I have a question....

[Truth_Seeker123]

Many people say that hell is an eternal place of fiery punishment. I believe (according to the scriptures) that hell is the grave. I have even provided many scriptures to back my stance. So here is my question.

Revelation 20:14 says And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How is Hell cast into the lake of fire, when it is suppose to be an eternal place of fiery punishment? If it is done away with then how is it eternal?

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

Also, Revelation 20:13 says And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

If a person dies and goes to Heaven or “hell” that means they have been judged and recieved their reward. Why is it that Revelation says that death and hell delivered up the dead so that every man shall be judged?

“If” hell is a place of eternal punishment, why is God judging them again?

 

[mariahloves]

I can tell you that Revelation is a very symbolic book of the Bible and it’s probably not the place to look for easy theology.

I can also say that hell is not a literal place of fire because 1. it also states in the Bible that it’s dark, how could it be dark if there were flames? and 2. you would end up burning to death which would not be eternal torment. I think it is rather a place seperated from God and His glory for all eternity. I’m sure someone else can offer a better reply though

 

[michaeldaniels]

Hell or Eternal Damnation is the “Total absence of God” which is supposed to be the most horrible experience one could imagine…there is nothing in this world that could compare…it is a place of total despair and zero hope

 

[TheosisM]

Many people say that hell is an eternal place of fiery punishment. I believe (according to the scriptures) that hell is the grave. I have even provided many scriptures to back my stance. So here is my question.

Revelation 20:14 says And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How is Hell cast into the lake of fire, when it is suppose to be an eternal place of fiery punishment? If it is done away with then how is it eternal?

Probably because the word translated as “hell” in the KJV of Rev 20:14, hades (which is how it is given in the NIV, ESV, NASB, NAB, ISV, ASV, ERV, and NKJV) is seen as distinct from Gehenna, and not referring to what is commonly called “Hell”.

 

[the_hazel_nut]

first of all, what about these verses:

Matt. 25:41
Matt. 25:46
Mark 9:47-48


anyway…

This is a point that I was making to my (protestant) friend who said the same thing, how it appears in those verses that hell is just death. I could write pages and pages about why people believe this, in fact I just did, but I erased it. I don’t think you want a long winded explanation on the history of why and how people came to believe this so I’ll keep it short.

Pretty much NO Christians believe that hell is “just the grave” until about a century ago, maybe a little more. What makes you think these relatively new interpretations are more correct than what the early Christians believed, or what people believed for many many centuries??

Come to think of it, what makes you think you are a better interpreter of scripture than a Jehovah’s witness who thinks there is no trinity? Of course Jesus is part of the trinity, but what gives me or you the right to say our own personal interpretation is right and theirs is wrong?

I’m not saying that you are not smart, I’m sure you are smart and a great interpreter of the bible. I’m just wondering what you think is the standard for determining the correctness of interpretation of scripture…

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Many people say that hell is an eternal place of fiery punishment. I believe (according to the scriptures) that hell is the grave. I have even provided many scriptures to back my stance. So here is my question.

Revelation 20:14 says And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How is Hell cast into the lake of fire, when it is suppose to be an eternal place of fiery punishment? If it is done away with then how is it eternal?

I get tired of repeating the same story, but my father appeared to me in my room the night he died. He died in a suburb called Nundah, and I was living in Yeronga.

He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, but at the end of the exchange he gave this horrifying scream directed at something that was obviously coming for him, and which clearly terrified him to the core of his being. I saw him, and his scream, but not what was coming for him.

Then he promptly disappeared. I still remember the hideous scream, the way he was shaking from head to foot, and some of the things we said, despite the fact it took place 31 years ago.

Whether we like it or not, the grave is not Hell. That’s wishful thinking. The writer of Hebrews didn’t call God a consuming fire for nothing, and the devil is perfectly real.

I’m afraid a lot of smug atheists, and some disbelieving Christians, are in for a shock.

 

[Fidei]

i was also thinking the same… the witnesses however believes hell as Gehenna, a certain place in Israel where the the dead are buried, garbage disposed and criminals are burnt in a literal “sea of fire”.

but scripture plainly expresses hell as eternal torment [not eternal destruction]… and by that i stumped an elder…

what does bother me is that how could God be justice if we are to be punished/separated from God for all eternity when we only lived to sin for a lifetime? I think this is more of an emotional question that a theological one.

And when Christ said “narrow is the gate that leads to salvation while the wide gate leads to destruction” would it mean most percentage of humanity is destined for eternal punishment?

 

[crazzeto]

Many people say that hell is an eternal place of fiery punishment. I believe (according to the scriptures) that hell is the grave. I have even provided many scriptures to back my stance. So here is my question.

Revelation 20:14 says And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How is Hell cast into the lake of fire, when it is suppose to be an eternal place of fiery punishment? If it is done away with then how is it eternal?

Hell, or Hades and Death are thrown into the fire because there is no longer any need for them. All souls either exist experiencing the beatific vision, or in firy damnation.

 

[crazzeto]

i was also thinking the same… the witnesses however believes hell as Gehenna, a certain place in Israel where the the dead are buried, garbage disposed and criminals are burnt in a literal “sea of fire”.

but scripture plainly expresses hell as eternal torment [not eternal destruction]… and by that i stumped an elder…

what does bother me is that how could God be justice if we are to be punished/separated from God for all eternity when we only lived to sin for a lifetime? I think this is more of an emotional question that a theological one.

And when Christ said “narrow is the gate that leads to salvation while the wide gate leads to destruction” would it mean most percentage of humanity is destined for eternal punishment?

God knows our hearts, and knows that there comes a point where if you haven’t accepted him by that time (death), then you never will.

 

[Vile_Servant]

I can tell you that Revelation is a very symbolic book of the Bible and it’s probably not the place to look for easy theology.

I can also say that hell is not a literal place of fire because 1. it also states in the Bible that it’s dark, how could it be dark if there were flames? and 2. you would end up burning to death which would not be eternal torment. I think it is rather a place seperated from God and His glory for all eternity. I’m sure someone else can offer a better reply though

Hellfire is dark because God separated the light from the heat of the fire so that only the heat of the flames remain in hell.

The soul is immortal so it will never burn to death or be destroyed by hellfire, for all eternity.

Not withstanding the dreadful torments of hellfire, the eternal separation from God will be the greatest torment to the damned.

Very sobering thoughts indeed.

 

[Vile_Servant]

Whether we like it or not, the grave is not Hell. That’s wishful thinking. The writer of Hebrews didn’t call God a consuming fire for nothing, and the devil is perfectly real.

I’m afraid a lot of smug atheists, and some disbelieving Christians, are in for a shock.

You are absolutely right.

 

[Vile_Servant]

what does bother me is that how could God be justice if we are to be punished/separated from God for all eternity when we only lived to sin for a lifetime? I think this is more of an emotional question that a theological one.

a mortal sin offends against the infinite majesty and goodness of God, therefore it deserves an infinite punishment. God in His mercy has not decreed that the punishment be infinite in intensity, only in its duration.

furthermore, a sinner who dies unrepentant of mortal sin will forever be fixed in that state of sinfulness, as the time for repentance only occurs during this life and not in the next.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

what does bother me is that how could God be justice if we are to be punished/separated from God for all eternity when we only lived to sin for a lifetime? I think this is more of an emotional question that a theological one.

And when Christ said “narrow is the gate that leads to salvation while the wide gate leads to destruction” would it mean most percentage of humanity is destined for eternal punishment?

I sometimes wonder about the eternal punishment for sins that took place in time, and which usually had a limited import. The other aspect is the relevant seriousness of sins.

I believe my father is in hell, as stated, and I think I witnessed his terror as it, or the devil or demons approached, or both. But even though in his own words, “I’ve been an absolute mongrel to you” means I find it hard not to be vindictive, the reality is that the evil he did wasn’t a patch on the sorts of things Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc. did. Yet he shares the same fate in the sense of ending up in hell, and finally, in the Lake of Fire.

I wonder about that as well.

The reality is that I don’t know the answer.

Another point is that according to the records of Fatima, Mary on the 19th August 1917, stated that … “many souls go to hell because there is nobody to sacrifice and pray for them.”

So it looks as though some of the responsibility for rescuing souls from hell might be ours, in the form of prayer and personal redemptive sacrifice or suffering. Christ said we must pick up our cross and follow him, and Paul wrote that he filled up the sufferings of Christ in his own body. Neither of these things make much sense, unless they form a part of redemptive suffering in themselves.

But in our comfortable Western society, I don’t think we like either of these ideas very much. I know I don’t. I complain loud and clear when I think I’m been mistreated by others in particular.

 

[romesweethome]

Many people say that hell is an eternal place of fiery punishment. I believe (according to the scriptures) that hell is the grave. I have even provided many scriptures to back my stance. So here is my question.

Revelation 20:14 says And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How is Hell cast into the lake of fire, when it is suppose to be an eternal place of fiery punishment? If it is done away with then how is it eternal?

Death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Hades is not the hell of the damned, but the place where noah went with his family after they died. Jesus went there in 1 peter 3:19 and following verses. This place was also known as sheol.

Therefore your idea of “hell” is not confirmed in these verses because they are not referring to the hell of the damned. Those who desire not to be with God in this world are given exactly what they ask for after this life, eternal absence from the presence of God, which is also known as hell. John 15 covers this also, when it refers to those who do not remain in Christ(the true vine) and are cut off, withered and burned.

hope this helps, peace rsh

 

[Dokimas]

Many people say that hell is an eternal place of fiery punishment. I believe (according to the scriptures) that hell is the grave. I have even provided many scriptures to back my stance. So here is my question.

Revelation 20:14 says And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How is Hell cast into the lake of fire, when it is suppose to be an eternal place of fiery punishment? If it is done away with then how is it eternal?

Mt 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Re 14:10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Re 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Mark 9:
42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched–
44 "where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’
45 "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched–
46 "where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’
47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire–
48 "where ‘Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.’​

Whatever hell is, it’s to be avoided at all costs; Jesus wants to save us from ourselves for without Him that is our destiny.​

Let’s look at the the rest of the verse you quoted and see the sins mentioned the if not deliverance from will take us to hell:

Re 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[Truth_Seeker123]

first of all, what about these verses:

Matt. 25:41
Matt. 25:46
Mark 9:47-48


anyway…

This is a point that I was making to my (protestant) friend who said the same thing, how it appears in those verses that hell is just death. I could write pages and pages about why people believe this, in fact I just did, but I erased it. I don’t think you want a long winded explanation on the history of why and how people came to believe this so I’ll keep it short.

Pretty much NO Christians believe that hell is “just the grave” until about a century ago, maybe a little more. What makes you think these relatively new interpretations are more correct than what the early Christians believed, or what people believed for many many centuries??

Come to think of it, what makes you think you are a better interpreter of scripture than a Jehovah’s witness who thinks there is no trinity? Of course Jesus is part of the trinity, but what gives me or you the right to say our own personal interpretation is right and theirs is wrong?

I’m not saying that you are not smart, I’m sure you are smart and a great interpreter of the bible. I’m just wondering what you think is the standard for determining the correctness of interpretation of scripture…

The Bible DOES NOT speak of the wicked receiving eternal life, only the righteous. By saying the wicked will burn eternally, is giving them eternal life. Only God has immortality and can give it and only the righteous will receive it. And before anyone tries to use the excuse of the soul leaving the body. Look up what a soul is first.

With your logic (if you believe in eternal hell fire) and many others who think this way, the Bible contradicts itself. It’s funny, because my verses are plain and clear, where as you and many others choose verses that can be twisted. The lake of fire is the second death. Here are more…

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Ezekiel 28:18,19 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Lamentations 4:6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.

Jeremiah 50:40 As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD; so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein.

Sodom and Gomorrah was burned with that “eternal” fire, yet this verse says they were turned into ashes.

Basically, eternal and everlasting are results. The hell spoken of will burn until everything has perished. Why do you think that John 3:16 says that those who do not believe on Christ will perish or what about Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Bible is very clear on this matter, but we must come out of our ways to so this. If one sins and does not repent, his/here punishment is death, not eternal life in hell.

And I can keep going with the verses. All of them are clear.

 

[the_hazel_nut]

Along with the other verses I showed you, there is Revelation 14:10-11.

I’m not trying to twist verses, I’m showing you verses that describe *eternal * torment. I don’t know how those can be interpreted another way.

anyway

Jude 1:7 and Jeremiah 50:40, 2 Peter 2:6, Lamentations 4:6

These verses sound clear to me. The first one they are suffering in eternal fire and the rest of the verses describe the fact that the cities are destroyed. Unless you think the wicked are already destroyed, becuase these verses describe something already destroyed.

Ecclesiastes 3:20

This says ALL will return to dust. So are you using this verse to support that no one gets eternal life? Of course this is not true. Do you know about the Jewish afterlife? Sheol is where all of the dead go, in the earth.

Acts 2:31

The verse before this says that David , who was a prophet, died and his body decayed. This verse says that Jesus bodily rose form the dead. What does this have to do with hell?

Revelation 20:13

This verse says that there are people in hell and they are judged on judgment day… right? I don’t see it saying anything about souls being destroyed?

Jonah 2:2

Again… I don’t see what this has to do with souls being destroyed…

I think maybe I’m confused about what your views of hell are. Do you believe that their souls are destroyed after judgment day?

And if I got really confused about the meaning of those verses, my apologies, please explain / correct me.

 

[Zooey]

Hell or Eternal Damnation is the “Total absence of God” which is supposed to be the most horrible experience one could imagine…there is nothing in this world that could compare…it is a place of total despair and zero hope

:sad_yes:

God knows our hearts, and knows that there comes a point where if you haven’t accepted him by that time (death), then you never will.

:crying::sad_yes:
:byzsoc: :byzsoc::byzsoc:

 

[Mr_Skeptic]

Any entity who would sentence people to eternal suffering, as opposed to just making them cease to exist, is a cruel and diabolical character.