I have decided not to become Catholic

[whatsmyname]

Are there any politically or economically conservative Catholics here? Do you just ignore what the Catholic Church teaches? How do you reconcile your divergent beliefs?

I walked out of the middle of my RCIA class today and have decided not to become a Catholic. Today’s class topic was Social Justice. I had read the CCC and studied up some on Catholic teaching on social justice since I knew I might have some difficulty with Catholic beliefs on this topic. Today’s teaching at church made me realize I can never profess to believe what Catholic teaching on Social Justice requires.

I believe the climate is changing and has always been changing, but I do not necessarily believe in manmade global warming.

I believe we should be charitable and care for the poor, but I do not believe that more powerful centralized government, fair trade schemes, boycotts of companies that have fallen out of favor, higher taxes, fewer free market principles, etc is always the best way to do this. I do believe it is more charitable to provide training and a job for someone than to provide them with a one-time handout. I don’t believe there is some amount of wage that is “fair” nor have I ever met the individual qualified to set that number. I do believe people should be paid for their work and treated with dignity and respect. I think they should be paid more for more skilled or better or more profitable work. I would rather work to raise everyone up to a higher standard than equalize us by bringing everyone else down to the lowest standard.

I choose to buy products with minimal packaging and recycle when possible, but I do not believe my salvation depends on it.

I believe I should pay my water bill before I buy a new television or iPhone and if I can’t pay my water bill, I shouldn’t buy a new television or iPhone. If I can’t pay my water bill, I believe I should take quick showers and stop watering my lawn, or move to a more affordable area. I believe in personal property rights and the rule of law. I believe in the right of countries to enforce their laws and their borders.

I believe some of us have been given greater natural gifts than others, but I believe we all have a responsibility to do the best we can with what we have been given. And those of us with more have a responsibility to help those who have been given fewer natural gifts, but those with less are not exempt from any responsibility.

I have always believed the death penalty is licit in certain rare circumstances. On reading more about it, I am willing to accept that most countries these days do have the ability to imprison their most dangerous criminals indefinitely and do not need to resort to killing them.

After today’s class, I now know all of my beliefs are in conflict with Catholic Social Justice teaching. I now know that Catholic teaching is wrong, and I’m heartbroken.

 

[Corki]

There is nothing you have posted here that is in conflict with Catholic teaching. If your RCIA instructor told you it was, he/she did you and the Church a grave disservice.

The thing about Church teaching, and especially Social Justice teaching IMHO, is that the documents are written for the whole Church, not just to the Church in the US. So when you read about the duty to pay a fair wage, that doesn’t necessarily mean raising the minimum was to $15 and hour. It can also mean ending child labor and slavery which are huge issues in many countries.

Every Catholic should believe in caring for the poor but there is a huge spectrum of opinions on** how** that it best accomplished. Opinions on both ends of that spectrum, as well as in the middle, can all be authentic Catholic positions.

We are called to be good stewards of natural resources but there is no mandate on recycling or global warming.

etc.

 

[dmelosi]

What was today’s church teaching on social justice that you disagreed with? It could be that the teacher at RCIA was wrong.

Are there any politically or economically conservative Catholics here? Do you just ignore what the Catholic Church teaches? How do you reconcile your divergent beliefs?

I walked out of the middle of my RCIA class today and have decided not to become a Catholic. Today’s class topic was Social Justice. I had read the CCC and studied up some on Catholic teaching on social justice since I knew I might have some difficulty with Catholic beliefs on this topic. Today’s teaching at church made me realize I can never profess to believe what Catholic teaching on Social Justice requires.

I believe the climate is changing and has always been changing, but I do not necessarily believe in manmade global warming.

I believe we should be charitable and care for the poor, but I do not believe that more powerful centralized government, fair trade schemes, boycotts of companies that have fallen out of favor, higher taxes, fewer free market principles, etc is always the best way to do this. I do believe it is more charitable to provide training and a job for someone than to provide them with a one-time handout. I don’t believe there is some amount of wage that is “fair” nor have I ever met the individual qualified to set that number. I do believe people should be paid for their work and treated with dignity and respect. I think they should be paid more for more skilled or better or more profitable work. I would rather work to raise everyone up to a higher standard than equalize us by bringing everyone else down to the lowest standard.

I choose to buy products with minimal packaging and recycle when possible, but I do not believe my salvation depends on it.

I believe I should pay my water bill before I buy a new television or iPhone and if I can’t pay my water bill, I shouldn’t buy a new television or iPhone. If I can’t pay my water bill, I believe I should take quick showers and stop watering my lawn, or move to a more affordable area. I believe in personal property rights and the rule of law. I believe in the right of countries to enforce their laws and their borders.

I believe some of us have been given greater natural gifts than others, but I believe we all have a responsibility to do the best we can with what we have been given. And those of us with more have a responsibility to help those who have been given fewer natural gifts, but those with less are not exempt from any responsibility.

I have always believed the death penalty is licit in certain rare circumstances. On reading more about it, I am willing to accept that most countries these days do have the ability to imprison their most dangerous criminals indefinitely and do not need to resort to killing them.

After today’s class, I now know all of my beliefs are in conflict with Catholic Social Justice teaching. I now know that Catholic teaching is wrong, and I’m heartbroken.

 

[whatsmyname]

Everything I have stated that I believe IS contrary to Catholic teaching, per the RCIA leader. What I am taught in RCIA is what the church is teaching me, isn’t it? That is church teaching because I am being taught it by a duly designated leader of the church at a required church function and I am not allowed to join the church until I sit there and listen to it and learn it. It isn’t being taught as a belief that is optional or open to interpretation or nuanced, but as fact.

The church says you must recycle. The church says the death penalty is absolutely forbidden. The church says you must buy fair trade goods and here’s the name of a store where you can do so. The church says you must bring your own grocery bags to the store. The church says you must boycott (name of company) because they don’t believe as we do.

What do your churches teach about Social Justice? Do they leave it up to the individual’s interpretation? Do they think it is a complex and nuanced subject, and tell you that Catholic belief on the specifics of it are varied? My church apparently doesn’t think that. They think it is black and white with no room for differing opinions. What am I supposed to do when they hold access to the sacraments hostage to belief in that?

 

[dmelosi]

Everything I have stated that I believe IS contrary to Catholic teaching, per the RCIA leader. What I am taught in RCIA is what the church is teaching me, isn’t it? That is church teaching because I am being taught it by a duly designated leader of the church at a required church function and I am not allowed to join the church until I sit there and listen to it and learn it. It isn’t being taught as a belief that is optional or open to interpretation or nuanced, but as fact.

The church says you must recycle. The church says the death penalty is absolutely forbidden. The church says you must buy fair trade goods and here’s the name of a store where you can do so. The church says you must bring your own grocery bags to the store. The church says you must boycott (name of company) because they don’t believe as we do.

What do your churches teach about Social Justice? Do they leave it up to the individual’s interpretation? Do they think it is a complex and nuanced subject, and tell you that Catholic belief on the specifics of it are varied? My church apparently doesn’t think that. They think it is black and white with no room for differing opinions. What am I supposed to do when they hold access to the sacraments hostage to belief in that?

If that is what the RCIA teacher told you, he/she is not teaching the church teaching but their own beliefs.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Everything I have stated that I believe IS contrary to Catholic teaching, per the RCIA leader. What I am taught in RCIA is what the church is teaching me, isn’t it? That is church teaching because I am being taught it by a duly designated leader of the church at a required church function and I am not allowed to join the church until I sit there and listen to it and learn it. It isn’t being taught as a belief that is optional or open to interpretation or nuanced, but as fact.

The church says you must recycle. The church says the death penalty is absolutely forbidden. The church says you must buy fair trade goods and here’s the name of a store where you can do so. The church says you must bring your own grocery bags to the store. The church says you must boycott (name of company) because they don’t believe as we do.

What do your churches teach about Social Justice? Do they leave it up to the individual’s interpretation? Do they think it is a complex and nuanced subject, and tell you that Catholic belief on the specifics of it are varied? My church apparently doesn’t think that. They think it is black and white with no room for differing opinions. What am I supposed to do when they hold access to the sacraments hostage to belief in that?

I suggest go to another Catholic Church but don’t give up. You can be a global warming skeptic and economically conservative and be a Catholic in good standing. There are plenty of them.

 

[Corki]

Everything I have stated that I believe IS contrary to Catholic teaching, per the RCIA leader. What I am taught in RCIA is what the church is teaching me, isn’t it? That is church teaching because I am being taught it by a duly designated leader of the church at a required church function and I am not allowed to join the church until I sit there and listen to it and learn it. It isn’t being taught as a belief that is optional or open to interpretation or nuanced, but as fact.

The church says you must recycle. The church says the death penalty is absolutely forbidden. The church says you must buy fair trade goods and here’s the name of a store where you can do so. The church says you must bring your own grocery bags to the store. The church says you must boycott (name of company) because they don’t believe as we do.

What do your churches teach about Social Justice? Do they leave it up to the individual’s interpretation? Do they think it is a complex and nuanced subject, and tell you that Catholic belief on the specifics of it are varied? My church apparently doesn’t think that. They think it is black and white with no room for differing opinions. What am I supposed to do when they hold access to the sacraments hostage to belief in that?

All RCIA leaders are not created equally. Some are well educated in their faith and want to convey authentic Church teaching to people who potentially will join the Church. Some are well meaning but operate on their own feelings and opinions rather than the actual teachings of the Church. It seems your parish has the latter. This is very sad and I am very sorry that this is the face of the Church which you have encountered.

Social Justice is a very complex issue and most of Catholic teaching is designed to help a person wade through the complexity and formulate a personal response. There are, of course, some absolutes. As I mentioned before, stewardship of the earth is one. But there is no mandate to recycle or to bring your own grocery bags to the store (unless legally required). On the other hand, if you dump toxic waste into the nearby river, you would be acting in a manner contrary to Church teaching.

The church says you must recycle. The church says the death penalty is absolutely forbidden. The church says you must buy fair trade goods and here’s the name of a store where you can do so. The church says you must bring your own grocery bags to the store. The church says you must boycott (name of company) because they don’t believe as we do.

Actually, no, the Church does not say any of these things. Not that they are bad things to do. But they are not requirements at all.

 

[Tomdstone]

Everything I have stated that I believe IS contrary to Catholic teaching, per the RCIA leader. What I am taught in RCIA is what the church is teaching me, isn’t it? That is church teaching because I am being taught it by a duly designated leader of the church at a required church function and** I am not allowed to join the church until I sit there and listen to it and learn it**.

You have p(name removed by moderator)ointed a problem with RCIA and with the requirement that prospective Catholics attend RCIA.

 

[RyanBlack]

Are there any politically or economically conservative Catholics here? Do you just ignore what the Catholic Church teaches? How do you reconcile your divergent beliefs?

I walked out of the middle of my RCIA class today and have decided not to become a Catholic. Today’s class topic was Social Justice. I had read the CCC and studied up some on Catholic teaching on social justice since I knew I might have some difficulty with Catholic beliefs on this topic. Today’s teaching at church made me realize I can never profess to believe what Catholic teaching on Social Justice requires.

I believe the climate is changing and has always been changing, but I do not necessarily believe in manmade global warming.

I believe we should be charitable and care for the poor, but I do not believe that more powerful centralized government, fair trade schemes, boycotts of companies that have fallen out of favor, higher taxes, fewer free market principles, etc is always the best way to do this. I do believe it is more charitable to provide training and a job for someone than to provide them with a one-time handout. I don’t believe there is some amount of wage that is “fair” nor have I ever met the individual qualified to set that number. I do believe people should be paid for their work and treated with dignity and respect. I think they should be paid more for more skilled or better or more profitable work. I would rather work to raise everyone up to a higher standard than equalize us by bringing everyone else down to the lowest standard.

I choose to buy products with minimal packaging and recycle when possible, but I do not believe my salvation depends on it.

I believe I should pay my water bill before I buy a new television or iPhone and if I can’t pay my water bill, I shouldn’t buy a new television or iPhone. If I can’t pay my water bill, I believe I should take quick showers and stop watering my lawn, or move to a more affordable area. I believe in personal property rights and the rule of law. I believe in the right of countries to enforce their laws and their borders.

I believe some of us have been given greater natural gifts than others, but I believe we all have a responsibility to do the best we can with what we have been given. And those of us with more have a responsibility to help those who have been given fewer natural gifts, but those with less are not exempt from any responsibility.

I have always believed the death penalty is licit in certain rare circumstances. On reading more about it, I am willing to accept that most countries these days do have the ability to imprison their most dangerous criminals indefinitely and do not need to resort to killing them.

After today’s class, I now know all of my beliefs are in conflict with Catholic Social Justice teaching. I now know that Catholic teaching is wrong, and I’m heartbroken.

I, in terms of my own politics, disagree with a good bit of your approach to questions of social justice, as I tend to be rather liberal on economic questions. However, I’m fairly knowledgeable concerning Catholic teachings on social justice, and I see nothing in what you’ve stated that conflicts with Catholic social teaching–not even where I personally disagree. Some things are a matter of prudential judgment. For example, the Church teaches that we should care for the poor. The Church does not require one particular way in which that can be done. You and I can have very different beliefs as to the best role for the government to play in helping the poor without either of us denying Catholic teachings on social justice.

 

[whatsmyname]

For example, the Church teaches that we should care for the poor. The Church does not require one particular way in which that can be done. You and I can have very different beliefs as to the best role for the government to play in helping the poor without either of us denying Catholic teachings on social justice.

That was my understanding when I studied it for myself.

So when I’m interpret things one way and my church leaders teach me another, how do I distinguish who is right? Should I look at everything I’m taught at church with suspicion? Do I have to then take everything I learn at church to outside sources and gather opinions on what’s right or wrong? How do I know that anybody else’s opinion is more valid than mine or more valid than the RCIA leader’s? What’s my answer here?

 

[JRKH]

Everything I have stated that I believe IS contrary to Catholic teaching, per the RCIA leader. What I am taught in RCIA is what the church is teaching me, isn’t it? That is church teaching because I am being taught it by a duly designated leader of the church at a required church function and I am not allowed to join the church until I sit there and listen to it and learn it. It isn’t being taught as a belief that is optional or open to interpretation or nuanced, but as fact.

The church says you must recycle. The church says the death penalty is absolutely forbidden. The church says you must buy fair trade goods and here’s the name of a store where you can do so. The church says you must bring your own grocery bags to the store. The church says you must boycott (name of company) because they don’t believe as we do.

I think I would have walked out too. As another has said, this person is teaching their own opinion and not Church teaching.

What do your churches teach about Social Justice? Do they leave it up to the individual’s interpretation? Do they think it is a complex and nuanced subject, and tell you that Catholic belief on the specifics of it are varied? My church apparently doesn’t think that. They think it is black and white with no room for differing opinions.

Yes - the Church does hold that this is a complex and nuanced subject. She places before us certain goals and principles - all based on the law of Love - but being a universal Church she recognizes that there are many ways that we can go about working for social justice.

What am I supposed to do when they hold access to the sacraments hostage to belief in that?

Well not being in your shoes I can’t say for sure but Consider this…
When you enter the Church you are confirming your belief in bona-fide Church teaching not the opinions that you have received from any individual.
So the Sacraments are not being held hostage to this person’s opinions. Rather, perhaps, God is testing your resolve by throwing this obstacle in your way…or maybe it is the evil one who has done this…
If it were me, I would bite my lip ride through these classes and when the time comes for baptism/confirmation, take comfort in the fact that I am attesting to TRUE Church teaching and perhaps, just perhaps, I would find myself interested in teaching RCIA so I could correct some of this garbage…

Peace
James

 

[Michael97]

It isn’t unlikely for many liberals in the Church (clergy too) to present their stance on economic matters as Catholic dogma. The only real way to distinguish dogma and opinion would be to read the Social Encyclicals yourself: the first of which is Rerum Novarum.

The Catechism is another useful tool for this as well.

 

[RyanBlack]

That was my understanding when I studied it for myself.

So when I’m interpret things one way and my church leaders teach me another, how do I distinguish who is right? Should I look at everything I’m taught at church with suspicion? Do I have to then take everything I learn at church to outside sources and gather opinions on what’s right or wrong? How do I know that anybody else’s opinion is more valid than mine or more valid than the RCIA leader’s? What’s my answer here?

There’s a possibility that the RCIA leader is not very well educated in Church social justice teaching, or there’s a possibility that the leader is pushing his/her own personal political agenda, or some of both. My suggestion is that you familiarize yourself with both the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church.

 

[boldlygo]

Everything I have stated that I believe IS contrary to Catholic teaching, per the RCIA leader. What I am taught in RCIA is what the church is teaching me, isn’t it? That is church teaching because I am being taught it by a duly designated leader of the church at a required church function and I am not allowed to join the church until I sit there and listen to it and learn it. It isn’t being taught as a belief that is optional or open to interpretation or nuanced, but as fact.

The church says you must recycle. The church says the death penalty is absolutely forbidden. The church says you must buy fair trade goods and here’s the name of a store where you can do so. The church says you must bring your own grocery bags to the store. The church says you must boycott (name of company) because they don’t believe as we do.

What do your churches teach about Social Justice? Do they leave it up to the individual’s interpretation? Do they think it is a complex and nuanced subject, and tell you that Catholic belief on the specifics of it are varied? My church apparently doesn’t think that. They think it is black and white with no room for differing opinions. What am I supposed to do when they hold access to the sacraments hostage to belief in that?

I’m sorry you had such an unusual experience in RCIA. My wife and I started working in our parish RCIA process in 1995, after having been involved in religious education for many years, and completing coursework at a local Catholic university. This is my 20th year working in the RCIA process, and I’ve never encountered anything like this before.

You mentioned the RCIA ‘leader’…who is this person?..on whose authority does this person act?..is the pastor aware of what is going on?

You believed that you were called to the Catholic Church, and you believed correctly. Don’t allow this misinformation to turn you away from this calling. Make an appointment with the pastor, and sit down with him and tell him your concerns.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Are there any politically or economically conservative Catholics here? Do you just ignore what the Catholic Church teaches? How do you reconcile your divergent beliefs?

I walked out of the middle of my RCIA class today and have decided not to become a Catholic. Today’s class topic was Social Justice. I had read the CCC and studied up some on Catholic teaching on social justice since I knew I might have some difficulty with Catholic beliefs on this topic. Today’s teaching at church made me realize I can never profess to believe what Catholic teaching on Social Justice requires.

I believe the climate is changing and has always been changing, but I do not necessarily believe in manmade global warming.

I believe we should be charitable and care for the poor, but I do not believe that more powerful centralized government, fair trade schemes, boycotts of companies that have fallen out of favor, higher taxes, fewer free market principles, etc is always the best way to do this. I do believe it is more charitable to provide training and a job for someone than to provide them with a one-time handout. I don’t believe there is some amount of wage that is “fair” nor have I ever met the individual qualified to set that number. I do believe people should be paid for their work and treated with dignity and respect. I think they should be paid more for more skilled or better or more profitable work. I would rather work to raise everyone up to a higher standard than equalize us by bringing everyone else down to the lowest standard.

I choose to buy products with minimal packaging and recycle when possible, but I do not believe my salvation depends on it.

I believe I should pay my water bill before I buy a new television or iPhone and if I can’t pay my water bill, I shouldn’t buy a new television or iPhone. If I can’t pay my water bill, I believe I should take quick showers and stop watering my lawn, or move to a more affordable area. I believe in personal property rights and the rule of law. I believe in the right of countries to enforce their laws and their borders.

I believe some of us have been given greater natural gifts than others, but I believe we all have a responsibility to do the best we can with what we have been given. And those of us with more have a responsibility to help those who have been given fewer natural gifts, but those with less are not exempt from any responsibility.

I have always believed the death penalty is licit in certain rare circumstances. On reading more about it, I am willing to accept that most countries these days do have the ability to imprison their most dangerous criminals indefinitely and do not need to resort to killing them.

After today’s class, I now know all of my beliefs are in conflict with Catholic Social Justice teaching. I now know that Catholic teaching is wrong, and I’m heartbroken.

It appears that you have encountered a social justice warrior who has conscripted the RCIA program to be a platform for their liberal progressivism or libertarian socialism and teaches THAT as if THAT is what Catholicism essentially is.

The underlying principles of Catholicism and Church teaching are quite in line with every one of those items you listed as what you have “always believed.” In fact, your perspective is very much the “Catholic” one as defended by many, if not most Catholics, on these forums. I wouldn’t draw such a hasty conclusion about knowing what Catholic teaching is from one RCIA instructor.

The Church has a difficulty in modern times with dissenting Catholics infiltrating it and teaching their views as the decidedly “Catholic” ones.

This problem has been part of the Church since the beginning. Read on Arianism and you’ll discover that a similar problem became so bad at the time that even many of the Bishops in the Church had embraced the heresy before it was properly dealt with.

Jesus’ Parable of the Weeds in the Wheat anticipated this as a cautionary notice to us.

The Parable of Weeds among the Wheat
Another parable he put before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the householder came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ But he said, ‘No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”
(Matt 13:24-30)

 

[Mark121359]

Everything I have stated that I believe IS contrary to Catholic teaching, per the RCIA leader. ***What I am taught in RCIA is what the church is teaching me, isn’t it? ***That is church teaching because I am being taught it by a duly designated leader of the church at a required church function and I am not allowed to join the church until I sit there and listen to it and learn it. It isn’t being taught as a belief that is optional or open to interpretation or nuanced, but as fact.

The answer is not always…not nowadays! When my niece was in high school, they were teaching her class (and promoting I might add) about “Sophia,” the female goddess of choice of many feminist theologians. And this was a Catholic school too, so just be careful. It’s sad, but you have liberals promoting their agenda in higher positions than just RCIA leaders in the Church today, trust me. Please don’t let this person be the final arbiter that sways you away from the Catholic Church!

Peace, Mark

 

[dee_burk]

I pray you do not let this person interfere with your intentions to become Catholic. I agree with most the other responses that this RCIA director has overstepped their bounds of social teaching of the Church with their personal beliefs on the matter. I suggest you make an appointment with your priest to discuss your feelings on today’s subject matter. It may very well be he has no idea what is being brought up and may need to speak with the RCIA director.

Our priest is very involved in the RCIA classes at our parish. He regularly came into our class last year and from what i understand is still making regular appearances this year as well. Not because our RCIA director (and deacon) is under suspicion but because he is very active and involved with everyone and all the groups in our parish. Personally, i think he enjoys the teaching aspect.

 

[johnnyt3000]

Talk to a priest and attend a different RCIA class. Remember the Catholic Church is the Universal Church instituted by Christ Himself. Do not let the devil in any way shape or form convince you turn away from growing closer to God by presenting false ideas such as global warming. I agree with you global warming is a hoax. The devil has been trying harder than ever to destroy Christ’s Church the past few centuries. What you should do is listen to what the people on here have told you, and see a traditional priest. Look up and see if there are any FSSP parishes in your area, they celebrate the Traditional Latin mass (extraordinary form) and are in full communion with the Holy See. God bless. Pray to Our Lady to help guide you.

 

[johnnyt3000]

Pope St. Pius V, Pope Leo XIII, Pope St. Pius X, Pope Pius XII would all probably agree with you on everything you said, except for the part where you left RCIA and decided not to become Catholic. Nothing which you stated you believe in about economics and goverment contradicts Church teaching. As Catholics we know socialism/communism is evil and many Popes in the past have condemned communism. You gotta see a traditional priest, he’ll help you out. What you stated, the things pertaining to the economy and the government, is what I believe too!

Read this article tfpstudentaction.org/politically-incorrect/socialism/what-the-popes-really-say-about-socialism.html

Pope Leo XIII -

The right to possess private property is derived from nature, not from man; and the State has the right to control its use in the interests of the public good alone, but by no means to absorb it altogether. The State would therefore be unjust and cruel if under the name of taxation it were to deprive the private owner of more than is fair.

 

[johnnyt3000]

What your RCIA teacher told you about recycling and the death penalty is not true. You are not required to recycle and the traditional teaching of the Church holds and always will hold that the death penalty can be necessary in certain circumstances. The super liberals are the enemies of the Church and agents of satan. We must pray for them.