I have true Peace

[reen12]

Dear reggie,

First off, a Noahide does not have to keep the Mosaic Law,
but rather accepts the God of Israel and follows the
7 Noahide commandments.

Secondly, you state:

quote reggie

When I sin, I do turn to Jesus, in the Sacrament of reconciliation. I do say a prayer for mercy and forgiveness, we call it penance.

Well, I called it the sacrament of penance for 50 years,
reggie. The rigors of the sacramental system are not
unknown to me.
And, in a sense, you’ve made my point, I think.

quote: reggie

“…we call it penance.”

I call it a legalistic approach to forgiveness from Christ.

Do you recall the days when people spoke of a “perfect
act of contrition?” A person on the verge of death,
having sinned mortally, was invitied to tell God h/she
was sorry, with no tinge of the fear of hell in sight.
[hence, “perfect” contrition.]

I was entranced by this concept 47 years ago, when
it was first proposed for my belief. [If you’ve
never heard of it, it may be a generational thing.]

The sacramental system is beautifully stated,
painfully logical, and totally irrelevant, in my view.
While I respect those who hold this system,
I do not share it.

quote:** reggie**

I find it ironic that you then say you must turn to Judaism, which was extremely legalistic.

I, too, find it ironic that you fail to see the parallels
between the legalism of RC theology and that of
the Pharisees of Jesus’ time, whom He upbraided
for adding to the burden His people had to carry with
their interpretations of the Mosaic Law.

quote:** reggie**

So, it is not your faith that helps determine if your belief is the truth, it is your Behavior and attitude. How ironic is that?

Not my behavior and attitude, reggie. The behavior
and attitude of those who make the claim: “This is
the truth.”
And here I was, thinking that it was Jesus Who said:
I am the Way and the Truth and the Life.

A careful reading of my tag line will show that I employ
the term “help them to decide.” There is a difference,
reggie.

The RCC brings billions of people to God, through the
rolling centuries. Despite consternation, apologetic
manuals, and parsing “invincible ignorance”, so do
many, many other Christian denominations.

It becomes more risible, to me, with each passing year,
that “belief” seems to trump behavior for so many.

“When did we give You food, or clothes or shelter?”
“When you did this for the least of My brethern, you
did it for Me. Come into the joy of My Kingdom.”

reen12

 

[deb1]

Hello Reen,

I am just coming into the church so I can not comment on your statement about the Catholic church so many years ago. I do know that the most legalistic church that I ever attended was a Baptist one. If you weren’t at church everytime the doors opened, you were judged as being less then Christian. That meant twice on Sundays, once on Wednesday and every single church function. Alcohol drinking was a sin. Our pastor said that men should only have short, short hair(how Native Americans were supposed to fit their culture into this version of Christianity I don’t know) could be Christian and dresses on women was strongly encouraged. Fantasy novels and role playing video games was considered opening yourself to the devil. Rock music, even Christian rock music was bad. The amazing part is that this pastor strongly believed in faith alone and would have been shocked if anyone had called him legalistic.(He was a very sweet man by the way)

After coming from such an experience, I found the Catholic church very liberating. You mean I only have to show up once a weeK? Wow! The bible can be read in context as a whole, not a verse picked out that will contradict the whole text? Wow! An occasional beer isn’t getting me to hell? Again Wow!!

Maybe I am an odd person, but I found Catholism to be much less legalistic then Protestantism. My experince could have been because I was attending a fundamentalist church, though. I don’t want to lump all Protestants together.

 

[reen12]

Hi, deb1,

I rejoiced in your post!

Not 10 minutes ago, I was thinking to myself: Mine
has been an RCC experience. I’ll bet some other
denominations are equally experienced as “legalistic”.

quote: deb1

I am just coming into the church so I can not comment on your statement about the Catholic church so many years ago. I do know that the most legalistic church that I ever attended was a Baptist one. If you weren’t at church everytime the doors opened, you were judged as being less then Christian. That meant twice on Sundays, once on Wednesday and every single church function. Alcohol drinking was a sin. Our pastor said that men should only have short, short hair(how Native Americans were supposed to fit their culture into this version of Christianity I don’t know) could be Christian and dresses on women was strongly encouraged. Fantasy novels and role playing video games was considered opening yourself to the devil. Rock music, even Christian rock music was bad. The amazing part is that this pastor strongly believed in faith alone and would have been shocked if anyone had called him legalistic.(He was a very sweet man by the way)

After coming from such an experience, I found the Catholic church very liberating. You mean I only have to show up once a weeK? Wow! The bible can be read in context as a whole, not a verse picked out that will contradict the whole text? Wow! An occasional beer isn’t getting me to hell? Again Wow!!

Maybe I am an odd person, but I found Catholism to be much less legalistic then Protestantism. My experince could have been because I was attending a fundamentalist church, though. I don’t want to lump all Protestants together

I’m happy for you, that you have found a home in
Catholicism, as odd as that may seem.

The train of thought I had a few minutes before I read
your post, was this:

All denominations give me the pip. Yet the Church needs
some outward presence in the world, so, fine. Let
those who can tolerate what I see as the distortion
of Christ’s love, in the various denominations, bear with that.

I’ll just drop off clothes at any church’s clothing drive,
help out the local Christian rescue mission as I can,
follow the spiritual and corporal works of mercy as
God gives me the grace to do so, while thanking Christians
for having denominations, churches [to baptize, marry,
bury the dead].

I simply want no part of it. I’m not nearly hardy enuff,
and have too developed a sense of the absurb, to
tolerate the nuttiness, as I see it.

Again, thanks for your post, deb1,

reen12

 

[Ignatius]

kaycee:

Rom 5:1
"Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. "

As a former Catholic having been baptized and confirmed, my peace with God was conditional on my staying in a state of grace.

I have true Peace knowing my salvation is not of myself and has been secured by GOD.

Think about this. 1 Cor 27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

How could Paul possibly become a castaway? doesn’t Paul have ‘true Peace knowing his salvation is not of himself and has been secured by GOD?’

 

[Mickey]

Hebrews 3:12-14. Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

 

[kaycee]

I. Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification

James 2:24 - the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.” Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.” To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace.Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

We are certainly created to do good works, but not to merit salvation. Eph 2:8-10

Ro 3:24 - "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; " a gift, no works.

Ro 3:28 - "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." concept of Faith alone is clear.

Ro 5:1 - “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” justified, past tense.

Ro 5:9 - “Much more then, **having now been justified ** by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.”
no works here!

Ro 8:30 - “and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”

Romans 11:6: “And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace.” Once any kind of works is introduced, it is no longer grace! Grace is unmerited favor!

1Co 6:11 - "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Ga 3:11 - Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

Ga 3:24 - “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.” again Faith alone.

Ga 5:4 - “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” Its either Grace thru faith alone or works, never both.

Tit 3:7 - so that being **justified by His grace ** we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

 

[kaycee]

Ignatius:

Think about this. 1 Cor 27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

How could Paul possibly become a castaway? doesn’t Paul have ‘true Peace knowing his salvation is not of himself and has been secured by GOD?’

Phil 1:21 “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.”

Paul seems to be sure what his status is.

 

[RyanL]

kaycee,

I think we may be talking past eachother. Could you please tell me which of these Catholic doctrines from the Council of Trent that you disagree with?

**The Council of Trent
****The Sixth Session **

**JUSTIFICATION CANONS **

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

God bless you and keep you,
RyanL

P.S.,
I’ll post more if you would like…

 

[Lillith]

Superstar905:

V. Jesus and Apostles Teach that Works are Necessary for Justification

Matt. 5:2-11 - Jesus’ teaching of the beatitudes goes beyond faith - being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. They are acts of the will that are necessary for a right relationship with God.

Matt. 5:16 - Jesus confirms this by teaching, “let your light shine before men that they may see your ‘good works’ and give glory to God.” Good works glorify God and increase our justification before the Father.

Matt. 5:39-42 - give your striker the other cheek, give away your cloak, and go with him two miles. This faith in action, not faith alone.

Matt. 5:44-47 - this means even loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us. Love is a good work, an act of the will.

Matt. 6:12 - forgive us our sins, not by how much faith we have, but as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Matt. 7:19-23 - just saying “Lord, Lord” and accepting Jesus as personal Savior is not enough. We must also bear the fruit of good works.

Matt. 19:16-22 - Jesus teaches the man to sell all he has and give it to the poor. It is not just about accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We also need good works by keeping Jesus’ commandments.

Matt. 22:39; Mark 12:31 - Jesus says You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love is a good work - an act of the intellect and will.

Mark 9:39 - Jesus said no one who does good works in His name will be able to soon after speak evil of Him. Good works justify us before God.

Luke 6:46-47 - the Lord asks us to do what he tells us, and that is to keep His commandments, not just “accept” Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Luke 6:20-38 - again, beatitudes, the love of enemies, giving to the needy, forgiving, bearing fruit - all these good works justify a man before God.

Luke 8:21 - Jesus says that His mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.

John 5:24 - note that “eternal life” here means sanctifying grace (the life of God within us). We can choose to fall from this grace.

John 5:36, 10:37-38 - Jesus emphasizes that His works testify to who He is. We must imitate Christ’s works to be more fully united with Him.

John 5:39-42 - knowing the Scriptures is not enough if you do not have love in your heart.

John 8:31-32 - Jesus requires works even from those who believe in Him. Mere belief is not enough.

John 13:34-35 - Jesus gives us a new commandment, that we love one another as He loves us. He commands love which is an act of our will.

John 14:15 - Jesus says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” This requires works, not just faith (and not faith alone).

John 14:21 – he who hears my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. This is doing good works for others.

John 15:8 – Jesus requires us to bear the good fruit of works if we are to be His disciples. These fruits are merits in Catholic teaching, all borne from God’s unmerited gift of grace.

John 15:10 - if you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, as I have kept the Father’s commandments.

John 15:12 - this is My commandment that you love one another as I have loved you. Love is both a cause and the fruit of our justification.

Rom. 12:10 - Paul commands us to love one another. Love is a good work, an act of the intellect and will, not just a feeling.

1 Cor. 3:8 – Paul teaches that he who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor.

1 Cor. 13:2 – Paul teaches that if our faith moves mountains, but we have not the works of love, we are nothing indeed.

1 Cor. 13:13 - abide in faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Love is the greatest work which justifies us (not faith, and most importantly, not faith alone!)

1 Tim. 6:18-19 - we are to do good and be rich in good works thus laying up a good foundation for a chance at eternal life.

Titus 1:16 - people claim to know God, but their deeds deny Him. Like Jesus, it is our works that testify to our faith in Christ.

1 John 2:3-5 - and by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. This requires good works, not faith alone.

1 John 3:23 - God’s commandment is to believe in His Son Jesus and love one another. Belief is not enough, but good works to perfect that belief.

1 John 4:7-21 - and this commandment we have from Him, that he who loves God should love his brother also. John gives us repeated exhortations to love one another.

1 John 5:2-3 - we know we love God and God’s children when we keep His commandments. We need to love which is manifested in good works and not faith alone. 2 John 6 - we must love one another and keep Jesus’ commandments. We must cooperate with Christ’s grace.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

Justification
by Jimmy Akin

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp

 

[kaycee]

Titus 3:8 - good deeds are excellent and profitable to men (just like the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Tim. 3:16). Good deeds further justify us before God. This verse should be contrasted with Titus 3:5, where we are not saved by works of righteousness “we have done.” As further discussed below, in this verse what “we have done” refers to a work of law or obligation for which we seek payment. But verse 5 also says the “washing of regeneration” in reference to baptism saves, which is a work of grace, for which we are rewarded by God in Christ. There is a distinction between “works of law or obligation” and “works of grace.” 1 Peter 2:7-8; John 3:36 - shows that belief in Jesus means obeying Jesus. Having faith means being faithful, which requires good works as well. Hence, obeying Jesus means doing works of love, not just having faith alone.

Ephesians 2:8-10: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God - not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

The sad fact is that verse 10 normally goes unquoted and it certainly should not, important as it is. Verse 10 provides the perfect balance of works and faith. It says that we have been created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Now, notice it does not say that good works created us in Christ Jesus! First comes the creation in Christ (salvation), then the good works. How sad it is when the order gets mixed up. God’s work in our lives will bring about good works, but to place the proverbial cart before the horse and make good works a prerequisite for salvation is to miss the whole point of salvation itself!

 

[Sarah_Jane]

Faith and Works
by Peggy Frye
forum.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=15029&postcount=2

 

[reen12]

Dear kaycee,

quote: kaycee

God’s work in our lives will bring about good works, but to place the proverbial cart before the horse and make good works a prerequisite for salvation is to miss the whole point of salvation itself!

Exactly.

Good works are the *fruit *of, not the prerequisite for, salvation.
And, in that, you can say: I have true Peace.

Tell me, will you kaycee, what role does repentance
play in salvation? Didn’t Jesus say: Even the just
man sins seven times a day" ?

Thanks,
reen12

 

[RyanL]

kaycee,

I was serious about my question in post #86. I really think this would help us reach a common understanding…

God bless,
RyanL

 

[reen12]

Hi, RyanL,

I think you’ve got a good idea in posting those canons
from Trent:

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

How is the word “merit” to be understood in this context?

[BTW, you asked me about the rabbi who converted to
the RCC. He was, I understand, the Chief Rabbi of
Rome, at one time. I did some reading, and found what
I expected to find. Judaic thought holds him guilty of
*Apostasy.]

Best,
reen12

 

[javelin]

Kaycee,

I think your logic here is flawed at one crucial step:

kaycee:

• No one comes to the Son unless he is drawn by the Father
• All that are drawn have heard and learned from the Father
• Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father come to the Son
• All that the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son.

You are assuming that all people whom God calls “learn from the Father”, and that all who hear the call also come. God wishes that all be saved, so He must call everyone. It is only those that respond to that call by turning to God who receive the grace that is everlasting friendship with God – His saving Grace.

This is the crux of the difference. We all believe that all good things are gifts from God (the result of freely given Grace), even faith. We all believe that our salvation is a gift, so we must not boast of it. We believe that Christ will not lose any who come to Him, but with a correct understanding. Note that “to lose something” implies it is by His action, or neglect, whereby the thing - us - is lost. This does not deny that man can turn by his own free will. These are not lost. These people left.

So, all that are called by God hear Him, but not all respond to that call. And not all that respond to that call by turning and walking toward God (by their will, but God’s strength) will persevere in the journey, for some will choose to turn away and follow the call of false gods, not by God’s choosing, but of their own free will. Some will repent and turn back to God while others will be lost forever.

If you believe in the predestination of the elect, then you must also believe that God created billions of people who never have any hope of salvation, because only a chosen few must be the “elect”. What joy and hope and peace is there in that message, for it leaves us only to hope that our name comes up in God’s “Salvation Lottery”. And how are we to have any knowledge of whether or not we are one of the “elect”? Love Him? Why? Serve Him? Why? Know Jesus even? Why bother? If we are in the “elect”, then we are heaven bound for sure, and if not, hell-bound for sure.

That is not the message of the Gospel.

The true Gospel message is that Christ came to Earth to establish a New Covenant in His Blood, and He calls all men to participate in that covenant. Those who commit themselves to God through His perfect covenant will receive by God’s promise the Grace needed to persevere in faith and good works. Those who spurn the covenant through disobedience (the Biblical antonym for belief) are also spurning the Grace that God offers for their own salvation. Those will be cut off and lose their salvation, not by God’s will, but by their own.

Peace,
javelin

 

[reen12]

Hi, Mickey,

Good grief. You’ve served it up on a platter:

**

Hebrews 3

For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

“…our first confidence firm to the end.” [con-fide, “with faith”]

In Him -not works, not dogmas, not credal statements - Him.
heart, with two Bayer asprin nearby, just in case my*
head starts to hurt.]

Maureen
didn’t mean to post this in bold, but I couldn’t get it
to do regular width
**

 

[kaycee]

RyanL:

kaycee,

I was serious about my question in post #86. I really think this would help us reach a common understanding…

God bless,
RyanL

From what i could make out thru the old english. It would appear I would agree.

 

[E.E.N.S]

reen12:

Hi, Mickey,

Good grief. You’ve served it up on a platter:

---

"…our first confidence firm to the end." [con-fide, "with faith"]

In Him -not works, not dogmas, not credal statements - Him.

---

heart, with two Bayer asprin nearby, just in case my
head starts to hurt.]

Maureen
didn’t mean to post this in bold, but I couldn’t get it
to do regular width

---

Yes, but the lukewarm will not remain in Him…
…how do you tell if one is lukewarm? By his fruits/works…the fruits do not make the tree, but they are the sign of whether the tree is good or bad - just like the works are not what get you into heaven, but without them the faith is dead and you will have no salvation.
Over and over again Christ tells us what we must do…
“…pick up your cross and follow in my footsteps…”
“…show mercy…”
etc, etc, etc…

 

[RyanL]

kaycee:

From what i could make out thru the old english. It would appear I would agree.

GOOD! So we can agree that salvation is by the grace of God alone, and there is nothing we could possibly do to work our way to heaven! Excellent. Never let it be said that you disagree with Catholics about everything.

Here’s some more info, also on Justification, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Please let me know if you agree (modern English ):

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself; (1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4.)

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.(Rom 3:21-26.)

God bless,
RyanL