I have no relgion left

[IrishJoe]

The Immaculate Conception didn’t prevent her from committing personal sin-it just freed her from the certitude of its’ being committed because she started out in right relationship to God.

Why not start everyone out ? Again this makes no sense. To be honest it seems more likely that it was a doctrine invented to force people to belvie that they needed salvation and that they were unclean or impure or whatever phrase seemed like it would confer the most guilt/stop questions. Yet when mary is brought into the equation then exceptions have to be made. But why not make exceptiosn for everyone?

.

So what was done for Mary was done for us all.

God created Mary differently because he knew she would say yes to becoming the mother of Jesus. He wouldn’t want to have the physical body of his son created from a stained vessal.

if he knew what she’d do then why bother asking? The baby was already inside her (did it not kick when the angel appeared). And I dont like the idea of being a ‘stained vessal’ for no reason what so ever yet mary gets off scott free.

 

[fhansen]

Why not start everyone out ? Again this makes no sense. To be honest it seems more likely that it was a doctrine invented to force people to belvie that they needed salvation and that they were unclean or impure or whatever phrase seemed like it would confer the most guilt/stop questions. Yet when mary is brought into the equation then exceptions have to be made. But why not make exceptiosn for everyone?

.

if he knew what she’d do then why bother asking? The baby was already inside her (did it not kick when the angel appeared). And I dont like the idea of being a ‘stained vessal’ for no reason what so ever yet mary gets off scott free.

Who cares as long as justice is done and so everyone gets at least what they deserve? Read the parable of the workers in Matt 20.

If God offers you an incredibly bright future- one where dissatisfaction never occurs-will you look around and worry that someone else might be getting something better yet? That describes Adam and Eve’s situation in the garden, BTW (By The Way), where they said “no” to God and “yes” to a possibility that He might be holding something out from them.

The purpose of our faith is to get us to reverse this mistrust that resides inside of us and all you can do is show you still have it by your jealousy of Mary! Thank God for Mary and other saints and everyone who’s said yes to God and helped others to do so, too. Our “stain”, our “uncleanness”, is nothing more than that undeserved mistrust of God.

 

[Galnextdoor]

Hi,

I thought you should know that Mary was not pregnant when the angel appeared to her. The Holy Spirit came upon her after she said yes. It was Elizabeth, pregnant with John the Baptist, who had her baby leap in the womb.

I offered mass for you last night.

“If today you hear His voice, harden not your heart as at Meriba in the day of Massa in the desert.” Ps. 94:7,8

 

[IrishJoe]

ahh I stand corrected on the womb leaping.

Who cares as long as justice is done and so everyone gets at least what they deserve? Read the parable of the workers in Matt 20.

I care… its double standards of the RCC to say god is just except when he wants to be. Is he a capricious ficle fiend in the sky lauging at our folly or a creator who loves us as a father ?

If God offers you an incredibly bright future- one where dissatisfaction never occurs-will you look around and worry that someone else might be getting something better yet?

That’s not what I’m concerned about. After all if I got to heaven then im in the same position as Mary. (assuming that she’s there) Its the fact that we are tarred and ‘soiled’ before we are even born. It is this categorisation of humanity without giving them a fair free choice.

The purpose of our faith is to get us to reverse this mistrust that resides inside of us and all you can do is show you still have it by your jealousy of Mary!

that’s not ‘all i can do’. I am hardly envious of her. How ever I do not think that it is fair that exceptions can be made but aren’t. Statisically its more likely that she wasn’t immaculatly concived. There is no evidence that she is (and dont tell me about the apparatition - personal revelation doesnt count) other than the church says so.

Maybe I shouldn’t bother looking for answers or ask questions as they clearly aren’t being well recieved.

is nothing more than that undeserved mistrust of God.

I would say that it is very well deserved. Genocide, rape, incest… read the old testament.

 

[fhansen]

I care… its double standards of the RCC to say god is just except when he wants to be. Is he a capricious ficle fiend in the sky lauging at our folly or a creator who loves us as a father ?

In the parable of the workers everyone got paid the same.

That’s not what I’m concerned about. After all if I got to heaven then im in the same position as Mary. (assuming that she’s there) Its the fact that we are tarred and ‘soiled’ before we are even born. It is this categorisation of humanity without giving them a fair free choice.

Look around you first and observe original sin in action. Whether or not we like the category, isn’t it or something like it true in any case? Don’t we all know it’s true intuitively because if we didn’t think it was true that man can be wrong-objectively wrong-wouldn’t it be absurd for any of us to ever feel right in being morally outraged about anything man does?

The idea is that the choice made by way of Adam was mankinds’ choice and the choice offered to each of us now would be mankinds’ by way of each of us. This life is good/bad but worth it. We all, nearly unanimously, still cherish existence over the alternative and so even those who don’t believe in God tacitly agree with Him that even life in this screwed up world is worth it.

that’s not ‘all i can do’. I am hardly envious of her. How ever I do not think that it is fair that exceptions can be made but aren’t. Statisically its more likely that she wasn’t immaculatly concived. There is no evidence that she is (and dont tell me about the apparatition - personal revelation doesnt count) other than the church says so.

The Church says we don’t need to believe in private revelations of any kind.

Maybe I shouldn’t bother looking for answers or ask questions as they clearly aren’t being well received.

Well, you seem pretty bent on denying there might just possibly be any answers. But if I fail at convincing you it’s probably just my poor command of apologetics.

I would say that it is very well deserved. Genocide, rape, incest… read the old testament.

Last time I looked, mankind was doing those things and I’ve never heard the Catholic Church do anything but condemn them, no matter when it occurred. She would claim that man’s mistrust of God is what led to it all.

 

[Charmian]

Hi Irish Joe

Reading the “problem” and the replies has been fascinating.

Try going back to the simple stuff.

Do you believe that the universe sprung full blown and complete from nothing-ness? Of course not.

Do you think that a God that sent his Son - to die a horrible and humiliating death - is a better bet than the gods that “play” with humanity? Think Louis Pasteur here.

Go to a high place with a picnic basket (no alcohol), where there is much greenery and trees and have a good private heart to heart with your guardian Angel.

If nothing else, the green of nature soothes the spirit and silence is comforting to the soul. Maybe sunshine is in short supply and being ill doesn’t help; we all need vitamin D to have a good balance in our life.

Sometimes, we just overthink things.

 

[LSK]

I do not mean to be rude, but one of your posts spoke to the non-judgemental nature of the Anglican church of your gf and how attractive that is to you. From your attitude towards all those around you who are not behaving the way you want them to behave, I am not sure that’s the place for you.

Then again, I have never understood the concept of ‘non-judgemental’ as I have never met any human being who is non-judgemental.

I don’t know; you sound so much like me ‘back in the day’ I suspect there is more going on here than we will ever really know.

You are in my prayers.

 

[IrishJoe]

Last time I looked, mankind was doing those things and I’ve never heard the Catholic Church do anything but condemn them, no matter when it occurred. She would claim that man’s mistrust of God is what led to it all.

so helping the israelites murder their way through mobs of people is a good thing then ?

Do you believe that the universe sprung full blown and complete from nothing-ness? Of course not.

well if God created it would have to have sprung from nothing.

Do you think that a God that sent his Son - to die a horrible and humiliating death - is a better bet than the gods that “play” with humanity? Think Louis Pasteur here.

I dont think so to be honest, seeing as he is a robot with no free will.

Go to a high place with a picnic basket (no alcohol), where there is much greenery and trees and have a good private heart to heart with your guardian Angel.

If nothing else, the green of nature soothes the spirit and silence is comforting to the soul. Maybe sunshine is in short supply and being ill doesn’t help; we all need vitamin D to have a good balance in our life.

maybe, my gf is visitng tomorrow, I’m sure we will visit nice places.

Sometimes, we just overthink things.

Definatly, but still I want answers.

 

[fhansen]

so helping the israelites murder their way through mobs of people is a good thing then ?

I let the Catholic Church define-as far as it’s possible to do so -the nature of God-that’s her role. We’re not fundamentalists-she teaches that scripture contains the word of God and so far I’ve never known her understanding of Him to be anything other than love-“God is love”-even if her own people haven’t always acted in accord with that principle themselves. If for some reason scripture doesn’t appear to mesh with the Churchs’ teachings on Gods’ nature, I’ll go with her understanding and she can account for the apparent discrepancy if need be.

 

[IrishJoe]

I let the Catholic Church define-as far as it’s possible to do so -the nature of God-that’s her role. We’re not fundamentalists-she teaches that scripture contains the word of God and so far I’ve never known her understanding of Him to be anything other than love-“God is love”-even if her own people haven’t always acted in accord with that principle themselves. If for some reason scripture doesn’t appear to mesh with the Churchs’ teachings on Gods’ nature, I’ll go with her understanding and she can account for the apparent discrepancy if need be.

isnt’ that picking and choosing, a.k.a. protestantism, only siding with the magisterium rather than the scriptures?

 

[fhansen]

isnt’ that picking and choosing, a.k.a. protestantism, only siding with the magisterium rather than the scriptures?

Well, we are given the role of arbitrating the truth for ourselves-I mean we’re the ones who have to finally decide whose voice is that of the Shepard-or if there is a Shephard at all for that matter. But the answer to the the second part of your question is yes, absolutely, Catholics believe that the church is the “pillar and foundation of truth” as per 1Tim 3:15 rather than scripture or anything else.

Joe, I’ve done my best. I’d like to convince you that God exists and that He is love and that “All shall be well” in the end as Julian of Norwich, a Catholic mystic of the 13th or 14th century was shown. That’s the heart of the gospel. But I’m pretty lame at it all and only God does the convincing anyway so I’ll just say I hope you and your gf have a good time together and that all will be well for you.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Joe, Just one thought. I notice that in your responses, everything is geared to why not. Look for why. I will keep you in sincere prayer.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[IrishJoe]

Deacon Ed B, I see what you are saying but my why not stems from my disagreement of the Church’s 'that’s why’s

 

[michaelcollins]

Deacon Ed B, I see what you are saying but my why not stems from my disagreement of the Church’s 'that’s why’s

If God is love why would she be involved in all this war, murder etc. I dont know but perhaps thats how men of the time behaved? the catholic church I am a peart of has 2 basic commandmnets, love god and love the neighbor as thyself and forgive, and whatever you do for the least of mine you have done for me, well that sounds like I’ve broken it down to 3. anyway, the focus is on our relationship with a god of love. When we analize God as we are doing here through man’s eyes god tends to have man’s faults. maybe all of our intereaction with God has been limited by our ability to understand God and if we were more advanced God would deal with us in a more advanced way.

 

[IrishJoe]

If God is love why would she be involved in all this war, murder etc. I dont know but perhaps thats how men of the time behaved? the catholic church I am a peart of has 2 basic commandmnets, love god and love the neighbor as thyself and forgive, and whatever you do for the least of mine you have done for me, well that sounds like I’ve broken it down to 3. anyway, the focus is on our relationship with a god of love. When we analize God as we are doing here through man’s eyes god tends to have man’s faults. maybe all of our intereaction with God has been limited by our ability to understand God and if we were more advanced God would deal with us in a more advanced way.

that’s my problem with it… its not that simple.

 

[michaelcollins]

that’s my problem with it… its not that simple.

yes, but it is, we are not capable of dealing with God on God’s level, we deal with God on man’s level and therefore we attribute to God mans faults.

Have you not heard the old adage man created God in mans image? There is some truth to the statement. For instance for the sake of argument lets say that in order to save us Jesus had to die on a cross-that there was a scientific rule attributed to higher beings that required this, yet we could not undrstand that rule, not saying there is just that we have such limited viewpoints based on where what how we understand things. How does a superior being interact with a creation like us? Especially in our early years- take John and revelation, what if the visions in revelations had to do with modern armies, jets, rockets atomic weapons-what understanding would John have had?

How much have we advanced from John on issues of morality? I would say not much, therefore, how does God communicate with us-with difficulty, we dont listen well.

 

[brigid12]

Remember, the Sacraments are at Masses that have numerous abuses, too. Especially, in the Catholic Church. (I converted from Anglo-Catholicism because, tho’ there were many things I liked there, the Episcopal church was not teaching as Our Lord requested and had broken Apostolic Succession, thereby losing Sacraments. I also realized that I needed to learn obedience to Our Lord and could do that best by learning obedience to the Holy Father.) Think of going to church as where He heals (even psychologically and spiritually) those who need it - all of us. Some hospitals are nicer than others but most are valid hospitals. When you get to Mass, make sure you’re a little early so you can get on your knees and pray for the Holy Spirit to help you see Christ in those who seem maddening to you. Ask your guardian angel daily for his help there, too. Avail yourself of Confession so that you can receive the graces that He wants to give you in the Eucharist. He loves you so much!!!

 

[IrishJoe]

Remember, the Sacraments are at Masses that have numerous abuses, too. Especially, in the Catholic Church. (I converted from Anglo-Catholicism because, tho’ there were many things I liked there, the Episcopal church was not teaching as Our Lord requested and had broken Apostolic Succession, thereby losing Sacraments. I also realized that I needed to learn obedience to Our Lord and could do that best by learning obedience to the Holy Father.) Think of going to church as where He heals (even psychologically and spiritually) those who need it - all of us. Some hospitals are nicer than others but most are valid hospitals. When you get to Mass, make sure you’re a little early so you can get on your knees and pray for the Holy Spirit to help you see Christ in those who seem maddening to you. Ask your guardian angel daily for his help there, too. Avail yourself of Confession so that you can receive the graces that He wants to give you in the Eucharist. He loves you so much!!!

where to begin… 1) if the church cannot keep its own house in order who is it to be telling people what to do.

1. obeying a man would be a lot different to obeying God. My experience of ‘papal obedience’ recently has been groups of people attempting to lawyer their way into getting latin mases and telling people of ‘the popes intentions’ Last time I checked* il papa *was a highly intelligent, articulate man, fluent in several languages.
2. I would have to belive in chirst to pray to him and I dont see how kneeling is a requirement for prayer.
3. Again to obtain confession I would have to express a genuine disire to be forgiven and actually belvie in the sarcarament which considering how I am questioning of the church I dont think I do.

 

[brigid12]

where to begin… 1) if the church cannot keep its own house in order who is it to be telling people what to do.

The Church is not only on earth, but the part on earth that we can see was founded by Christ, who through the successor of Peter, teaches.

1. obeying a man would be a lot different to obeying God. My experience of ‘papal obedience’ recently has been groups of people attempting to lawyer their way into getting latin mases and telling people of ‘the popes intentions’ Last time I checked* il papa *was a highly intelligent, articulate man, fluent in several languages.

When you are obeying the Pope (and those in union with him), you are obeying God. Don’t pay attention to others who irritate you (unless you recognize Christ in their words). Just silently pray for them and for yourself.

1. I would have to belive in chirst to pray to him and I dont see how kneeling is a requirement for prayer.

#1 Scripture, His written Word, uses the words for prostration and for kneeling at some points - since you respect the Holy Father, try reading Spirit of the Liturgy. It’s very learned and helpful.
#2 No, you don’t have to fully believe in Christ in order to pray to Him. He just needs a tiny invitation to come help you. Just try - if for no other reason than, “It (Catholic Christianity) might be true”.

1. Again to obtain confession I would have to express a genuine disire to be forgiven and actually belvie in the sarcarament which considering how I am questioning of the church I dont think I do.

Imperfect contrition is totally valid for confession (see #2 in question 3.). Just admit to Jesus how you feel. Be honest with Him. Then, admit that He might know better than you.

I am praying for your confusion, uncertainty, the interview, irritations (btw, humility helps a lot with those, I’m finding ) and your immortal soul.

 

[brigid12]

I don’t know exactly why, but in prayer about you I keep having the thought that you would benefit by learning to practice the Liturgy of the Hours . You know, the book called Christian Prayer in Catholic bookstores?