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Malachi4U
Guest
A non-denominational denomination coworker of mine a few weeks ago told me she has ‘spirituality’ and does not believe in ‘religion’ since it is false and man made?:whacky: First time I’ve heard that one.
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Liberian
Guest
Genesis,
I can’t speak for the origins, but a rather good (in my Protestant adolescent opinion of the time) Christian musician in the 1970’s named Scott Wesley Brown had a single and an album titled “I’m Not Religious–I Just Love the Lord.”
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Maccabees
Guest
This notion is just pure silly but like DON KING says only in AMERICA! The Bible is a relgious document written by men with the guidance of the holy spirit of course written to other men of the church. THe notion that the Bible fell out of the sky and dropped to mankind and everyone who picks it up has a divinely inspired interpretation with no need of creed, church or guidance is very dangerous and of course gnostic, The catholic religious community wrote the bible to a religion (Christiantiy which already existed) so taking it out of that religion and community takes it from the very root and context it was meant to exist in.
Once you interpret the religious document for yourself you have made up your own religion, of course one makes up one own commandments, dogma, creed and other beliefs b their own interpretation presto you have made your own man made religion as your beleifs did not come from the Christ founded church but your own man made interpretation.
By getting away from what they perceive as man made they throw the ancient church inspired by the Holy Spirit and substituted their own man made religion but they don’t get it. Only in America is this regarded as acceptable religion.
Once you interpret the religious document for yourself you have made up your own religion, of course one makes up one own commandments, dogma, creed and other beliefs b their own interpretation presto you have made your own man made religion as your beleifs did not come from the Christ founded church but your own man made interpretation.
By getting away from what they perceive as man made they throw the ancient church inspired by the Holy Spirit and substituted their own man made religion but they don’t get it. Only in America is this regarded as acceptable religion.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
I suppose if you are part of the one who wrote the book on the religion you would feel the way you do. That’s only natural. I assure you, these ideas are not a product of American invention. The European Christians are the ones who separated from Catholicism and once European immigrants came to America the religion naturally evolved into what it is today.
It’s also equally false to suggest that when someone interprets the Bible they are making up their own religion. They are simply using their God-given reasoning and intellligence to separate the wheat from the chaff. It’s easy to see the falsehood in the religious system as a whole. It’s really like the government. The bigger it gets, the less productive and qualitative it becomes. The same thing is true in the business world. Just look at the behemoth company UPS. They are too big.
It’s also equally erroneous to conclude that one makes up their own dogma, creed and what-not. That’s what is plain silly. If the church and/or pastor’s teaching doesn’t coincide with Scripture, then it is obviously false. Even you (hopefully) would agree with that. Tradition can’t go it alone. If a creed goes against Scripture it is false. If Scripture is the “rule to measure by”, then what other rule is needed?
Peace…
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reen12
Guest
Bless you, ahimsaman72.
I had composed a reply, as well, then erased it.
Thanks for addressing the issue. I didn’t have
the strength, today.
Quote: ahimsaman72
I had composed a reply, as well, then erased it.
Thanks for addressing the issue. I didn’t have
the strength, today.
Quote: ahimsaman72
reen12
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Philthy
Guest
If you are honest with yourself you will come to grips with the reality that “following God’s word” means following your particular interpretation of God’s word. God’s word is by no means a clear rule book for all the moral situations humans will encounter until the second coming. Gods word has not produced clarity and unity among those who attempt to use it as their guide. For example, considerable variation exists on these topics:
How do we know which books belong in the bible?
How do we know there is no further Scripture to come?
Should I be baptized?
Should I baptize my children?
Should I baptize my infant?
Is the eucharist symbolic or salvific?
Can a woman be a Pastor?
Can a homosexual be a Pastor?
Is homosexuality today, a sin?
Is abortion a sin?
Is artificial contraception a sin?
Can I lose my salvation?
Do I need to continue to confess my sins in order for them to be forgiven?
Please feel free to answer yes or no for each based on the word of God as you understand it. I guarantee you you will be challenged and refuted by others with the word of God as their guide. And also, please note: whether you are comfortable agreeing or disagreeing with the interpretations of others is irrelevant…I want to know how you deal with the reality of various contradictory interpretations scripture while at the same time claim that “I …see no problem with just following God’s word”. It is important because once you acknowledge that Gods word can be interpreted to mean contradictory things, what you really end up saying is that you see no problem doing whatever you believe is correct, even if God’s word was meant to teach the very opposite.
You are correct, there will only be one religion in Heaven. The question is does it matter which religion you practice here on earth? Does your interpretation of Gods word matter or does everyone get an A for effort and automatically go to heaven?
Jesus Christ is our High Priest and Paschal Lamb for all eternity.
You are correct, however, that no need for sacraments will exist any more - nor will they be available to those who should have taken advantage of them while they were…
Peace,
PHil
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reen12
Guest
quote: Philthy
Says who, Philthy?
The Jesus of the Gospels is unrecognizable, by the time
**Saul got through giving us his thoughts, IMHO.**
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reen12
Guest
quote: Philthy
The Jesus of the Gospels is unrecognizable, by the time
Saul finishes giving us his thoughts, IMHO.
But then, Saul is considered a legitimate interpreter of
God’s word, right?
reen12
Says who, Philthy?
The Jesus of the Gospels is unrecognizable, by the time
Saul finishes giving us his thoughts, IMHO.
But then, Saul is considered a legitimate interpreter of
God’s word, right?
reen12
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Bless you my friend. It is a great burden to sift through the chaff in a religion. One has to think that if it was meant for there to be a running list of do’s and don’ts and must know material that one finally ends up in desperate need of a counselor from the mental breakdown.
Every time I look at a religion that is fractured (Christianity, Buddhism, for example) I marvel at it. I think of the possible use of it all. What is the use of it? Does it get us nearer to God? Or does it simply erode our passion for Him?
Peace, my beloved friend and sojourner…
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cheddarsox
Guest
Saul’s original intent was to destroy Christianity, and that is exactly what he accomplished, he just did it from the inside, rather than the outside where he first began.quote: Philthy
Says who, Philthy?
The Jesus of the Gospels is unrecognizable, by the time
Saul finishes giving us his thoughts, IMHO.
But then, Saul is considered a legitimate interpreter of
God’s word, right?
reen12
cheddar
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ahimsaman72
Guest
What you have shown is that the Bible in itself doesn’t answer all the questions about the Christian religion. It wasn’t meant to. It’s design was to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. That’s my take on it. Christ never said - “write this down”. What He did say was, “Go ye into all the world…”. That was His last command (according to Scripture).
I don’t believe that gospel has anything to do with anything you wrote down here. I could add lists upon lists of questions that the Bible doesn’t elaborate on.
Is it a sin to smoke?
Is it a sin to eat pork?
Can I marry my cousin?
Can a woman wear pants?
Do I have to look like a Sunday Christian?
Should I cut my hair?
Can I have a beard?
Are cars and electricity sinful?
Can a man be a housewife?
Now, if you ask me (which you didn’t) if God wanted us to know all these things and be sure of them - then there’s no way He would leave it in the hands of mere mortals like us. I know all the arguments for Christ working through Peter and his successors.
It still doesn’t make sense. If those things you mentioned above were so important then Christ Himself would have spoken about them and made those points clear.
If I were God I would not leave a man in charge (or a woman).
I might also add that sermons and words spoken by Christ are not at all clear sometimes - not the way they were collected and written down. I would imagine that many of Christ’s words and sermons were distorted or lost.
Peace…
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Maccabees
Guest
Nope the non-denom syndrome going on America started here in the good ol USA and is strongest here and when its found elsewhere we exported it there. During the Initial Reformation they did not break away everyperson for themselves but rather sought to set up a Reformed Catholic Church they broke away in large groups with king, queens and the whole government with their religion to boot. When they broke away they took the whole country or a good part of it with them sometimes multiple countries. No one initially broke away to find a church in ones garage. American indivividualism plays a big part in the mentatlity of not needing a church alltogether or starting one of many thousand non-denoms. Granted Europe started the break but we made it much worse. In Europe you typically have a state sponsored church and the catholic church and the other denoms typically struggle to survive lately America has been exporting the non-denoms and supporting them financially but its an american disease we exported and if it catches on its our fault.
ITs niave to think by using only one’ own intelligence that you can entirely separate the wheat and chaff in your spare time reading the Bible the trintiy took 650 years to figure out in a community consisting of many bishops and councils.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
You, however, are not God. God knows what He is doing. How are we to answer these questions, and to know what God wants?
God is truth. He “wants” (but more accurately stated is the definition of) the truth, and for this truth to be practiced. He wants us to know whether to smoke Pot or not, among everything else on your list, because He is truth and He can “settle” for nothing less.
Interpreting the Bible privately by it’s very definition produces different interpretations. God is however truth. There is only one truth. Any interpretation other than the correct one falls short of and is not truth.
You are stuck thinking in human terms. God did not leave men in charge. He left Himself in charge, working through men through the Holy Spirit. It is by this that the Church can tell us which interpretation of Scripture is truth.
Tell me what I mean by this sentence:
“I never said you were stupid.”
You can’t, unless I tell you. Even in a context, there is only so far you can interpret it without opening yourself up to error. Context can help, but not in every case.
The truth is that that sentence could mean:
“I never said you were stupid.”
“I never said you were stupid.”
“I never said you were stupid.”
“I never said you were stupid.”
“I never said you were stupid.”
Even a context might only limit the choices to two or three possible interpretations. God is truth, though, and therefore would not leave it to us to make such a mistake. It makes infinitely more sense for Him to do as He has, and left a man in charge with the guidance of His Holy Spirit than it would to do anything else. Saying that interpretations are open is denying the very nature of God.
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Little_Mary
Guest
But we’re not in heaven yet. We are here on earth . We need direction and guidelines and that is what Jesus gave us, which later became what we call the Catholic shurch.
It makes no sense to me that God would just plop us down here and leave us to our own resources. The Catholic church is the leader and teacher.
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Little_Mary
Guest
If all we need is the bible, then why didn’t Jesus say so?
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cathgal
Guest
counterattack: IF you FOLLOW Jesus and His Word, you would have a religion.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
I wasn’t speaking of non-denoms. We were talking about people “going it alone” in their Christianity, which includes all denoms of people. Many have left the Anglican, Baptist and Methodist churches because of the gross negligence of their respective churches.
As I stated already, once the immigrants came here to America (to escape the tyrannical rule of their respective former countries) Christianity naturally EVOLVED into what it is today. It is terribly naive to think that any religion is static. It isn’t. Religion is like the people who follow it. People change. Their religion changes. It really is a natural thing.
One can very well find the Christ of the Bible and the message He gave to humanity. That message is to love others and yourself. One doesn’t live in a vaccuum. Someone secluded from society and not introduced to Christianity and reading the Bible might not figure out the Trinity. Does that change the God of the Trinity? Does that change the Son of the Trinity? No.
By the way, I don’t know of anyone who started a protestant church in their garage. Their living room, maybe, yes. But, wait, wasn’t that like the new believers in Christ in the first century? Didn’t they meet in homes. Lydia had people in her home to worship together. Why doesn’t that fit into your picture perfect postcard of organized Christianity?
Peace…
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ahimsaman72
Guest
I never thought I was God. I hope he does. I would think He would let us know without a doubt what He wants. Don’t you give directions to your children? I want Jack to sit down. Jack hears and chooses to obey or disobey. At least Jack was told what was expected. He didn’t have to wonder.
If He doesn’t want us to smoke pot, why doesn’t he say so? If it is really that important why didn’t He spell it out for future generations? How do you find out what He wants? Do you pray and listen for an audible voice? How do you decide what is God’s will?
You have said God is truth already. What is your point? God is truth, however, is He knowable? Can you know the truth? Is it by observation that you know? Is it by prayer? Here we are distinguishing between conventional truth (relative truth) and absolute truth. That’s an important distinction. So, God can be termed as “absolute truth” and your (or my) interpretation is “relative truth”. Sometimes we can find the absolute, sometimes it is not so easy.
I hate to sound crass here, but I am human, therefore I think in human terms. “I think, therefore I am”. No, Catholics have repeatedly told me that Peter was left in charge and is in fact the “Vicar of Christ” on earth. That’s pretty clear to me. My whole point is that you can’t trust humans. Honestly, can’t you see this?
Why trust a mortal with immortal principles of conduct? Why entrust your creation to a fisherman who denied Christ three times?
Yes, yes, working through men through the Holy Spirit. The problem is that every church in America can say their pastor or church is being led by the Holy Spirit. Does that make it so?
If the Holy Spirit’s presence were observable and verifiable it would be easy to tell. However, we are not speaking of a physical object are we?
But He has left us to make that mistake. The differing opinions in the Christian faith are evidence of this. No, it doesn’t make sense to leave a man in charge who was a illiterate, rebellious fisherman.
Peace…
D
Davethewave
Guest
If one is to say “I just follow Jesus and His word” but they also say “I have no religion” then they contradict themself in the same sentance, Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 and 19 “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” These passages both show that Peter is the Pope of the Holy Catholic church, and it shows that the Holy Catholic church is what Jesus called “My church” it also shows that Peter and the future popes have papal Infallibility. So if one truly follows Jesus and His word, then they will know that the Catholic church is His word.
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reen12
Guest
quote:** Philthy**
You think it’s “niave”…I think it essential.
When the young man asked:
“What shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
it took Jesus less than a minute to respond.
When a famous Hassidic rebbe was asked to
summarize the Torah, while standing on one foot,
he said:
“What is hateful to you, do not do to another.”
It’s the wheat/chaff separators who’ve complicated things, IMHO.
They put me in mind of no one so much as the Pharisees:
“You have burdened My people with laws of your own
making…”
reen12
Again, says who, Philthy?
You think it’s “niave”…I think it essential.
When the young man asked:
“What shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
it took Jesus less than a minute to respond.
When a famous Hassidic rebbe was asked to
summarize the Torah, while standing on one foot,
he said:
“What is hateful to you, do not do to another.”
It’s the wheat/chaff separators who’ve complicated things, IMHO.
They put me in mind of no one so much as the Pharisees:
“You have burdened My people with laws of your own
making…”
reen12
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