cannot know.

I am interested in what others have to say on this.

 

[Euwe]

I understand the concept of Omniscience.

Trying to conceptualise Omniscience however is difficult for the human mind because we are all trapped in another concept called Time.

The explanation in the OP is pretty good though.

 

[JimG]

You seem still to be placing God somehow in time. He is not in time. It is not a matter of somehow deducing the outcome of free actions. It is a matter of seeing all things simultaneously, not as a sequence of cause and effect. God doesn’t have to figure out what we will do with a perfectly free will. He sees what we have done, and will do, with it. Except that with HIm, it is not a matter of “have done and will do;” it’s just a matter of seeing what is.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

It is the definition of omniscience itself. I can surely see how God can see the future of all cuase and effect type things. No problem. I can even see how he can see future “free will” decisions that we make, owing IMO to the fact that while we have free will, we do not have it perfectly, because we have fallen natures and are either somewhat slaves to sin or OTOH not perfectly slaves to obedience by virtue of sanctifying grace. My question has to do with perfect free agency.

We know that God cannot do certain things such as commit evil, break His own promise, or cease to exist. These go without saying. My question has to do with His ability to “know” the result of an exercise of perfect free will, that is, free will that has not been weakened by sin. My reasoning is that if a person possesses perfect free will, then his exercise of that free will, being that it is perfect, is unpredictable. I can see where God can see what you or I will do because we are not perfectly free. To some degree all of us are enslaved to our sinful nature, at least, until we have reached the perfection of heaven. But if we were perfectly free as Mary and before her, Eve, was, could God “know” with absolute certitude what we would decide?

I see God’s existing outside of time to mean that time is irrelevant to Him, because He is perfect and thereby unchanging. It does not mean to me that He is in the future or in the past, but that His future and past are the same as His present, since He is unchanging. OTOH, our existence is a series of instances, no two exactly alike, at least, until we reach the perfection of heaven. In this way of looking at it, it is easy to see how God can see the future of anything that is strictly cause and effect, the material world. But perfect free will seems, at least in my mind, to transcend the material world of cause and effect. If a exercise of free will is truly free, it seems to me that God has placed a restriction on this case and His own choice, and created a future fact that even He cannot know.

I am interested in what others have to say on this.

Only God has perfectly free will. Not even the Angels have perfect free will. And we will not have it in heaven either. The free wills of Angels and men are limited by their natures, our natures allow us a limited degree of perfection, both of intellect and of free will.

These are questions we will never know unless God enlightens us and I don’t think he is likely too and we certainly shouldn’t be wasting time thinking about it.

St. Augustine, while strolling on the beach and puzzling over the Trinity, observed a child running back and forth between the beach and the ocean carrying a sea shell of water. Augustine asked the child what he was doing and the child told him he was going to put the ocean in this hole on the beach. Augustine laughed and said, " that is impossible. " And the child replied, " I will put the whole ocean in this hole before you figure out the Trinity. " You should think about that.

Linus2nd

 

[JamesCaruso]

You seem still to be placing God somehow in time. He is not in time. It is not a matter of somehow deducing the outcome of free actions. It is a matter of seeing all things simultaneously, not as a sequence of cause and effect. God doesn’t have to figure out what we will do with a perfectly free will. He sees what we have done, and will do, with it. Except that with HIm, it is not a matter of “have done and will do;” it’s just a matter of seeing what is.

No, I’m not putting God in time. Stop and think about it, what makes time time? If it were not for change, would we perceive of something we could call time? No, Time is like a measure of motion, a measure of change. Where there is no change, there is no time. Even a rock is composed of zillions of atoms which are a beehive of activity. Everything in the material world is marked by change and therefore subject to time. What I am saying is that just because God is outside of time does not mean, at least in my mind, that he is present to the future. No. I think it means He is present to the present. For Him there is no future. When He looks at us, what He sees is our present, the present instance. He does not see the future, because the future does not exist. Only the present moment exists. Through His Omnipotence He can figure the future by knowing the exact cause and effect of all things that are in motion. In this way He knows what the future of the material world will be, but for the factor of free agency. If, as others here say, there is no perfectly free agency, then I would conceded that he knows the future, but not be seeing, but only by calculating and projecting. One cannot see what does not exist, and I defy anyone to prove to me that the future already exists. It is a self-contradictory proposition IMO. If it existed, it would be the present. What I have not done cannot exist for God if it does not exist for me. I cannot be held to have done what I have not yet done. Calculation and projection are one thing, but seeing the future as the present is giving God more than Omniscience, it is giving God impossible powers as well. God cannot be present to the future, even if He is out of time, because the future does not yet exist…anywhere. That’s how I see… so far everything else seems double talk and not scripturally or otherwise revealed. Believe me, I would like to give God all His due, but just as I find Him limited by not being able to commit evil, I find Him limited by not being able to change the very laws and nature of time which He has created.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Only God has perfectly free will. Not even the Angels have perfect free will. And we will not have it in heaven either. The free wills of Angels and men are limited by their natures, our natures allow us a limited degree of perfection, both of intellect and of free will.

These are questions we will never know unless God enlightens us and I don’t think he is likely too and we certainly shouldn’t be wasting time thinking about it.

St. Augustine, while strolling on the beach and puzzling over the Trinity, observed a child running back and forth between the beach and the ocean carrying a sea shell of water. Augustine asked the child what he was doing and the child told him he was going to put the ocean in this hole on the beach. Augustine laughed and said, " that is impossible. " And the child replied, " I will put the whole ocean in this hole before you figure out the Trinity. " You should think about that.

Linus2nd

I can’t prove it, but I believe Mary had free will not subject to concupiscence. I believe the angels did as well. But whether or not they did or did not, the question still stands.

If they don’t have free will then God can “calculate” what the future will be on a cause and effect basis. My difficulty is not with God’s ability to foresee, but with the proposition that He sees. The future does not exist, therefore neither God nor anyone can see it. God may “foresee” it, but that is as far as I can take it. Those who say that he is present to the future, lose me. If I have not done something, God cannot be present to my doing it before I do it. If He foresees what I will do, it must only be owing to the fact that I do not have perfect free will. If a creature does have free will, and I contend that God can give a creature that kind of perfection, that is, allow a creature to be actually free to choose to do either A or B, then I further contend that God by His own choosing cannot see whether the creature will choose A or B. Not being able to see his future choices must go hand in hand with conferring free will on a creature, if in fact the angels, or Mary, were really (forget the term “perfect”, which I used before) free to choose to do or to abstain from evil. Even with lots of actual graces, it seems to me that if such graces were bestowed to the point of being 100% effective, then the creature would effectively lack free will. I seem stuck with the conviction that God cannot see what does not exist (the future) although He may “foresee” it.

I heard your story first when I was in grade school. The nuns told it with Peter walking along the seashore contemplating the Trinity, then coming upon a child making a passageway from a hole he had dug to the sea. When questioned, he told Peter that he was going to drain the ocean into the hole he had dug, thereby illustrating the impossibility of fathoming the Infinite Trinity with finite minds.

 

[bzkoss236]

It is the definition of omniscience itself. I can surely see how God can see the future of all cuase and effect type things. No problem. I can even see how he can see future “free will” decisions that we make, owing IMO to the fact that while we have free will, we do not have it perfectly, because we have fallen natures and are either somewhat slaves to sin or OTOH not perfectly slaves to obedience by virtue of sanctifying grace. My question has to do with perfect free agency.

We know that God cannot do certain things such as commit evil, break His own promise, or cease to exist. These go without saying. My question has to do with His ability to “know” the result of an exercise of perfect free will, that is, free will that has not been weakened by sin. My reasoning is that if a person possesses perfect free will, then his exercise of that free will, being that it is perfect, is unpredictable. I can see where God can see what you or I will do because we are not perfectly free. To some degree all of us are enslaved to our sinful nature, at least, until we have reached the perfection of heaven. But if we were perfectly free as Mary and before her, Eve, was, could God “know” with absolute certitude what we would decide?

I see God’s existing outside of time to mean that time is irrelevant to Him, because He is perfect and thereby unchanging. It does not mean to me that He is in the future or in the past, but that His future and past are the same as His present, since He is unchanging. OTOH, our existence is a series of instances, no two exactly alike, at least, until we reach the perfection of heaven. In this way of looking at it, it is easy to see how God can see the future of anything that is strictly cause and effect, the material world. But perfect free will seems, at least in my mind, to transcend the material world of cause and effect. If a exercise of free will is truly free, it seems to me that God has placed a restriction on this case and His own choice, and created a future fact that even He cannot know.

I am interested in what others have to say on this.

I think the problem is that you are trying to confine God to time. Time is a creation of God’s, and so he is not bound by it. So, he doesn’t see “future” events, because for him there is no past, present, or future, he sees all of time, every moment, at the same “moment”. So, he doesn’t need to predict outcomes, because he sees the outcomes.

 

[JimG]

Of course God can be, and is, present to the future, because it is not ‘future’ to him. It is present.

God created space, time, matter, and energy. Matter occupies space and it occupies time. It extends itself in space and in time. God does not. He is pure spirit.

The most essential difference between us and God is this: we hold our existence and our consciousness not fully, but instant by instant. We are never in full possession of the totality of our being. But God holds his existence–and ours–as a totality. The future does not need to be calculated by him. It is present to him. It is all now.

If God had to ‘calculate’ the future, he would be living in, and subject to, time. But he is not. Time is subject to him.

Look at a television picture. Each frame is built up–over time–(a matter of milliseconds) by a series of linear sweeps of pixels across the screen. It is built up pixel by pixel. From a single pixel’s point of view, it is a temporal series of single flashes of colored light. But we don’t experience it that way–we see the picture as a totality.

In the same way, God sees all of the universe including us and our timelines, as a totality, not a sequence.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Of course God can be, and is, present to the future, because it is not ‘future’ to him. It is present.

God created space, time, matter, and energy. Matter occupies space and it occupies time. It extends itself in space and in time. God does not. He is pure spirit.

The most essential difference between us and God is this: we hold our existence and our consciousness not fully, but instant by instant. We are never in full possession of the totality of our being. But God holds his existence–and ours–as a totality. The future does not need to be calculated by him. It is present to him. It is all now.

If God had to ‘calculate’ the future, he would be living in, and subject to, time. But he is not. Time is subject to him.

Look at a television picture. Each frame is built up–over time–(a matter of milliseconds) by a series of linear sweeps of pixels across the screen. It is built up pixel by pixel. From a single pixel’s point of view, it is a temporal series of single flashes of colored light. But we don’t experience it that way–we see the picture as a totality.

In the same way, God sees all of the universe including us and our timelines, as a totality, not a sequence.

I cannot agree. Being outside of time does not mean that God is present to, or can be present to, the future. The future does not exist. It is only a concept, a way of referring to a present that does not yet exist. Likewise, the past does not exist. It once existed, and at that time it was called the present. When we refer to the past we are referring to the conditions that once existed but no longer exist. To say that God is present to the future is tantamount to saying that God experiences time, which He does not-- He is eternally present, the Great I Am. No one, not even God, can be present to what is nonexistent. That is not to diminish God in any way. It is similar to saying that God cannot lie, or God cannot cease to exist.

I think the misunderstanding has to do with our concept of time. Whereas everyone is quick to point out that God is not in time, they seem slow to realize that time is not contained within infinity. They are two different things. Time is not a short or small piece of infinity-- on the contrary, time is apart from infinity. Infinity has no smaller parts or segments that we can call time. Infinity is one, without beginning or end, or parts in between. Too often I believe we think of creation as occurring at some point in infinity, as in thinking at some point God decided to create the universe. Not true. Infinity contains no points-- it is one. God is not “I am who continues to be”, He is “I am who am”-- there is no “continuing” in Him for that would put Him in time. He is the eternal present, which is not to say that He is at the future and the past-- no, He is eternally at the present, since the future and the past do not exist. The future and the past are not contained in infinity, only the present. God’s infinite present touches our instant present. Our existence is a series of presents. God’s existence is the present. There is only one present for both man and God.

Another way to look at it is that the future does not exist, it is only the way we conceptualize an anticipated change in the present. If I will be bald in fifty years, God cannot be present today to my baldness fifty years from now. He can know that it will happen, that’s what I mean by calculate or foresee, but he can’t be present to what does not exist. That would be a contradiction to the very rules that he has established. I don’t think that it diminishes God in any way to say this, no more than saying that God cannot contradict Himself. Fifty years from now does not exist, not even in infinity. Don’t forget, infinity is not in time, nor is time in infinity.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Of course God can be, and is, present to the future, because it is not ‘future’ to him. It is present.

The future is not present to God because the future does not exist. If it did exist, then I would be guilty today for a sin that I commit tomorrow, but the Church clearly teaches that I am not guilty of sin until I commit it. If I have not committed that sin, how can God be present to it since it simply does not exist. He may foresee it, but by His own rules, I am not guilty of it until I commit it.

Can anyone point me to a scripture that says that God is already in the future? We all accept that he “foresees” the future and that He knows all things, but to already be at a place or point in time that does not yet exist is beyond possibility IMHO.

I

 

[JamesCaruso]

I think the problem is that you are trying to confine God to time. Time is a creation of God’s, and so he is not bound by it. So, he doesn’t see “future” events, because for him there is no past, present, or future, he sees all of time, every moment, at the same “moment”. So, he doesn’t need to predict outcomes, because he sees the outcomes.

For “Him” there is no past, present or future because he is without change. But when He looks at his creation, there is past, present and future, not for Him, but for us, because the created universe is subject to change. To me, infinity and time are mutually exclusive. Time is no part of infinity and infinity is no part of time. Infinity is not a continuum, or time without beginning or end, it just is. Time OTOH is a continuum, having a beginning and possibly an end. It is the measure of change, and so long as there is change, there will be time. If everything suddenly came to a stand still, time would cease to exist.

No, I don’t think God sees outcomes in the sense that He is present to them, but only in the sense that He sees what they will be. God cannot be present to me at forty if I am still twenty. That would be to say that I am simultaneously all ages, which is not the case. I do not exist anywhere in his creation as a forty-year old. That is illogical and cannot in my mind be how infinity works, or what is meant by an infinite God. If he is present to a forty-year old me, believe me when I say, it is not me. After all, I should know.

 

[JimG]

I cannot agree. Being outside of time does not mean that God is present to, or can be present to, the future. The future does not exist. It is only a concept, a way of referring to a present that does not yet exist.

Let me amend that a little. My future at this moment does not yet exist to me because I am moving forward into the future on a moment by moment basis. But for one who lives in eternity—i.e., God—all futures exist as “now.”

It’s quite true that God does not exist “in” time. But time is not beyond his purview. If one takes the position that God can only know the temporal present for any given human being, one cannot help but make God subject to time.

Suppose I read the extensive autobiography of a person who lived a hundred years ago. He writes of his life in a chronological manner. At each moment of his life, the rest of the book was ‘future.’ In reading the book a hundred years later, I see his life as a single story, a continuity, a unity. I can even fill in some of the details of his life that occurred after the date of his writing. He saw the whole thing as a moment to moment process. I see it as a unity, standing outside of his personal timeline. God stands outside of everyone’s personal timeline.

It is rather like saying that because space stretches itself out three dimensionally across billions of miles, billions of light years, God can not see all of it at once; he can only see one point at a time. But that is not true. He can perceive the entire universe as a unity in a single instant. He in fact can perceive the entire universe and every individual within it as a single unity from his eternal perspective—seeing all points and all times simultaneously.

You are right that God did not create the universe at some particular instant of time. Before God created, there was no time, there was no space. In creating time and space, He did not become subject to it. Rather, he sees all times and all places simultaneously, from an eternal standpoint.

No, I don’t think God sees outcomes in the sense that He is present to them, but only in the sense that He sees what they will be.

And yet, whenever you eventually do in the future what you are going to do, God sees that, doesn’t he. And to him it is present, just as all times are present. He experiences all times as present. So whatever he sees you do, at no matter which part of your personal timeline, it is all present to him.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Let me amend that a little. My future at this moment does not yet exist to me because I am moving forward into the future on a moment by moment basis. But for one who lives in eternity—i.e., God—all futures exist as “now.”

It’s quite true that God does not exist “in” time. But time is not beyond his purview. If one takes the position that God can only know the temporal present for any given human being, one cannot help but make God subject to time.

Suppose I read the extensive autobiography of a person who lived a hundred years ago. He writes of his life in a chronological manner. At each moment of his life, the rest of the book was ‘future.’ In reading the book a hundred years later, I see his life as a single story, a continuity, a unity. I can even fill in some of the details of his life that occurred after the date of his writing. He saw the whole thing as a moment to moment process. I see it as a unity, standing outside of his personal timeline. God stands outside of everyone’s personal timeline.

It is rather like saying that because space stretches itself out three dimensionally across billions of miles, billions of light years, God can not see all of it at once; he can only see one point at a time. But that is not true. He can perceive the entire universe as a unity in a single instant. He in fact can perceive the entire universe and every individual within it as a single unity from his eternal perspective—seeing all points and all times simultaneously.

You are right that God did not create the universe at some particular instant of time. Before God created, there was no time, there was no space. In creating time and space, He did not become subject to it. Rather, he sees all times and all places simultaneously, from an eternal standpoint.

And yet, whenever you eventually do in the future what you are going to do, God sees that, doesn’t he. And to him it is present, just as all times are present. He experiences all times as present. So whatever he sees you do, at no matter which part of your personal timeline, it is all present to him.

I agree with everything you said about space, but I don’t think it’s the same with regard to time. God is omnipresent, and so, He is everywhere that exists simultaneously. But the analogy fails when one considers the future. The future does not exist. He cannot be present to what does not as yet exist. God cannot be present to what I have not yet done. He may know I’m going to do it, but he can’t be present to it, because I haven’t done it yet.

You mentioned that God created time. What is time, that it can be created? Is it not simply a concept, not a creation? It is not material, and it is not spiritual. Truth is it’s only the way we measure change. The earth completes a revolution and we say that a day has passed. The rotation of the earth gives us the unit of time called a day. So, I think it is more appropriate to say that time is the measure of change in created things, but is not itself a created thing.

 

[JimG]

Time is indeed a measure of change. It is a property of the material universe because matter changes. Matter—and energy—spreads itself out in space and time. That is the property of material beings: we have extension in space, and extension in time. Because God created matter, he also created space and time.

We say that God is omnipresent—that is, he is present in every place in he universe, which is spread out over billions of light years. And yet, God does NOT occupy space! He has no extension in space whatsoever. And yet he is omnipresent across those billions of light years. He is not spread out.

In the same way, God is not extended in time, and yet he is omnipresent in time—present in every temporal sequence. It may look to you as though the future does not exist, but the future is present to God, just as the past is present to God.

God does not experience time as a temporal sequence, nor does he experience space as a three-dimensional extension. It is all present to him as the eternal now.

I think you will find that this is in accord with Catholic philosophy and theology throughout the ages. If God experiences time only as a sequence, then he is in time, and not outside of it. But he IS outside of time, since he created it.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Time is indeed a measure of change. It is a property of the material universe because matter changes. Matter—and energy—spreads itself out in space and time. That is the property of material beings: we have extension in space, and extension in time. Because God created matter, he also created space and time.

We say that God is omnipresent—that is, he is present in every place in he universe, which is spread out over billions of light years. And yet, God does NOT occupy space! He has no extension in space whatsoever. And yet he is omnipresent across those billions of light years. He is not spread out.

In the same way, God is not extended in time, and yet he is omnipresent in time—present in every temporal sequence. It may look to you as though the future does not exist, but the future is present to God, just as the past is present to God.

God does not experience time as a temporal sequence, nor does he experience space as a three-dimensional extension. It is all present to him as the eternal now.

I think you will find that this is in accord with Catholic philosophy and theology throughout the ages. If God experiences time only as a sequence, then he is in time, and not outside of it. But he IS outside of time, since he created it.

Again, time is merely a measure, not a thing. Created things are not “in time.” they are described by time. Everything that is is in the present and only in the present. The brick and mortar First National Bank does not exist in the past, nor does it exist in the future-- it only exists now, in the present moment. True, it existed yesterday, but at that “time” it was considered “the present.” It existed yesterday when yesterday was present, but yesterday is no longer present and so it no longer exists yesterday. In fact, it is not entirely the same bank that existed yesterday that exists today. It has changed, It’s bricks are aging. The hinges on its doors are a bit more worn from opening and closing. It’s windows are dirtier. In essence it’s the same bank, but the peculiarity of the created universe is that nothing is the same from one moment to another. We attribute this difference to the passage of time, but it is really not time that causes it, but change. The universe is dynamic-- it is in a constant state of flux. What time is is really the constant change of matter in the present. All is in the present. Matter changes in the present moment. God does not change in the present moment. Both are always in the present. The past and the future are illusory. There is only the present. Neither God nor man is in the future. We both experience the future in the present. Of course God’s experience of the future is by observation, not by participation, since God is unchangeable and not subject to time. Our experience of time is altogether different-- it is by participation. This is how I understand God as being outside of time. It does not mean he is present to the future, for clearly and by definition, the future does not yet exist. It is not too much of a stretch to say that if God is present to what does not exist, then God Himself must not exist. Only a nonexistent God can be present to a nonexistent event, but our God is Reality Itself, and reality is about what is, with what is real and actual, with what actually does exist. None of this, however, means that God does not know the future, which I think is the real context of God knowing all things. Since the material world is subject to cause and effect, God of course can see into the future. This knowing is altogether different from being in the future. If two cars are speeding toward each other around a horseshoe bend around the side of a mountain, the observer from a helicopter can readily see that they are about to crash. However, neither drive can see this because of their inferior vantage points. There is no time to veer off the side of the mountain, but only the airborne observer can see that. This is how God sees the future. He sees, by cause and effect, everything that will occur in the material universe. This is how I understand Omniscience.

 

[JimG]

I am afraid that we are merely going in circles here. But let me give one more illustration. Look up at the night sky on a dark night in a rural area. You will see thousands of stars. You are seeing them right now, at the present moment.

But you are looking at the past.

The light from the nearest star takes four years to reach you. So you are looking at the star four years in the past, not at the present. All the stars and galaxies are at varying distances. Some are a hundred light years away, some are thousands or millions or billions of light years away. So when one looks at the night sky, one is looking not just into the past, but at varying distances into the past. And if one looks through a telescope at the most distant galaxies, one is looking 12 billion years or so into the past.

Does God see the same night sky? Does he see only the past, or a variety of pasts, as we do? Or does he see the stars as they are right now?

He can see it exactly as I see it on any given night. But he can also see the nearest star not as it existed four years ago, as I do, but as it exists right now, and as it exists 10 billion years from now, because all moments are present to him at once, just as all of space is present to him at once. He can see the night sky from all vantage points simultaneously.

We already know that God experiences all things as ‘now.’ Yesterday, today, and tomorrow he sees as ‘now.’ And if all is ‘now’ to him, he lives in the past, preent, and future, simultaneously because it’s all ‘now’. Since all times are ‘now’ to him, he does not live in a temporal continuum. Human beings experience only the present moment (in their timeline) as ‘now.’ We are unable to experience the past or the future as ‘now,’ but God can. Because he possesses the totality of his Being not as a temporal continuum but as a unitary totality.

If God knows ‘the future’ only by deduction, then He is limited, and if he is limited, he is not God.

If God know ‘the future’ only by deduction, then he must live in and be subject to time, and if he is subject to time, he is not God.

Sorry, that’s the best I can explain it.

 

[JamesCaruso]

I am afraid that we are merely going in circles here. But let me give one more illustration. Look up at the night sky on a dark night in a rural area. You will see thousands of stars. You are seeing them right now, at the present moment.

But you are looking at the past.

The light from the nearest star takes four years to reach you. So you are looking at the star four years in the past, not at the present. All the stars and galaxies are at varying distances. Some are a hundred light years away, some are thousands or millions or billions of light years away. So when one looks at the night sky, one is looking not just into the past, but at varying distances into the past. And if one looks through a telescope at the most distant galaxies, one is looking 12 billion years or so into the past.

Does God see the same night sky? Does he see only the past, or a variety of pasts, as we do? Or does he see the stars as they are right now?

He can see it exactly as I see it on any given night. But he can also see the nearest star not as it existed four years ago, as I do, but as it exists right now, and as it exists 10 billion years from now, because all moments are present to him at once, just as all of space is present to him at once. He can see the night sky from all vantage points simultaneously.

We already know that God experiences all things as ‘now.’ Yesterday, today, and tomorrow he sees as ‘now.’ And if all is ‘now’ to him, he lives in the past, preent, and future, simultaneously because it’s all ‘now’. Since all times are ‘now’ to him, he does not live in a temporal continuum. Human beings experience only the present moment (in their timeline) as ‘now.’ We are unable to experience the past or the future as ‘now,’ but God can. Because he possesses the totality of his Being not as a temporal continuum but as a unitary totality.

If God knows ‘the future’ only by deduction, then He is limited, and if he is limited, he is not God.

If God know ‘the future’ only by deduction, then he must live in and be subject to time, and if he is subject to time, he is not God.

Sorry, that’s the best I can explain it.

Thanks for not losing patience in this most difficult discussion.

What you describe is true. But in this case we are talking about the past, not the guture. The past did exist at one time, whereas the future has never existed. You don;t have to go to the stars that are light years away-- even when you look at the world around you, you are seeing what once war a nanosecond ago, since the light takes time to reach your eyes. This is not the same as being present to the past. What you see no longer exists due to the fact of constant change in the material world. There is no example in the physical world of seeing the future and that is consistent with logic, since the future has never existed. There is no way to see what does not exist.

God is not limited. As an example, besides not being able to be present to the future, God cannot hate, for his very nature is love. He cannot do evil, for he is all good, and he cannot lie, for he is the Truth. None of these things limit God, nor does his inability to be present to what does not exist.

Maybe we are going in circles, as we don’t seem to be making any progress. All I can say is that I used to think as you until I decided to figure it out for myself. Now I believe that the idea that God is present to the future is just well meaning misunderstanding. I am not trying to limit God in any way, just trying to understand reality. It’s understandable that we don’t want to diminish God in any way, but do not suppose that I do not still hold that God is the Incomprehensible One, the Almighty Who no mortal mind can begin to fathom. Peace.

 

[CrossBro]

This is one of the most puzzling questions you ask.

I am afraid we will have to wait to die to get the answer.

I always refer myself back to Psalm 145:3 which places the nature of God beyond our understanding.

Your dog does not understand you, does not understand you are leaving for work etc, infinitely more we cannot understand God fully either. If you asked your dog what God sounded like he would mimmick a can opener.

Interestingly, The chair of the philosophy dept when I went to college, who went to Notre Dame and was a former seminarian- I asked him the same question. His answer was that he did not believe God could see into the future because God chose not too.

 

[JimG]

Sorry, I don’t mean to unduly drag out a discussion that is going nowhere. My point about observing the night sky is not merely that we are looking at the past. It is that we are seeing a huge number of ‘pasts’ simultaneously. Those variety of pasts are simultaneous to us in our observation. For another observer in a different galaxy they are not simultaneous; a different set of pasts appear simultaneous to them.

There is no such thing as simultaneity for humans. Past, present, and future, depend on one’s observational standpoint. There is only simultaneity for God. For him all things are simultaneous.

It is not correct to think of God existing in eternity, then deciding to create, then creating a universe at a specific time and then sitting back to see what happens. That places God directly in the midst of time! He doesn’t take himself out of eternity and make himself extended in time by the act of creation! The instant of creation is the same instant to God as the universe at Tzero +16 billion years, and the same instant as the death of the universe.

Just because we have an extension in time and space, we tend to think of God in the same way. But he is not like us.

Interestingly, The chair of the philosophy dept when I went to college, who went to Notre Dame and was a former seminarian- I asked him the same question. His answer was that he did not believe God could see into the future because God chose not too.

The philosopher is wrong. God cannot chose to limit his omniscience, any more than he can chose to not know what is in the next room.

 

[Alindawyl]

There is no example in the physical world of seeing the future and that is consistent with logic, since the future has never existed. There is no way to see what does not exist.

This statement is true for the physical world and for us, who experience change. We can remember the changes we have directly experienced, or read about others experiencing, and refer to that as “the past”. We can ponder the possible changes yet to come and refer to that as “the future”. Both past and future do not exist per se. There is only the present.

There is also only the present for God. But look at what you just said in what I quoted. You said, “There is no example in the physical world of seeing the future…” God is not physical, but pure spirit. On top of that, we are finite beings while God is infinite. Space and time do not confine an infinite being, because both space and time are finite. Think about the implications of that. C.S. Lewis described it this way in Mere Christianity: “If you picture time as a straight line along which we have to travel, then you must picture God as the whole page on which the line is drawn.” At whatever point is the present for us, we can remember what came before and anticipate what comes later. But we always are and will always be a single point along that line, even though the location of that point changes forward at a steady rate as time progresses. Just as the page contains every single point of the line simultaneously, God likewise contains every single point of time simultaneously. To not contain all of time would limit the limitless God.

The reason we can say that God is unchanging is because there’s never a point in time where God doesn’t know something and then later knows it. If that was actually the case, then God would neither be omnipotent nor perfect. If God doesn’t know the future, he’s not perfect. He would lack something. But as God surrounds and permeates all of time just as the piece of paper surrounds and permeates all of the model of time we draw upon it, God’s eternal present contains all of our past, present, and future. And it’s still not filled because he’s infinite. No matter how far into the future the timeline goes, the same God that was there for our yesterday and is there for our today will be there for our tomorrow because he’s not limited by time. It’s all one great big present to him.

It’s a completely different way of seeing reality from us. Such is the nature of an infinite being.

Part of your confusion may stem from the fact that you seem to view free will as “random” will. It’s not random. The will is designed to seek out the good. A free will simply means that nothing forces us to decide that God (or anything else for that matter) is good. I submit for your consideration my drive to work every morning. When I get to the first major highway, I can turn left, turn right, go straight, turn around, sit there in traffic idle, get out of my car and dance around it singing Freezepop songs, ram into other cars, or whatever the heck I want. There’s nothing physically stopping me. But when I’m driving to work, I always turn right because that’s the best way to get to work and I view getting to work promptly as good. So I voluntarily choose to do what I perceive will bring about that good.

Far from being random, free will is actually pretty predictable. All you have to do is know what a person perceives as good. Whatever they perceive as the greatest good in any situation, that’s what they will do. Guaranteed. The same holds true for God. Whatever is the greatest possible good, that’s what God will always do. And he will do it freely.