I Have to Show you Guys This

[Marc_Anthony]

What on Earth has happened to society?

So I’m on another forum where people writing novels ask actual questions for other people to answer so they could use the info in their book. One person (who shall not be named) was asking about transgender therapy, and in the commenting section I saw this gem:

[In response to somebody asking why transgener therapy was necessary] Because you can’t begin the process of gender reassignment without jumping through a lot of really stupid hoops. The idea is to make sure that it’s “what they really want” but really all it does is make it harder for transgender people to match their outsides to how they feel on the inside.

Really it’s the same reason many young women can’t get their tubes tied without major medical reason. Because they “might change their minds.” Never mind that getting one’s tubes tied or having gender reassignment surgery is major surgery and utterly life changing and no one with half a brain would do those things unless that really is what they want.

Also kind of funny considering they don’t have much issue assigning gender to infants without their choice in the matter, but they won’t let an adult choose their own gender?

WHHHHAAAAAT???

I’m…I don’t even…WHAT???

The mindset behind such a quote is just staggering. And it’s written with the expectation that people will agree with it!

This statement:

Also kind of funny considering they don’t have much issue assigning gender to infants without their choice in the matter, but they won’t let an adult choose their own gender?

ASSIGNING gender to infants???

Sometimes I take a step back and wonder how we got here…

 

[LilyM]

What on Earth has happened to society?

So I’m on another forum where people writing novels ask actual questions for other people to answer so they could use the info in their book. One person (who shall not be named) was asking about transgender therapy, and in the commenting section I saw this gem:

WHHHHAAAAAT???

I’m…I don’t even…WHAT???

The mindset behind such a quote is just staggering. And it’s written with the expectation that people will agree with it!

This statement:

Also kind of funny considering they don’t have much issue assigning gender to infants without their choice in the matter, but they won’t let an adult choose their own gender?

ASSIGNING gender to infants???

Sometimes I take a step back and wonder how we got here…

It does sometimes happen if a child is born intersexed - surgery may be performed on the infant to remove visible organs of one or other gender.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

It does sometimes happen if a child is born intersexed - surgery may be performed on the infant to remove visible organs of one or other gender.

Even then the statement is ridiculous. These people are adults. They can’t “choose” a sex. They ARE a sex. As an infant the sex is not clear so the doctors make a judgment call. It sounds weird that the mother’s consent and (name removed by moderator)ut isn’t necessary, but neverthless the reasoning is different.

It’s just such a bizarre post in general.

 

[LilyM]

Even then the statement is ridiculous. These people are adults. They can’t “choose” a sex. They ARE a sex. As an infant the sex is not clear so the doctors make a judgment call. It sounds weird that the mother’s consent and (name removed by moderator)ut isn’t necessary, but neverthless the reasoning is different.

It’s just such a bizarre post in general.

And what ‘sex’ does an adult have whose reproductive organs, chromosomes and hormones are truly ambiguous - ie that adult is intersexed?

And why can a gender not be ‘assigned’ to an intersexed adult, if there is no problem doing so to an intersexed child? The fact that it is an adult making their own choice of gender instead of a child having it made for them shouldn’t matter.

The idea that they cannot is as odd to me as it would be to say on the one hand that parents can have their children baptised but on the other that a person whose parents have not had it baptised as a child cannot choose to be baptised of its own will as an adult.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

And what ‘sex’ does an adult have whose reproductive organs, chromosomes and hormones are truly ambiguous - ie that adult is intersexed?

[To get this out of the way, I actually doubt the original poster in that particular thread was referring to this anyway. But since an interesting discussion has started, let’s keep going.]

From the Catholic perspective: First of all, a DNA check would be ordered to see if it is indeed the chromosomes that do not identify the sex. If that is the case, we have a unique problem.

From my understanding of Church teaching such a person could probably choose to identify himself with whatever sex he or she felt more comfortable with, but since the sex truly is ambiguous would most likely not be allowed to have surgery since we don’t know for sure what would be bodily mutilation and what would be corrective.

And why can a gender not be ‘assigned’ to an intersexed adult, if there is no problem doing so to an intersexed child? The fact that it is an adult making their own choice of gender instead of a child having it made for them shouldn’t matter.

The idea that they cannot is as odd to me as it would be to say on the one hand that parents can have their children baptised but on the other that a person whose parents have not had it baptised as a child cannot choose to be baptised of its own will as an adult.

Baptism is not a bodily mutilation and cannot even theoretically have negative effects. Trandgender surgery on the other hand should probably only be performed if it can truly be said that a mutation or genetic illness or some such thing has occurred and the correct sex can truly be known. I have a feeling that an adult will feel much more entitled to “choose” their own sex rather than “figure out” their own sex. Your sex is an unalienable attribute, not a choice.

 

[Hokomai]

“Gender” and “sex” are not the same things. “Sex” is biologically determined. “Gender” is a societal recognition. That is that the person the OP was responding to was talking about. Unfortunately these words are in flux because prudes have started saying ‘gender’ when they mean ‘sex’ because ‘sex’ also means sexual intercourse. So it is important whenever you are about to get upset in a discussion on these issues to tease out what people mean. The people who read or study a lot in ‘gender’ studies it is an obvious use of a technical term. To we normal people it is not. Children at birth have a sex, but society assigns them a gender. This is universal in human societies, and I think in most mammalian species. A biologically female cow that acts like a bull will be responded to by the rest of the herd as if it is a bull.

 

[CaptFun]

It does sometimes happen if a child is born intersexed - surgery may be performed on the infant to remove visible organs of one or other gender.

You may be making sense of the idiocy. When I saw Marc Anthony’s post I took that line as being … the attending Doctors at the birth wrote down a sex on the birth certificate.

Without WAITING to see what the child wanted to be! < :whacky: I know. But I’ve heard this sort of argument made to justify the delaying of Baptism, so … that’s what my first impression of this take was. Mean old society pushing a gender on someone!

The “God doesn’t know what He’s doing - here’s a better idea …” school has been around since Eve and Adam.

Or is that “God knows what He’s doing … He is repressing you!” with Adam and Eve?

I can imagine the demons laughing to themselves and asking

“Is there anything so stupid that we can’t get these people to DO IT?” :takeoff:

and realizing

“NO! There’s NOT. AND we can go further! :jrbirdman: They will then evangelize about the nonsense with zeal enough to make John the Baptist look like a wallflower!” :hey_bud:

 

[cjforJesus]

Testicular feminization occurs in about 1 of every 20,000 births. The condition is a physical aberation where the developing male fetus fails to respond to the androgen hormone and therefore often has both sex characteristics or appears female,Sad to say it is a physical condition probably having both a genetic and environmental cause.Hormone interaction plays a key roll in the developement of sexual characteristics . How wonderfully we are made! God does not makes mistakes but the sins of the father can be visited on the children,that is something causing genetic mutation such as chemicals may cause a child to be abnormal.

 

[MarcoPolo]

why can a gender not be ‘assigned’ to an intersexed adult

The quote in the OP does not say “assigned” but refers to “gender reassignment without jumping through a lot of really stupid hoops” — meaning sex-change if I read that right. Not an intersexed adult. The person quoted in the OP is mad that it’s too “difficult” to get a sex change apparently, conflating the difficulty in a hermaphroditic infant with an adult sex change, i.e. “reassignment.”

 

[LilyM]

The quote in the OP does not say “assigned” but refers to “gender reassignment without jumping through a lot of really stupid hoops” — meaning sex-change if I read that right. Not an intersexed adult. The person quoted in the OP is mad that it’s too “difficult” to get a sex change apparently, conflating the difficulty in a hermaphroditic situation with a sex change “reassignment.”

The last paragraph of the quote (which OP bolded) does indeed talk about assigning, not re-assigning, gender to infants, and expresses incredulity on the point, as if gender never is assigned to infants. I merely pointed out that it sometimes is.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The OP actually has two quotes, if you read it carefully. The second quote (which OP bolded) does indeed talk about assigning, not re-assigning, gender to infants, and expresses a belief that gender never is assigned to infants. I pointed out that it sometimes is.

I read both quotes. That’s why I said the quoted person was conflating 2 separate issues.

 

[LilyM]

I read both quotes. That’s why I said the quoted person was conflating 2 separate issues.

They are indeed different, yes. Where did I say or imply that they were not?

 

[TimothyH]

“Gender” and “sex” are not the same things. “Sex” is biologically determined. “Gender” is a societal recognition. That is that the person the OP was responding to was talking about. Unfortunately these words are in flux because prudes have started saying ‘gender’ when they mean ‘sex’ because ‘sex’ also means sexual intercourse. So it is important whenever you are about to get upset in a discussion on these issues to tease out what people mean. The people who read or study a lot in ‘gender’ studies it is an obvious use of a technical term. To we normal people it is not. Children at birth have a sex, but society assigns them a gender. This is universal in human societies, and I think in most mammalian species. A biologically female cow that acts like a bull will be responded to by the rest of the herd as if it is a bull.

The idea that gender is completely determined by socialization and not intrinsic to males and females is not universal.

Among Catholics especially, and Christians in General, belief in God having designed men and womane with an intrinsic mansculinity and femininity is part of revealed truth.

-Tim-