I have decided not to become Catholic

[zetarho62]

I am a Catholic who is attending RCIA just to learn about my faith more. With the exception of the death penalty thing, which I’m still struggling with, I found nothing wrong with your beliefs (look at 2Thes 3:6-13). Your RCIA instructor may be misguided or misinterpreting the social teachings. Before you walk away from Christ’s glorious church, you owe it to yourself to find out more.

Get with your instructor first and confirm what he/she told you and ask for specifics regarding what they said. RCIA, if done correctly, welcomes questions about the church’s teachings and are not considered a threat to authority. If you are still not satisfied, get with a Deacon and then maybe a Priest.

There is too much riding on what may turn out to be a misunderstanding or misconception.

I will surely pray for you to not walk away.

 

[GoldenSeal]

When I was in RCIA, our instructors addressed social justice in very general terms. It became clear that “helping the poor” is critically important, but it is up to the individual as to how. Each person is free to respond to what she feels God is calling her to do. We have a huge diversity of people in our parish ranging from conservative to liberal, so helping the poor and acting on other social justice issues takes many forms.

That being said, I do believe the Church is pro-life across the board, that the death penalty is opposed; someone can correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[John_Martin]

That was my understanding when I studied it for myself.

So when I’m interpret things one way and my church leaders teach me another, how do I distinguish who is right? Should I look at everything I’m taught at church with suspicion? Do I have to then take everything I learn at church to outside sources and gather opinions on what’s right or wrong? How do I know that anybody else’s opinion is more valid than mine or more valid than the RCIA leader’s? What’s my answer here?

I always go to the horse’s mouth: The canons and decrees of the councils, papal encyclicals, accepted theologians (like Aquinas), the Catechism, the Scripture, etc.
At RCIA, I was more in tune with most of what we studied than the instructor, and added content to discussions due to my excitement about the Church. To me, the Church is right, and not opinion. Things I do not yet understand or see will become clear (I have experienced this), and I also know that others do not always understand (perhaps RCIA teachers at times), yet this also becomes clear in time. I never say to the Church, “you are wrong”, but I say, “I do not understand how you can say this or that; keep explaining until I do understand you”. And, invariably I have found the explanations and the understanding and it is very good.

 

[Ender]

Everything I have stated that I believe IS contrary to Catholic teaching, per the RCIA leader.

Your RCIA leader is confusing doctrine with the application of doctrine. We are doctrinally obligated to help the poor, but we have no obligation whatever to support any particular means to achieve that end. The church specifies the ends, but the means to that end are prudential judgments, and it is our - and not the church’s - obligation to make those choices based on our own judgment.

What I am taught in RCIA is what the church is teaching me, isn’t it?

Clearly not.

That is church teaching because I am being taught it by a duly designated leader of the church at a required church function and I am not allowed to join the church until I sit there and listen to it and learn it. It isn’t being taught as a belief that is optional or open to interpretation or nuanced, but as fact.

There are church doctrines that must in fact be believed, or at least accepted. One of the sillier beliefs is that one can accept some doctrines and reject others, but that isn’t what is involved here. You have no obligation to accept anyone’s opinions on the best way to resolve social problems.

The church says you must recycle.

The church has no opinion whatever on any specific program that doesn’t involve an intrinsic evil. She has an unambiguous position on abortion. She does not take sides on issues such as immigration, health care, or the budget (*opinions *of individual bishops and the USCCB notwithstanding). Let me put it this way: if something could be written up as a bill before congress you may take whatever side you choose (intrinsic evils excepted).

The church says the death penalty is absolutely forbidden.

Without meaning to derail this thread, this is absolutely wrong.On the contrary*,** These punishments are fixed by divine law *(Aquinas)

The church says you must buy fair trade goods and here’s the name of a store where you can do so. The church says you must bring your own grocery bags to the store. The church says you must boycott (name of company) because they don’t believe as we do.

This is breathtakingly bad. You can either rock the boat where you are; be silent, go through the motions, and ignore this nonsense; go somewhere else.

Ender

 

[ChurchSoldier]

As many have stated, what you were taught is a belief, but not necessarily the RCC belief.

Rather than reject Catholicism outright, you might try another program. Certainly if there is an FSSP parish in your area visit them, talk to their Priest or another Conservative Priest. One of the beauties of the RCC, like any Mainline Denomination, is that there are so many people they have people and clergy of differing opinions and interpretations.

What you experienced was by a Catholic, but not representative of all Catholics. Before rejecting the faith altogether, it would be worth investigating further.

Good Luck

 

[jmcrae]

You have p(name removed by moderator)ointed a problem with RCIA and with the requirement that prospective Catholics attend RCIA.

Yes, because people reading by themselves and teaching themselves (or not) and then making their own decision about readiness for the Sacraments aren’t going to come up with even weirder theologies.

RCIA has its issues, for sure, especially when volunteers with peculiar agendas are involved (on both sides of the fence; if you think the liberals are bad, the trads can be even worse), but at least it exposes people to the fact that there are Sacraments, and Liturgies, and the Bible, and the Catechism, and it allows them to meet and become known to their parish priest, and be able to ask him questions when they run into problems.

We also don’t have the Catechist’s perspective here, and we don’t know what was said during the question and answer period. Perhaps the Catechist was pointing out examples of how one might practice social justice in the real world, without making these things “requirements,” and maybe that was made clear in the portion of the meeting that the OP missed.

In any case, you can read the Catechism (the paragraphs are always noted on the handouts that are given in RCIA, so it’s easy enough to look them up) and discover that nothing of what was mentioned in the opening post can be found there.

 

[Usagi]

I believe the climate is changing and has always been changing, but I do not necessarily believe in manmade global warming.

It is looking increasingly likely that you (and I, who have long held the same position) are wrong, but the Church does not dogmatize on matters of scientific investigation.

I believe we should be charitable and care for the poor, but I do not believe that more powerful centralized government, fair trade schemes, boycotts of companies that have fallen out of favor, higher taxes, fewer free market principles, etc is always the best way to do this. I do believe it is more charitable to provide training and a job for someone than to provide them with a one-time handout. I don’t believe there is some amount of wage that is “fair” nor have I ever met the individual qualified to set that number. I do believe people should be paid for their work and treated with dignity and respect. I think they should be paid more for more skilled or better or more profitable work. I would rather work to raise everyone up to a higher standard than equalize us by bringing everyone else down to the lowest standard.

The Church at present does tend to warn against unbridled capitalism (and not just under Pope Francis; Pope Benedict wrote a pretty stinging encyclical on the topic) and does see a place for the state in assuring a just distribution of resources, but does not require that you sign on to any particular political roadmap.

Care for the poor and the dignity of workers are exactly the principles the Church espouses.

I choose to buy products with minimal packaging and recycle when possible, but I do not believe my salvation depends on it.

It does not.

I believe I should pay my water bill before I buy a new television or iPhone and if I can’t pay my water bill, I shouldn’t buy a new television or iPhone. If I can’t pay my water bill, I believe I should take quick showers and stop watering my lawn, or move to a more affordable area.

All right. Those things seem to be beliefs about your own behavior, and sound quite responsible. I don’t believe the Church would say that you should behave differently.

Now, if you are really applying these beliefs to other people and conditioning your help to the poor on whether they have failed to live as responsibly in the past, the Church (and the Lord, who after all delivers sun and rain to just and unjust alike) may differ.

I believe in personal property rights and the rule of law. I believe in the right of countries to enforce their laws and their borders.

So does the Church (as long as the laws are just).

I believe some of us have been given greater natural gifts than others, but I believe we all have a responsibility to do the best we can with what we have been given. And those of us with more have a responsibility to help those who have been given fewer natural gifts, but those with less are not exempt from any responsibility.

I imagine that the Church agrees here as well.

I have always believed the death penalty is licit in certain rare circumstances. On reading more about it, I am willing to accept that most countries these days do have the ability to imprison their most dangerous criminals indefinitely and do not need to resort to killing them.

The Church has always held that the death penalty is licit and just for some crimes. These days she questions whether, in most cases, the death penalty is necessary or whether we could instead demonstrate greater concern for the offender’s soul and our belief in the sanctity of human life by abstaining from its use where possible.

After today’s class, I now know all of my beliefs are in conflict with Catholic Social Justice teaching.

Your idea of Catholic Social Justice teaching (or your teacher’s) is rather skewed, so I wouldn’t be so sure about what you know, yet.

I now know that Catholic teaching is wrong, and I’m heartbroken.

Also, even if there are some points on which Catholic social teaching disagrees with your current beliefs, if you were hoping to become a Catholic you may not wish immediately to jump to the “I’m right and the Church is wrong” conclusion.

Usagi

 

[KathleenGee]

Whatsmyname…You should go to the pastor…the RCIA person is not fully informed. I had to leave a group that was really into social justice…just so long as it met their definition.

They cherry picked a bishops’ pastoral letter. Finally, a few weeks later, the actual complete Bishops’ pastoral letter was disclosed…and it put this group’s position away from the driver’s seat to the back of the bus. In good conscience, I could not remain in this group, especially when they did this very political presentation, no one could talk but just listen. So glad I am out of there … so glad.

If anything, with posters exhorting you what real social justice is…affirming your discomfort of what you are learning in that class…you are on board with the rest of us.

Christ’s kingdom is not of this world. We must stay in the heart of the Church, in Word and Sacrament.

There are certain positions and denials coming from some of our social justice people…and it is beginning to look like some form of Marxism…and very fuzzy, subjective practical theology to go with it.

I am sorry you were exposed to this, especially in RCIA.

PLEASE go to the pastor. If you do not get a response that gives you peace…then go to another pastor and speak with him your concerns.

Don’t give up!

IF anything does not sit right with you…you probably are coming from a correct stance…but need Catholic instruction and clarification of that position.

 

[whatsmyname]

In any case, you can read the Catechism (the paragraphs are always noted on the handouts that are given in RCIA, so it’s easy enough to look them up) and discover that nothing of what was mentioned in the opening post can be found there.

Handouts?

And I have a copy of the Catechism, but it has never been referenced in class or even mentioned that such a thing exists. We have been told not to try reading the Bible yet as it will just confuse us.

 

[jmcrae]

Handouts?

And I have a copy of the Catechism, but it has never been referenced in class or even mentioned that such a thing exists. We have been told not to try reading the Bible yet as it will just confuse us.

Seriously?

I gave my RCIA group a one-year Bible reading plan within the first month of RCIA, and made sure they knew how to read the notation in the Missalette so they can follow along with the daily Mass readings.

I did that because it said to do that in my RCIA leader’s guide. I’m not special. (Unless following the directions makes one “special.” Hope not!)

I’m sure you’ll find an RCIA that follows the same plan that we do, fairly close to home.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Are there any politically or economically conservative Catholics here? Do you just ignore what the Catholic Church teaches? How do you reconcile your divergent beliefs?

Yes, there is a conservative, traditional wing of the Roman Catholic Church. They are called “traditional Catholics”, and generally tend to be more conservative. Traditional Catholics do adhere to the Church’s teaching on social justice, but not in the manner in which you describe.

My parish, for example, collects coats for the poor for the winter. We have a weekly food drive to feed the poor where parishioners bring cans of food before weekly Mass. We actively support the Archdiocese in its outreach to the poor in our community. You get the idea.

At the same time, we celebrate the traditional Latin Mass, complete with Gregorian Chant. We have many young families, and we are in full communion with both the local Archdiocese and Rome.

Rather than reject Catholicism outright, you might try another program. Certainly if there is an FSSP parish in your area visit them, talk to their Priest or another Conservative Priest.

This is perhaps the best advice on this thread.

The FSSP is in communion with Rome, and its priests celebrate the older form Latin Mass (“Tridentine Mass”). FSSP stands for “The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter”.

If you are fortunate to have a FSSP parish nearby, you might consider attending their formation classes for new Catholics. My wife and I went through pre-marriage counseling with an FSSP priest, and were delighted with the advice we received.

If you do not have an FSSP parish nearby, your Archdiocese might have 1-2 parishes that celebrate the Latin Mass locally that you could consider as well.

 

[AussieTrish]

I hope you do stay. The RCIA time will pass, and basically, what training did the person get or were they just who was willing to do the job, and trusted just because they were long-term Catholic. Not right, I agree.

You however are someone who will truly be a good Catholic, a good, conscientious person faithful to what the Church truly teaches, what Christ teaches. You are the kind of Catholic we need. God grant you will overlook the inadequacies of your RCIA teacher, and will continue to listen to the true voice of the Church.

I thank God for your integrity, and hope that as Jesus overlooked the failings of the apostles, even of Peter, some glaring faults, He nevertheless forgave and built His Church with and despite the glaring faults of His chosen ones.
My Dad was an RCIA leader, but he used the Catechism and the bible.
As someone in RCIA you should be presents with a bible and the creed at some stage, and you would not be given a bible if you weren’t to use it as a RCIA traveler or as a Catholic.

I know it’s hard for a dedicated, informed person such as yourself, but please God you will pass the test of forgiveness for poor teaching, and keep your eye on Christ and the Church’s true teachings.

Thank you for giving us the opportunity to discuss this with you instead of just jumping overboard.
Trish

 

[SwampLight]

Please don’t give up! I encountered some of the same misguided interpretations in my RCIA classes (not all of them). Unfortunately, there are some who use RCIA instruction as an opportunity to erroneously portray their own political beliefs as the actual teachings of the Church. While there were some high points, there were many low points where I knew that I had to simply put up with bad teaching. Ultimately, I used my Catechism, my Bible, and the Holy Spirit as my guide. In fact, too often, RCIA simply felt like something to be endured, which is unfortunate. There really should be an agreed upon curriculum for RCIA, but there doesn’t appear to be yet. In many cases, it seems, RCIA can veer wildly from actual Church teachings. My wife and I saw it through, however, and I am eternally grateful that we didn’t give up (as we felt like doing many times before being confirmed.) What drew you to the Church initially is genuine - please hang in there and the rewards will be immeasurable.
Praying for you…

 

[jmr_1985]

Friend, RCIA teachers are volunteers. Don’t assume that everything they tell you is 100% authoritative or sometimes even 50% authoritative . If you are at a liberal parish and are unhappy, consider finding a new one. I’m a pretty big conservative myself and am right at home in the Church. Please don’t give up on the Church because of one bad RCIA program.

Have you looked into the FSSP, who celebrates the traditional latin mass? Generally, traditionalist tend to be pretty conservative (but not always!) and you might feel more at home there. I believe the FSSP is in the process of getting started in LA. I’m sure they could use some more people to help them get started. If you really don’t want to continue with your current RCIA, consider emailing Father (here is their website) or just checking out one of their Masses. The FSSP generally does private instruction of the faith as was done prior to Vatican II. So, if you joined with them, you’d likely have private instruction with Father, which might be cool. I can promise that anything you learn from the FSSP will be 100% orthodox Catholicism.

JMR

 

[Pat_Payne]

Everything I have stated that I believe IS contrary to Catholic teaching, per the RCIA leader. What I am taught in RCIA is what the church is teaching me, isn’t it? That is church teaching because I am being taught it by a duly designated leader of the church at a required church function and I am not allowed to join the church until I sit there and listen to it and learn it. It isn’t being taught as a belief that is optional or open to interpretation or nuanced, but as fact.

The church says you must recycle.

Wrong! While stewardship for God’s earth is a blessing, you are not going to Hell for not recycling. Our savior is Jesus Christ, son of God, not Al Gore, son of Al Gore, Sr.

The church says the death penalty is absolutely forbidden.

Wrong! While it is discouraged in favor of other punishments (especially in first-world countries where prisoners can be securely incarcerated at minimum risk to others), the death penalty, legitimately applied, is permitted in Catholic social teaching.

The church says you must buy fair trade goods and here’s the name of a store where you can do so.

Wrong! Again, while concern for poor workers is laudable, you can shop at any place you like (excepting, of course adult bookstores, drug pushers and the like, but that’s a different kettle of fish ) and Holy Mother Church is not going to stop you or even care overmuch.

The church says you must bring your own grocery bags to the store.

Wro-- HUH?!? That’s a new one on me. I defy whoever the guy or gal running your RCIA program is to quote where in Canon Law that’s explicitly spelled out. Or where in the Gospels. Or any authoritative, infallible, ex cathedra statements of Popes or Ecumenical Councils concerning the faithful and the objects they bring with them while shopping, This sounds like a lot of hogwash. No pope has ever seriously or even jokingly held forth on whether or not you should bring your own shopping bags. It’s not by any stretch of the imagination even remotely a matter of faith or morals.

The church says you must boycott (name of company) because they don’t believe as we do.

Wrong! While again a boycott might be a good way to send a message, no Catholic has ever, to my knowledge, been compelled under pain of sin to boycott a company.

On a personal level, I try not to buy religious articles made in China, but that’s just a personal revulsion to subsidizing a government willing to cater to my religious beliefs, while suppressing that same faith on their own soil.

They think it is black and white with no room for differing opinions.

Only on the serious stuff does that happen. Abortion. Same-Sex Marraige. The Ten Commandments-level stuff. Or should happen at least (cf. Rep Pelosi and VP Biden).

What am I supposed to do when they hold access to the sacraments hostage to belief in that?

If they’re denying you the Sacraments, in this case Confirmation, because of that baloney, talk first to the pastor, but with charity. He might not know what the RCIA is teaching at his parish. If that seems fruitless, write to the bishop of your diocese or archdiocese.

But please don’t leave the Church because this one parish’s approach to RCIA. If they are that obnoxious to you, please find another Catholic parish, explain your situation and try again. Don’t ever let human politics come between you and Christ. Believe me, he is much bigger than our petty political squabbles

 

[KathleenGee]

Pat, very good post!

Whatsmyname…if you ever get into a spot like this…whether it is something even the pope said that confuses you…do as you did…the Catholic Church Catechism is our guide of faith and morals. Anything outside of it that doesn’t sit right with you…doesn’t sit right with anyone else for the most part either.

 

[DoGodsBidding]

Handouts?

And I have a copy of the Catechism, but it has never been referenced in class or even mentioned that such a thing exists. We have been told not to try reading the Bible yet as it will just confuse us.

The RCIA team at out Parish hands out Bibles at the very beginning of a new class, and they are used at every class, as well as used for homework assignments, through-out the year. The RCIA leader you are dealing with has a much different approach that what I have encountered. I will add that your values would fit in very well at our Parish.

DGB

 

[SeekerofTruth27]

Hey whatismyname,

I’m sorry that you had such a bad experience at RCIA. What you describe as your belief is pretty much what the Church teaches or allows. What your RCIA instructor said is not what the Church teaches. It doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t want you to read the Bible or the Catechism.

Typically, a RCIA instructor is not referred to as a Church Leader. This term is usually used to describe the Pope, bishops, priests, etc. Basically people who are ordained.

Unfortunately, not all RCIA teachers stick to the actual teachings of the Church. This could either be through a misunderstanding of Church teaching, or an attempt to sabotage the Church. I don’t know your teacher so I can’t make any guesses at why he is doing this.

You seem to have a good knowledge of what the Church teaches. Please don’t act rashly and abandon the Church because some of its members are not staying faithful. Or, as it is often put: “Don’t abandon Jesus because of Judas.”

I would recommend taking the advice that other posters have given: go speak to your pastor. If he doesn’t want to correct your RCIA teacher, then you could write a respectful letter to your Bishop. You could also consider joining a different parish.

I hope this helps! If you have any more questions/concerns keep posting them so that we can help you.

God bless!

 

[Neofight]

Everything I have stated that I believe IS contrary to Catholic teaching, per the RCIA leader. What I am taught in RCIA is what the church is teaching me, isn’t it? That is church teaching because I am being taught it by a duly designated leader of the church at a required church function and I am not allowed to join the church until I sit there and listen to it and learn it. It isn’t being taught as a belief that is optional or open to interpretation or nuanced, but as fact.

The church says you must recycle. The church says the death penalty is absolutely forbidden. The church says you must buy fair trade goods and here’s the name of a store where you can do so. The church says you must bring your own grocery bags to the store. The church says you must boycott (name of company) because they don’t believe as we do.

What do your churches teach about Social Justice? Do they leave it up to the individual’s interpretation? Do they think it is a complex and nuanced subject, and tell you that Catholic belief on the specifics of it are varied? My church apparently doesn’t think that. They think it is black and white with no room for differing opinions. What am I supposed to do when they hold access to the sacraments hostage to belief in that?

I’m going to give the RCIA teacher the benefit of the doubt, only because I have had the same accusations made against me and other team members…more often than not it’s a misunderstanding or the catechumen or candidate has preconceived notions about what they think the church teaches and is unwilling to listen.

I would suggest you speak privately with this instructor and only after that speak to the RE director or pastor, and pray on it…if those steps don’t resolve the issues maybe you are not ready to join the Church in full communion…because it is important you come into the faith fully committed and not luke warm.

Peace and all good!

 

[truetofaith]

I am a Catholic who is attending RCIA just to learn about my faith more. With the exception of the death penalty thing, which I’m still struggling with, I found nothing wrong with your beliefs (look at 2Thes 3:6-13). Your RCIA instructor may be misguided or misinterpreting the social teachings. Before you walk away from Christ’s glorious church, you owe it to yourself to find out more.

Get with your instructor first and confirm what he/she told you and ask for specifics regarding what they said. RCIA, if done correctly, welcomes questions about the church’s teachings and are not considered a threat to authority. If you are still not satisfied, get with a Deacon and then maybe a Priest.

There is too much riding on what may turn out to be a misunderstanding or misconception.

I will surely pray for you to not walk away.

As far as the death penalty is concerned read, for the entire quote :Romans 13 : 3 & 4 . The one in authority bears the sword to punish the wrongdoer.
A sword usually kills, so there is the death penalty.