I have no relgion left

[RC1960]

irishjoe, (If your not going to capitalize God and Jesus, why should I yours? Not busting your chops but a friendly poke.)

I’ll start again…

IrishJoe,

Firstly, am I worth reading?: I should have died when I was two but didn’t know what was going on (put my parents through the wringer, though, a tumor in a very wrong place). I’ve lost vision in one eye and likely to eventually lose the other due to glaucoma.(but I adore photography) Spiritually, I’ve been on the outside and atheism never proved an option. I just wanted back in (sorry, no private revelations allowed posting.) I don’t want you to get that point. Suffice it say, I came to find that a better familiarity with the CCC would have avoided the whole thing.
So what do you say? Am I worth a read?

I think your girlfriend may be correct, from your first post I was sensing a certain level of Scrupulosity too. Not necessarily with what you found wrong but in the level you let it affect you. Still, I know what you mean yet you must remain true though all around you are losing their heads…even at Mass. You bring you to Mass and you be your best at Mass-that’s all you can control. While the that Mass may be illicit that does not make it invalid.

I understand what its supposed to be but I don’t belive it. Jesus dies to take gods vengance and save us from his wrath which his justice demands and so forth.

Nope, this is a particular protestant denomination’s view. I though you studied Catholic apologetics?

I realise I am very confused and this mightn’t make much sense but has anyone else been here and if so would they have advice? I would appreciate if people didn’t say ‘just go to mass it will all come back’ as that is essentially saying ‘just accept it and dont worry about all these issues that are clearly important to you’ equally I have been attempting to pray a little but to no avail.

I think you make a lot of sense and what you cite as not believing I find are what tie it all together as a great cross-referencing index. Jesus came to fulfill not replace. You’re right, there is no magic but what I think people really are saying keep attending Mass is to exercise patience. You’re forcing it.

BTW, you don’t have to do all the standing, sitting, and kneeling. Given your condition your attendance can be enough. The Church is not only just over 2,000 years old, it’s has dealt with any manner of human condition during that time, too, and will continue to do so as we evolve because one of the Church’s tools is to discern intent not strictly make determinations based on causality.

You’re going to have relax your grip of your version of control (that you “have to” or they “have to”) and nor is the Church’s Catechism meant to enslave (that you “have to” or they “have to”.) God wants all to come freely, so much so that He extended the privilege for you to leave. God did not create puppets nor does the Church want them, but the fact remains that you are still here.

Why IrishJoe are you still here? You went to Mass and did not take Communion for sound reason, so you display a level of honor. You continue to pound on doors for answers so you display a level of perseverance. You’ve been diagnosed with a debilitating illness and yet continue to search where others would have seen reason to give up, and so you display a level of fortitude.

Why? Could it be you sense that there is something here and even if you left, you would likely return for it’s want? It does not matter IrishJoe if you believe or not because this is…it is the Eucharist: the source, summit, and center of the Church. Just being in the presence of the Eucharist has already served you precisely because you are still here. It may also be the best place to re-start by finding a church or chapel where the host is reserved, to just be in the presence of the Eucharist and going with nothing more than the intent to go and just be. The best analogy I’ve heard is likening this to the sun and one of it’s affects. You don’t have to believe in the sun to get tanned, just being in it’s presence changes you. So, too, the Eucharist.
Just remember: patience.

Prayer. Didn’t do much for you? DON’T praying for your self and start praying for others. Do one good thing for someone else Just get out of your self.

Finally, a bit miffed with God for the illness, I can’t blame you, so upon whom would you wish it? Bear your cross, for we often admire those that accomplish things in spite of their afflictions not because of them.

There are great resources here, I highly recommend listening to episodes of “The Journey Home” in the Catholic.com library or podcast. It will address your questions. iTunes also has other great Catholic podcasts presented by people doing their best to keep the Faith, sharing some of the down times and struggles, but eventually finding hope. Not slappy happy nor rule minders either. OK enough of my burbling.

 

[eelpis]

Tired is one way of putting it. I am tired of going up and down in faith/relgion and I need stability. I am tired trying. I’ve tried to meet god 1/2 way but its not working. Weather its me getting stuck at 1/4 way or god not bothering I dont know. All I know is that I am very confused.

Relax, if you are ill there is no obligation to go to mass. You can have mass offerd in your intentions though.

And follow the advise of Pascal against doubts, have som holy water at home and bless yourself, have masses offered and just let God do the job, there’s no point in exhausting your brain. Relax.

 

[babesinarms]

Well thank God, you have no religion left. Religion without lived faith is archaic. You are standing on the brink of creating your own life choices. We are on a journey of being totally emptied of ourselves so that we can put asunder our own will and avail ourselves to the mercy and love of God. I recall many people talking about what they feel is the sadistic nature of God, that life is one big cruel joke. Some of these people have chosen to go beyond this and have managed to find their own unique relationship with God. The Catholic Church carries the responsibility of carrying on “revelation”. Our responsibility, under this umbrella of revelation, is to seek what God "reveals" to us, personally. Where does God meet us in our personal situations? You can no longer ‘borrow’ the faith from your carers, those involved in your life. It is time to spread your own wings and seek the horizons of your destiny, it is time for you to walk and talk with God on your own. It is time to make choices, and have to take and face the consequences, but knowing that Jesus said that He will never leave us or forsake us. This is called growing up, we are no longer children. However, we can turn our backs on Him. Stop pointing the finger and start your own walk if you want God in your life. There are many, many people who have suffered all kinds of things in their lives, things that seem incomprehensible as to why they should bear these sufferings. Many of them choose to follow on with their faith, coming to a much greater and richer understanding of who God is and have even been able to welcome these ‘mishaps’ in their lives because of the closeness it has brought them with God. So, do you want God in your life or not? Do you have a heart that yearns after Him? You will never find truth in this world, it is built on a lie. Perhaps a retreat of some kind would give you this time to seriously open your heart to Him. “Harden not your hearts”…
May you find the Truth,The Way and The Life that exists with God, only through Jesus Christ. It was through His suffering and death on the cross that allowed us to go this path.

 

[John1]

Hi IrishJoe,

I’m sorry to hear about your condition both physical and spiritual. I don’t know if there’s anything that I can write that will help you, but I will write a few things from my point of view.

I think that we are overwhelmed today with so much bad news on the television and papers, that one would have to be living in a fantasy land in order to not be depressed. I aslo believe that it’s wrong to say, as many do, that Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox are different religions. We are all one religion, and that religion is Christianity. There are hate mongers on all sides, spewing their divisve rhetoric and causing a lot of people to want to give up on Christianity. I was baptized in a Baptist Church and I now am a member of the RCC. Like you, there are several areas that I don’t agree with the RCC on, and there are several areas that I don’t agree with the Baptist, Presbyterians, Episcopal, etc. on either, but I am still a Christian.

I’m a Christian, and my love and prayers go out to you. This is how we know our Christian family, by the love we have for one another. I pray that there will be a cure for your physical condition,and I pray that you find a cure spiritually.

 

[IrishJoe]

Joe, you keep repeating that you do not believe, you do not accept, but you don’t say why. If you did, perhaps it would help us understand more. Why don’t you believe in Original Sin?

Your tone sounds as if you’ve given up, but you’re here asking for help.

I dont think that it is fair that I require saving from some supposed defect I gain by virtue of being born. I dont belive and accept these things as I cannot see how they make sense.

Yes I am asking as it was once imporant to me.

To reject Gods authority by disobeying Him is to reject God as God and thus to no longer believe in Him. The purpose of this life is to prove to us our need for God- to prove that God exists and that man cannot live without Him.

thats not respecting free wil though if at every turn God is trying to ‘prove’ that we need him.

Our unrighteousness is not that we’re bad-like we’re contaminated-it’s that we’re not just by virtue of the fact that we think we are just without God.

dont agree with this as it makes no sense, if people belived this then we’d all be out killing people to send them to god in spite of the 10 commandments. I dont see why we’re wihtout God if he’s everyhwere and supposedly loves us.

We can easily get caught up in the “being Catholic”-the mechanics of the religion-and miss the goal of it. Gods’ purpose is to make us holy as he is holy-which ultimately means for us, with His molding and our cooperation, to be perfected in love.

Another St Augustine quote:
Love, and do what you like.

Sorry for running on if this is nothing new to you.

no its interesting, but at the same time If I say ‘love’ another man and have homosexual relations then that is contrary to agustine [though as fair as I recall wasn’t agustine gay before he converted and became a monk? also for the record I am heterosexual ] Love and do what you like doesnt cut it. I can do that without being relgious.

Go to mass and just sit in the back with your eyes closed. I’m praying for you

Thank you but I have had much experience of that being Irish - many men still stand down the back of church lest they have to escape should the British come raiding I dont like mass, I feel stressed when I have to be there.

Nope, this is a particular protestant denomination’s view. I though you studied Catholic apologetics?

a bit like i mentioned, but I fail to see the point of it all.

You don’t have to believe in the sun to get tanned, just being in it’s presence changes you. So, too, the Eucharist.

interesting way of putting it… if only they had eucharistc adoration [or even confession] at my parish. Though wouldn’t it be offensive to be sitting infront of something that I thought was bread that is supposed to be jesus as opposed to bread that is jesus? It would be like mistaking the pope for marie stopes or something. Also maybe I dont want to be changed, where is my free will going?

So, do you want God in your life or not? Do you have a heart that yearns after Him? You will never find truth in this world, it is built on a lie

To be honest I dont know, I see God a bit capricious and I dont know if my heart actually yearns. I am just rather curious and I do think something is missing. Of course it could be a false need, I have often wondered if god is real then maybe it is the devil running all the major churches to corrupt people.I also wonder about if I have children and they are raised to be religous and I am not.

In addition disagree, I think that there are truths in this world and I dont think it is built on a lie. I do think however that dishonestly creates much suffering for others.

I was baptized in a Baptist Church and I now am a member of the RCC. Like you, there are several areas that I don’t agree with the RCC on, and there are several areas that I don’t agree with the Baptist, Presbyterians, Episcopal, etc. on either, but I am still a Christian.

I have often wished that I wasn’t raised as a catholic as then I wouldn be one. I dont agree with some things so wouldnt be able to join. I dont know what you dont agnree with but they musn’t be that imporant if you profess your belief in that church.

 

[Galnextdoor]

Hi IrishJoe,

Wow! You must be incredibly smart. Maybe you could figure out how string theory, quantum theory and the Law of Relativity all fit together and come up with the Theory of Everything! LOL (Just joking.)

The point I was trying to make was that there are some things that are beyond our understanding. At some point, belief requires a suspension of disbelief.

A scientist sets up an experiment with a hypothesis that he assumes will be proved correct. For experiment to be valid, he must set aside all beliefs and disbeliefs, focusing only on the research and the resulting information.

A sincere search for Truth requires a similar approach.
If one approaches a book with the attitude of, “I don’t believe x,y and z, so prove me wrong,” chances are the book wont prove one wrong. If one approaches a book with an attitude of, “I don’t understand these things, maybe this book has something that explains it,” one might be more likely to consider what information is found. If the book doesn’t contain subject matter relevant to the questions (hypothesis), don’t count it as part of your research. Just because Catholicism for Dummies and the CCC only explain what Catholics believe, doesn’t mean you should give up the search for why Catholics believe what they believe. (BTW, much of the why is explained by researching the footnotes in the CCC.)

I wish you would watch Created and Redeemed by Christopher West on DVD and tell me what you think.

I don’t think you will get Jesus and Mary, until you understand Adam and Eve. You also have to understand Lucifer as well. The key to understanding it all, is understanding the real meaning of Genesis.

Would you consider listening or watching Created and Redeemed? It’s available through Ascension Press. It discusses sex, but also the purpose of Adam and Eve and why Jesus came to the world. It wont give all your answers, but it might be a good springboard for your search.

If nothing else, find a copy of Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body and delve through it. I guarantee it will give you much to think about if you approach it with an open mind.

I will continue to pray for you.

 

[ohioszo]

I am not that person anymore. I felt the opposite at university. I had room to live my own life and things seemed to flourish. now that its over I feel restricted and constrained.

Despite the difference between you and me and Eco, and others, we all still need to find our souls and the Holy Spirit in our lives. Some person may feel constricted in their job. Family may tell you that noone likes their job: Once you start raising a family, you may feel even more constrained, so, try to settle this beforehand. Obviously, Umberto Eco had an occupation that he was happy about. and good at. My Dad was constrained in his choices due to WWII and marriage in 1945. He found other things to do besides in civic activities, etc. and kept his humble Faith. Then there are those who are coming home, now, from the war, with their handicapped bodies.

That is why I mentioned finding these good folk in the world who are holy and humble … looking for virtue in others. That Dentist of ours, who is forever looking at teeth… When I serve holy communion, I know how humble the parishioners are: Holy communion brings us all together as one. The hands of some folk …

I’ve had enough catholic guilt to last a lifetime. I dont want more.

I just meant if you believe that you have kept up with learning about your Faith to have an adult faith life. Accept the fact that you are responsible for some bad choices, rather than blaming everyone else. Kind of like what any people may do on New Years Day, see what can be improved, promise to do better and recognize that it is up to ourselves with God’s help. How can you reject God if you are having problems?

I’m not denying that they dont, however if I dont take at least 4 injections perday I WILL die a slow and painful death before going into a coma and taking a heart attack. I was already nearly there once. So I’m not really that hopeful of a miracle cure. I am thankful due to the course of actions i took and meeting the protestant chaplain who randomly decided I looked ill and ook me to the hospital.

If that’s the case then God is indeed a manipulative sadist, so I hope its not true.
. Its largely irrelavant, I have this now, I will have it forever unless a cure is developed. Until then my body will continue to chew on my islets and my pancreas will not work.

I know that you must have juvenile diabetes and I want you to be aware that everyone has something. What I have could have been prevented probably, is also probably genetic. I think that we need counseling when we find out what we have. We don’t always get it, and then the problem exacerbates … problems accumulate around it. Someone else, with the same problem, or worse, may have overcome it.

Thats true but the rules are there and must be acknowleged and obeyed. This is something I take great issue with. As for religon I live in ireland currenlty, catholicsm is sort of the default only sans any sort of education in the faith

The rules are rather basic. We have to do better than that in life. I came to a point where breaking rules wasn’t an issue at all, very happy; then, a sibling came home to live and her family had fallen away so completely and it seems as if I made her incredibly jealous. Simple moral and societal rules were being broken, home was a place for screaming and hollering, spousal abuse, child abuse, maybe even abortion. When you start accepting that and blaming the rest of the world, or the church, then you really need God in a bad way.

What about going on a retreat?

 

[fhansen]

thats not respecting free wil though if at every turn God is trying to ‘prove’ that we need him.

I dont see why we’re wihtout God if he’s everyhwere and supposedly loves us.

The point is that God isn’t bound to prove anything to us-He does it anyway because He knows we’re lost in this world. You say God is supposed to be everywhere (and He is-we can’t even breathe without Him but we’re taught that He actually “hides” Himself. That’s why we walk by faith rather than by sight. By being cast out of the garden and banned from the tree of life, man was effectively cut off from God-he cut *himself *off from God-that’s the state or condition in which we find ourselves in this world. The purpose of this life-with pain/death/suffering along with the good- a world where we know good and evil-is, with the help of revelation via our faith, to propel us towards the good. Evil is to be separated from God and this life is a taste of that separation where we can make the choice whether or not to mend it.

We decide whether or not we need God-whether or not a world where mans’ will effectively reigns supreme is better than a world where Gods’ will reigns supreme. And if we look around us we should get a pretty fair idea what man is capable of .Man can produce good and do alright for awhile but ego and greed and selfishness and fear are right there at the door ready to come in and screw everything up, man often harming each other in ways far beyond what reason might call for. Unnecessary strife and contention are the rule rather than the other way around and this, for one, makes sense out of the doctrine of original sin. In any case our standards are too low - the peace which God desires for each one of us is way beyond anything the human mind comprehends.

no its interesting, but at the same time If I say ‘love’ another man and have homosexual relations then that is contrary to agustine [though as fair as I recall wasn’t agustine gay before he converted and became a monk? also for the record I am heterosexual ] Love and do what you like doesnt cut it. I can do that without being relgious.

We don’t need religion to love- we need God. Our standard-maybe not you-for what constitutes love is way below what God means by it. The ultimate in love is to be willing to sacrifice your life for another but in any case the love of *God *is so unimaginably vast that it can only be experienced-and even then experienced only as a gift-but this is the kind of love He ultimately desires for us to know and to have.

BTW, Augustine was basically a heterosexual womanizer.

 

[fhansen]

Love and do what you like doesnt cut it. I can do that without being relgious.

**“Love, and do what you like.” **
The gist of this statement is that scrupulosity or legalism don’t cut it. If we admit to our own lack-our imperfections or unrighteousness-our lack of love IOW- then God can begin to effect a change in us. The change He’s after is for us to become perfected in love-because that’s how we’re intended to be and that’s the only way for us to attain the happiness we want. If we love God and neighbor, we’ve fulfilled the Law-that’s it. And while it’s not so easy as it sounds, mainly due to those things we place above God-above love, God’s command to mankind is and has always been: Thou shalt LOVE. It’s kind of funny-ironic might be a better word- that we would actually have to be commanded to do that.

 

[michaelcollins]

I dont think that it is fair that I require saving from some supposed defect I gain by virtue of being born. I dont belive and accept these things as I cannot see how they make sense.

Yes I am asking as it was once imporant to me.

thats not respecting free wil though if at every turn God is trying to ‘prove’ that we need him.

dont agree with this as it makes no sense, if people belived this then we’d all be out killing people to send them to god in spite of the 10 commandments. I dont see why we’re wihtout God if he’s everyhwere and supposedly loves us.

no its interesting, but at the same time If I say ‘love’ another man and have homosexual relations then that is contrary to agustine [though as fair as I recall wasn’t agustine gay before he converted and became a monk? also for the record I am heterosexual ] Love and do what you like doesnt cut it. I can do that without being relgious.

Thank you but I have had much experience of that being Irish - many men still stand down the back of church lest they have to escape should the British come raiding I dont like mass, I feel stressed when I have to be there.

a bit like i mentioned, but I fail to see the point of it all.

interesting way of putting it… if only they had eucharistc adoration [or even confession] at my parish. Though wouldn’t it be offensive to be sitting infront of something that I thought was bread that is supposed to be jesus as opposed to bread that is jesus? It would be like mistaking the pope for marie stopes or something. Also maybe I dont want to be changed, where is my free will going?

To be honest I dont know, I see God a bit capricious and I dont know if my heart actually yearns. I am just rather curious and I do think something is missing. Of course it could be a false need, I have often wondered if god is real then maybe it is the devil running all the major churches to corrupt people.I also wonder about if I have children and they are raised to be religous and I am not.

In addition disagree, I think that there are truths in this world and I dont think it is built on a lie. I do think however that dishonestly creates much suffering for others.

I was baptized in a Baptist Church and I now am a member of the RCC. Like you, there are several areas that I don’t agree with the RCC on, and there are several areas that I don’t agree with the Baptist, Presbyterians, Episcopal, etc. on either, but I am still a Christian.

I have often wished that I wasn’t raised as a catholic as then I wouldn be one. I dont agree with some things so wouldnt be able to join. I dont know what you dont agnree with but they musn’t be that imporant if you profess your belief in that church.

Almost everyone on this board will have had some of the same experiences you are going through, here is mine. I was raised protestant and the God they worshipped was so full of Hell fire and brimstone, so punishing, so negative I became agnostic.

Even in a protestant community every girl I dated was catholic, I was even married in the church, we divorced and I got an annullment.But I had started going to mass.

I was remarried and going to mass when I started liking me Galway born priest, we became friends. His god was a loving forgiving god.I aatended RCIA and converted.

I was diagnosed this year with pancreatic cancer-a death sentence. My wife and many others prayed it away-God healed me. No explanation-just a miracle. I am not deserving just God apparently was not through with me yet.

I have found I do not have all the answers, but the church serves to search out and provide me with a lot. while recuperating from surgury( i still had to have tumors removed even though they were no longer cancerous) on good friday I awoke on the couch to my wife watching a show on the crucifixition, not much about the ressurecction. I had nightmares that death was al there was until sunday mass. I have had this fear some but it recently vanished.

I had looked up the church’s position on the resurection and it ended the nightmares.

The church does not believe in the literal interpretation of the bible as do most protestants, one of the big divisions. I like the intellectual search for filling in the gaps when something is not writtin out in scriptures. protestants believe if it is not in the bible it doews not exits, it allows us to have scholars provide answers.

The reason I am writing this is I found my answer, you need to use the resources available to find yours. It might be a priest or it could be the answer people on this bd for the individual questions you have. submit each of them. I will bet as the questions are answered you will find that if you are satisfied your faith will be renewed and you wont find the irritation you currently find in mass.

Good luck, may God bless, like others I’ll pray foir you as was done for me.

 

[IrishJoe]

Accept the fact that you are responsible for some bad choices, rather than blaming everyone else

I didnt choose to get ill, I didnt choose to eat an apple coaxed on by a talking snake

Wow! You must be incredibly smart. Maybe you could figure out how string theory, quantum theory and the Law of Relativity all fit together and come up with the Theory of Everything! LOL (Just joking.)

I havent looked into string thoery. Something about vibrating strings of energy inside subatomic particles or whatnot?

A scientist sets up an experiment with a hypothesis that he assumes will be proved correct. For experiment to be valid, he must set aside all beliefs and disbeliefs, focusing only on the research and the resulting information.

A sincere search for Truth requires a similar approach.
If one approaches a book with the attitude of, “I don’t believe x,y and z, so prove me wrong,” chances are the book wont prove one wrong. If one approaches a book with an attitude of, “I don’t understand these things, maybe this book has something that explains it,” one might be more likely to consider what information is found. If the book doesn’t contain subject matter relevant to the questions (hypothesis), don’t count it as part of your research. Just because Catholicism for Dummies and the CCC only explain what Catholics believe, doesn’t mean you should give up the search for why Catholics believe what they believe. (BTW, much of the why is explained by researching the footnotes in the CCC.)

I am aware of this, I was just explaining what I have read. But realistically am I supposed to buy and read absolutley every book until I have unconsciously indoctrinated myself by sheer attrition ?
I also dont have the funds to buy books at the moment. I have 2 religous books I’ve not read, one on the jesuits [if you have rolled your eyes there then you are offically an ‘uber trad’] and one called ‘imitating christ’ but I could not read the latter, I was like trying to swim through rice.

I don’t think you will get Jesus and Mary, until you understand Adam and Eve. You also have to understand Lucifer as well. The key to understanding it all, is understanding the real meaning of Genesis.

why do I need to get Mary? There is a real over empahesis. I thought it was just Ireland and our crazy cultural ways but it is catholcism globally. Someone [unqualified] once siad to me that mary was incorporated to appease pagans who were used to worshipping Goddesses. I realistically have to take a step back and consider that maybe there was some truth in that. {also considering the overlap in pagan holidays and Catholic ones}

How can you reject God if you are having problems?

Easily. Where are the footsteps beside me ? where are the hands carrying me ? they are not there. I am alone.

is also probably genetic.

no family history. Like I said dioxins from the dump, the county where I come from in Ireland has the highest cancer, suicide and road death rate and no… its not dublin or limerick…

The rules are rather basic

they aren’t though. They are extremely thorough. Visit a website like fisheaters or even the ‘traditional’ section. Never have I seen such division in ‘one’ church!
No eating meat on fridays except fish because that’s not meat as it has cold blood. Despite what the bible apparantly says shellfish are ok (godhatesshellfish.com I think - its very funny). women must cover their heads, the mass must be said facing east and so forth. Its complex and ritualistic. Attractive to a degree but when it becomes over the top its unattractive.

By being cast out of the garden and banned from the tree of life, man was effectively cut off from God-he cut himself off from God-that’s the state or condition in which we find ourselves in this world.

the sins of the father shall not be passed on to the son.*

it also says opposite elswhere in the bible but the above one is more just in my opinion. Both are the word of God apparantly.

BTW, Augustine was basically a heterosexual womanizer.

I thought I’d read that he was homosexual but turned away when he became a monk. Maybe it was some other saint.

I have found I do not have all the answers, but the church serves to search out and provide me with a lot.

I dont think anyone has all the answers. Not even the church, but recently I’ve not found it particulaly forthcoming.

I have posted a thread with a question.

 

[Galnextdoor]

I think the women covering their head and the church facing a certain direction is part of another type of Catholicism. I can’t remember what type of Catholicism, but I think it’s Eastern Rite. The other “catholic” churches have split away from the original Roman Catholic church. Most of the other Christian churches have been created when someone disagreed with the Roman Catholic Church.
They broke away and started their own brand of Christianity. The Eastern Rite split away with Bishops and Archbishops who can be traced back to the apostles, so their sacraments are valid for Roman Catholics, but only in a pinch. If a Roman Catholic can receive sacraments in a Roman Catholic Church, then he should, because it is the Roman Catholic Church he is in communion with.
The Eastern Rite is has much of the real the Truth, but they seem to be more rigid about anything new or different. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think they do not believe in the infallibility of the Pope when he speaks ex cathedra. As far as I know, through all the centuries, the popes have chosen to speak ex cathedra only 6 times.

 

[IrishJoe]

yes and they do that as a relic from the latin mass

I think the women covering their head and the church facing a certain direction is part of another type of Catholicism.

The Tridentine rite is performed facing east and women cover their heads

 

[fhansen]

the sins of the father shall not be passed on to the son.

Well, somethin’ changed with Adams’ sin. And unless we’re to believe that some of the bizarre stuff people do including the most evil-rape, torture, murder- is natural for man, then original sin makes a lot of sense. The Church teaches that we aren’t guilty of Adams’ sin but we do inherit his fallen state. IOW, pain, suffering, death, evil, were not part of Gods’ original picture for mankind. But that consequence, of being cast into such a place as this, while sometimes called punishment is actually reformative in nature from the outset-or even formative really, as Gods’ plan is to raise man higher than he started out. In the end this existence we’ve been given-and which we generally cherish and cling to regardless of our angst or anger or pain - is worth it.

If you want to see the heart of original sin in man, look at self-righteousness-whether your own or others. Look at the evil that pride and greed has occasioned in this world-the ugly things people do to each other for nothing more than glory or wealth or self-satisfaction. Even the small ways people cover up the bad and embellish the good about themselves is a sign of our lack of innocence- innocence defined as simply the way we “ought to be”. We all know intuitively, I think, that something’s off-based with mankind. Everyone wants to find the answer if they haven’t given up and based there lives around silly, temporal things. Whether or not we think we should’ve inherited any consequences of Adam’s sin, I think the obvious reality is that we did.

"This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections."
– Saint Augustine

it also says opposite elswhere in the bible but the above one is more just in my opinion. Both are the word of God apparantly.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. Rom 5:12-14

 

[IrishJoe]

The Church teaches that we aren’t guilty of Adams’ sin but we do inherit his fallen state

.

but why ? that makes no sense what so ever why would god allow us to inheret a fallen state? Why not prevent it from being inheretable?

IOW

what is IOW ?

If you want to see the heart of original sin in man, look at self-righteousness-whether your own or others.

I see where you’re coming from - humans aren’t always nice but on the other hand it doesnt prove original sin.

Look at the evil that pride and greed has occasioned in this world-the ugly things people do to each other for nothing more than glory or wealth or self-satisfaction.

Not everyone is evil or full of pride or greed though. In addition it stems to the marian question - if god can. . on a whim totally ignore all the rules for 1 person before they were born ergo they have no capicity to commit sin then why not do that to everyone so everyone starts off on equal footing ?

 

[NonCatholic]

I was ‘made’ to go to ‘midnight mass’ (actually a vigil mass at 8pm but its irrelavant!) and I kinda got ticked off. Maybe it was just the mostly terrible singing I dont know but it got me thinking.

6 & 1/2 months ago I was diagnosed with a serious long term illness and now I get physically stressed while at mass. I initally after coming out from hadn’t the energy to go - walking there stand up sit down kneeling and so forth. However I have only been to mass about 3 times and at my GF (Anglican) church about 3 times when I was visiting for a weekend.
I dont have the interest to go. When I’m there I get annoyed at stupid things like communion in the hand, women with no headcoverings (rule is still in effect), the hypocracy of people who only go to mass following the ‘Number of masses in a given year = 2 + F + B + M’ formula of Catholicsm. The sort of wishy washyness that priests are forced to conted with. I get annoyed at the idea that there are people who take communion and dont realise what it/is supposed to mean(s). I think I may be envious of thier ignorance. But this problem and my crumbling religon has began when I went to uni. and due to increased contct with protestants - usually of the CU/Evangelical type and never having realsied the different branches of Chrsitianity I had to educate myself so I decided to learn more about the faith in terms of apologetics.
I went to a couple of Latin masses and stuff too (I’d gone to a couple when I was younger before aswell). Yet I disagree with the extreme ‘be afraid of the priest’, old style, ‘uber traditional’ Catholicism as well as the neo-evangelical shenanigans of Y2K type ‘we’re so happy all the time’ rubbish.

I now know more of the church teachings than your average Irish Catholic and I find I disagree with some of them [initally purgatory, then original sin, then immaculate conception, then assumption, then transubstantiaton.] so find it pointless to go to mass as mentioned. However I have a slight worry about easter as then it is crunch time when I am supposed to get communion (minimum once per year near easter) but I cannot as its sacreligious to get it if in mortal sin (most probably due to not going to mass) or if I dont belive in transubstantiaon (which I dont).
There have been times (before I got ill) when I have lost sleep worrying about these things and my religon as it was that important to me but I dont anymore. I have never seemed to get sastifactorty answers regardless of what priests I have asked.

My next concern is that my girlfriend, who is wonderful and who I want to marry - we’ve talked about it lots, is an Anglican though her church is quite ‘low’ high anglican is more akin to tradtiional catholicm] so are more relaxed and non-judgemental yet a bit ‘evangelicaly’ with a lot of singing and cell groups and so forth. She is quite religous and if we got married (very real possibility) I worry about the religious differnces being problematic. However at the moment I dont agree with protestantism as to me to accept the bible means that one would have to accept the RC councils that state its infallible/the books are correct. Yet as far as I can fathom the only reason to belive the RCC is right is because of the bible says that Jesus founded it so it gets circular but either way seems to preculde protestantism which is based on a book that has no backup as to where it came from [not dissing protestanism just saying it like how it seems to me and where my confusion lies.]

Also the whole premise of god killing his son to save us from his wrath which he damned us to because some guy ate an apple/pomegranite 6000 years ago seems a bit thin at the moment. [comes back to original sin and my difficulty in the RC teaching of it] I have little faith in God but none in the concept of his son anymore. My GF thinks that maybe I was caught up in the rules and didnt have a relationship wiht god. I had a relationship wiht god, just probably not his son even though he’s all the one which probably means that I am confused about the trinity too.

I am also still angry at God for me being ill though that now seems a little irrational as its probably all the dioxins in the air from the disasterously managed dump about 5 miles from where I live. I’ve kind of adjusted to having to take multiple daily injections and worrying about going blind in the future.

My faith was important to me… I used to read at Mass, and say the rosary at funerals and do all the little ‘extras’ in catholicsim. Now its all dead to me. I have no real regard for the church but I respect it as having done some good in the world. Yet I have many criticisms of it too such as the lack of a christian community attatched to catholcsm when compared to protestant churches.

As for alternatives I find islam and judaism based on books which to me means I could base a religion on lord of the rings or dune and it would be equally as valid. All sorts of Paganism sounds like someone with an over active imagination has read dungeons and dragons and mixes up fantasy and reality. Buddhism isn’t technically a religon as it has no deity. Most other religons then seem more cultural. Non-theistic satanism I disagree with in terms of logic and morals so that’s out.

I realise I am very confused and this mightn’t make much sense but has anyone else been here and if so would they have advice? I would appreciate if people didn’t say ‘just go to mass it will all come back’ as that is essentially saying ‘just accept it and dont worry about all these issues that are clearly important to you’ equally I have been attempting to pray a little but to no avail.

Don’t go to Mass…read Matthew 7, then begin reading the Psalms, they will lead you to understand the God whom you know about and have a searching heart for.

God bless you and help to comfort you in this trying time. Brotherly Hug to you!

 

[fhansen]

.
what is IOW ?

In Other Words

.but why ? that makes no sense what so ever why would god allow us to inheret a fallen state? Why not prevent it from being inheretable?

To speculate as to why God would “punish” mankind for one mans’ sin gets back to my reference to the punishment being reformative or even formative in nature, IOW , part of an overall plan to bring about perfection in creation. The bottom line question, I think, is this: If, by creating good things in the form of sentient beings and giving them another good thing-the gift of free will, evil is one inevitable result, is it still worth it-was it just- to create? And Gods answer was obviously yes.

To my little brain this life is a schoolroom where I have the chance to come to learn what Adam & Eve apparently didn’t know-that I need God to live and breathe and have my being-that I need Him in order to truly live and know the happiness we all desire. And, that Goodness is at the foundation of the universe and that He’s worthy of my love, trust, and obedience after all. So I can reverse, within myself, the rejection of God that Adam & Eve deemed appropriate.

I don’t see it as unjust that all mankind fell if, given eternity, any of us would eventually do it and if Adam simply represented us in that fact. By representing all of us, the drama was set in motion. Mankind isn’t being punished-we’re being tested-to see if we’ll choose life or death-love or selfishness, when left to our own devices.

Original sin is no more than what most of us think we want anyway: us running the show without God-mans’ righteousness reigning rather than Gods’ righteousness–our will superior to His-Him out of the picture whether we pay Him lip service or not. We want nothing superior to us within us-which is the sin of pride-the main force behind moral evil in the world.

We fear the opinion of a world which accuses us of not being strong enough to live without bowing to God. The irony is that, whether we believe in Him or not, we nevertheless don’t live or breathe without Him. But who knows?-maybe I’m just talking about myself in all this.

. I see where you’re coming from - humans aren’t always nice but on the other hand it doesnt prove original sin.

Not everyone is evil or full of pride or greed though.

We are if even the smallest amount of sin in us is not part of the master plan-if it’s a sign of disorder or lack of the love which was intended to be there and if the most heinous examples of evil are simply the extreme end of a sickness common to us all.

The sickness is the self-righteousness that allows a man to determine that its alright for him to kill another man, for instance, whether or not his reasoning is objectively sound-whether or not, given the circumstances that exist, his motive is reasonable. The sickness is the turned-from-God state in which we all find ourselves in this world.

The fault is in us even though it’s not because of us but the resolution is no more than that the choice be made to rid ourselves of the fault by turning back to God. The fact that we may not want to go along with the program is no indication that the program-or the programmer -is wrong. It’s not that God doesn’t understand our weaknesses-it’s just that He wants better- He wants only the best-for us.

In addition it stems to the marian question - if god can. . on a whim totally ignore all the rules for 1 person before they were born ergo they have no capicity to commit sin then why not do that to everyone so everyone starts off on equal footing ?

Mary still had to live in this world, being tested through enduring its pain and suffering including the torture and death of her son.
And we can never escape the fact that her freedom was still present-always-to turn away from obedience. And this means that, in some way, Gods’ will was only done in her life because *she *agreed to it. And this freedom to choose is no different for the rest of us. Mary was full of grace-or highly favored-but she always had the capacity to commit sin. The Immaculate Conception didn’t prevent her from committing personal sin-it just freed her from the certitude of its’ being committed because she started out in right relationship to God. From there God may use favoritism for the purpose of bringing about salvation but we’re all on equal footing when it comes to obtaining that salvation/eternal life. So what was done for Mary was done for us all.

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Rom 9:21

We all suffer from evil in this world, finally the ultimate evil of death, which God answers with the resurrection. In the end the point of our faith is that God exists- and He’s the Boss-and that’s a very, very great thing for man to come to know.

 

[Galnextdoor]

God created Mary differently because he knew she would say yes to becoming the mother of Jesus. He wouldn’t want to have the physical body of his son created from a stained vessal.

 

[IrishJoe]

God created Mary differently because he knew she would say yes to becoming the mother of Jesus. He wouldn’t want to have the physical body of his son created from a stained vessal.

stained ? Mark 7 says that we are not unclean.

 

[Galnextdoor]

stained ? Mark 7 says that we are not unclean.

The unclean that was referred to in Mark 7 had to do Jewish laws and customs. I was referring to the stain of original sin on our soul. Mary didn’t have the stain of original sin on her soul, because God knew she would say yes to being the mother of His son. He didn’t want His Son’s physical body to be created from a stained vessal. Mary was the first tabernacle and more.