I have true Peace

  • Thread starter Thread starter kaycee
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Code: 
 Eph 2:20 - having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone" 

The church is certainly the pillar and upholder of truth. Church = Body of believers.
Kaycee I believe every word you say here above yet I would have to add that the Church is the body of believers set up by Jesus Christ and the Gates of Hell wont let it fall.

“As Saint Ignatius said in the year 107 where there is Jesus Christ there is the Catholic Church”

I believe in the power of Jesus and his ability to maintain the Catholic Church for 2000 years, the idea of an invisible Church made up of differing doctrines was an innovation of the reformers as before everyone professed essentially the same Nicene Creed.

If not which Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth?

The Southern Baptist?, Calvary Chapel?
The Anglican?, Vineyard?
The Presbyterian? Iglesia Universal?
Or should I go to Reformed Baptist Church, is it the absolute truth?
I could go on and exceed my posting limit per post, but there is one truth it doesn’t contradict itself, so which Church is the fullness of truth?

I am not saying this to hurt your feelings, but we should all look for the absolute truth. If you have the absolute truth then you should feel free to look at history and unbiased outlooks on this. I do invite you to purchase early Christian writings and look not just from quotes, but everything in context and see for yourself.
When I was searching for truth I went and purchased early Christian writings from penguin press. www.penguin.com

God Bless in you faith journey,
Scylla
 
40.png
scylla:
Code: 
  I do invite you to purchase early Christian writings and look not just from quotes, but everything in context and see for yourself.
When I was searching for truth I went and purchased early Christian writings from penguin press. [www.penguin.com](http://www.penguin.com/)
 
God Bless in you faith journey,
Scylla
Click to expand...
Hi there Scylla… forgive me for cutting out a lot of your Post with which I agreed …the main that interests me is early Christian writings…I can get most books through Pauline Media here in Adelaide, South Australia. I do not have a credit card to purchase online. Could you give me the titles of these books please…I take it they are all Penguin Books?
I had problems accessing Penguin Site. I am also taking it you are not referrring to the Letters in The New Testament.

Thank you…regards…Barb
 
Eph 2:20 - having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone"
Click to expand...
The church is certainly the pillar and upholder of truth. Church = Body of believers.
Click to expand...
Kaycee I believe every word you say here above yet I would have to add that the Church is the body of believers set up by Jesus Christ and the Gates of Hell wont let it fall.
Click to expand...
“As Saint Ignatius said in the year 107 where there is Jesus Christ there is the Catholic Church”
Click to expand...
I certainly agree with Ignatius, however it seems you are reading a dark ages to current definition of “Catholic Church” into his quote. Certainly he would have no problem saying the church is the body of true believers and followers of Christ.
I believe in the power of Jesus and his ability to maintain the Catholic Church for 2000 years, the idea of an invisible Church made up of differing doctrines was an innovation of the reformers as before everyone professed essentially the same Nicene Creed.
Click to expand...
I surely believe the Nicene creed! We disagree on the definition of Church and the need for 100%doctrinal unity in ALL things. The vast majority of protestants agree on the major doctrinal points! The minor stuff is, well, minor stuff. God has faithfully kept his Church (the truly saved that confess Jesus)
If not which Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth?
Click to expand...
The Southern Baptist?, Calvary Chapel?
The Anglican?, Vineyard?
The Presbyterian? Iglesia Universal?
Or should I go to Reformed Baptist Church, is it the absolute truth?
Click to expand...
My absolute truth is the “God Breathed” scripture. The surface unity in the Catholic church has not kept it from minor disagreements within its walls, even major ones as well.
I am not saying this to hurt your feelings,
Click to expand...
I am drying my eyes as I type. 😉
but we should all look for the absolute truth. If you have the absolute truth then you should feel free to look at history and unbiased outlooks on this.
Click to expand...
It was much in part to historical study that convinced me to leave the Catholic church and embrace Sola Scriptura.
 
40.png
kaycee:
It was much in part to historical study that convinced me to leave the Catholic church and embrace Sola Scriptura.
Click to expand...
What were your sources?
 
Hi, reggie,

Would that I could be so blissfully unconfused as
the assured.

reen12
 
Hello BarbaraT, here is a link to Penguin in Australia, if you do not have a credit card and have no way of purchasing books easily, just PM me and I will be happy to send you one of mine.

penguin.com.au/

Early Christian Writings
This is a book on early Christian writings from about the year 100 and 200AD. A good way to see what the Christian mindset was back then.
I just suggest this since Penguin is a non-Catholic site and would like to present the most unbiased view on things.

Kaycee, I would really suggest you read books like the one suggested above, I have read quotes from people like William Webster and James White and it really seems to me that they mis-represent early Christian writings. I would read the books complete.
Also you might want to check out “THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH FROM CHRIST TO CONSTANTINE” Eusebius - Author

I too believe that Scripture is 100% true and can say that I believe in a unified doctrine along with my fellow Catholics all the rites of the Catholic Church. We may practice differently but we believe the same doctrine.
Of course there will be disagreements, but there is a unity of belief and doctrine. You might find a Catholic who doesn’t believe in a certain doctrine, but that doesn’t mean a disunity just a dissenting view. This is like finding a Christian who doesn’t believe in Revelation, does that mean that the Bible is wrong, or that they just have a dissenting view?

So I do agree with you that Scripture is 100% true, I just can’t agree with your interpretation of it. (symbolic communion as an example) Or else then I just pick and choose what I want to believe and go to whichever Church fits my interpretation, and I have been down that road before.

I truly believe you have true peace and I am truly happy for you, you might never agree with the Catholic Church, but you are still my sister in Christ.

God Bless
Scylla
 
40.png
kaycee:
It was much in part to historical study that convinced me to leave the Catholic church and embrace Sola Scriptura.
Click to expand...
Hi kaycee,

In your historical studies, surely you noticed that the false, man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura did not exist until the 16th century.
Also, it is not supported by Scripture itself.

God Bless.
 
40.png
Ignatius:
Hi kaycee,

In your historical studies, surely you noticed that the false, man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura did not exist until the 16th century.
Also, it is not supported by Scripture itself.

God Bless.
Click to expand...
The Bereans were commended in Acts 17:11, because “they examined the Scriptures daily whether these things were so,” Paul commends that; and he’s an Apostle! He speaks with the authority of the Savior Himself! And yet, even with that Apostolic authority, Paul commends them, because when they wanted to test what he was saying, they went to the written Scriptures to see if these things were so.

I Corinthians 4:6, Paul says, “Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us you might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.” Sola Scriptura!

Even our Lord Jesus Christ, when not appealing to His own inherent authority, clinched His arguments with His opponents by saying, “It stands written!” or “Have you not read” in the Bible? He said, “Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me.” John 5:39

Does the LORD ever use non Biblical “tradition” in a favorbale light? Does the LORD ever teach using good “tradition” to make a point?

The Scripture is God Breathed and apparently good enough for Jesus and the apostles! Why would i need another authority that is not God Breathed?
 
This book by Phil Schaff clearly has a strong anti-Catholic point of view. Try reading a different book to sort of balance out the views.

Here’s a link to the whole thing, if anyone wants to look over it. bible.ca/history/philip-schaff/
 
40.png
kaycee:
The Bereans were commended in Acts 17:11, because “they examined the Scriptures daily whether these things were so,” Paul commends that; and he’s an Apostle! He speaks with the authority of the Savior Himself! And yet, even with that Apostolic authority, Paul commends them, because when they wanted to test what he was saying, they went to the written Scriptures to see if these things were so.
Click to expand...
Why the Bereans rejected Sola Scriptura
by Steve Ray

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp
 
40.png
kaycee:
Does the LORD ever use non Biblical “tradition” in a favorbale light?
Click to expand...
Why, yes He does!

“The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you,” (Matt 23:2-3) The seat of Moses is never, ever, not even once mentioned in the Old Testament. It is a tradition, yet this was an accepted teaching about the authority of the Jewish leaders. Jesus Himself affirms this tradition! He tells the crowds to “practice and observe whatever they tell you.”
 
Matthew talks of Jesus fulfilling a prophesy. “And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled. ‘He shall be called a Nazarene.’” (Matt 2:23) This prophesy is found nowhere in the Old Testament. It is an oral tradition that carries the same weight as written tradition. It is accepted as just as authoritative as those prophesies that were written down.
 
40.png
kaycee:
The Bereans were commended in Acts 17:11, because “they examined the Scriptures daily whether these things were so,” Paul commends that; and he’s an Apostle! He speaks with the authority of the Savior Himself! And yet, even with that Apostolic authority, Paul commends them, because when they wanted to test what he was saying, they went to the written Scriptures to see if these things were so.

I Corinthians 4:6, Paul says, “Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us you might learn not to go beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.” Sola Scriptura!

Even our Lord Jesus Christ, when not appealing to His own inherent authority, clinched His arguments with His opponents by saying, “It stands written!” or “Have you not read” in the Bible? He said, “Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me.” John 5:39

Does the LORD ever use non Biblical “tradition” in a favorbale light? Does the LORD ever teach using good “tradition” to make a point?

The Scripture is God Breathed and apparently good enough for Jesus and the apostles! Why would i need another authority that is not God Breathed?
Click to expand...
  1. Paul authoritatively interpreted what the Old Testament Scriptures meant! He didn’t just set down the Old Testament in silence and let the Scripture interpret itself (as if that were possible). This Berean’s passage does not teach that you must go by the Bible alone. It doesn’t even mention the New Testament.
  2. How do you know if you are “going beyond what is written” without an interpreter? This passage does not teach that you must go by the Bible alone, either, and doesn’t say which books make up the Bible.
  3. Jesus shows HIS teaching authority OVER personal interpretation of scripture and condemns erroneous personal interpretation. Here’s what you left out:
You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

They made the wrong interpretation!
  1. Good tradition:
Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men
1Pet 1:25 - God’s eternal word = word preached to you
Rom 10:17 - faith come from what is heard
1Cor 15:1-2 - being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached
Mk 16:15 - go to the whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature
Mt 23:2-3 - chair of Moses; observe whatever they tell you
1Cor 11:2 - commends them for following Apostolic tradition
  1. ‘If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. . . . But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you. . . . If he refuses to listen . . . tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector’ (Mt 18:15-17).
The Bible is very clear to me about what to do if we have a disagreement with one another over some issue pertaining to the Faith. And please remember: To lead someone into heresy is a grievous sin against your brother according to Galatians 5:19-21! The Bible tells us that the Church, not the Bible, is the final court of appeal.

geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/solascriptura21.html
geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/staplessolascriptura.html
 
40.png
kaycee:
Does the LORD ever use non Biblical “tradition” in a favorbale light? Does the LORD ever teach using good “tradition” to make a point?
Click to expand...
Absolutely! (Others have been pointed out above, but I’ll add one…)

**1 Corinthians 10:1-4; " I want you to know, bretheren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them and the Rock was Christ." **
I would like to point out that this reference to the Rock that followed the Israelites in the desert can not be found in the Jewish Bible, in other words in our Old Testament.
This reference to the Rock that followed the Israelites in the desert is part of Old Testament Oral Tradition. St. Paul was using Oral Tradition as well as Written Tradition when he preached, both were equally accepted by his audience. Which gives witness to the Catholic and Orthodox Church’s teaching on both Written and Oral Tradition!
 
E.E.N.S.:
St. Paul was using Oral Tradition as well as Written Tradition when he preached, both were equally accepted by his audience. Which gives witness to the Catholic and Orthodox Church’s teaching on both Written and Oral Tradition!
Click to expand...
Can you give an example of what Paul taught via oral tradition?
 
EXAMPLE:

1 Corinthians 10:4

Paul shows how Christian sacraments–baptism and the Eucharist --were prefigured in the Old Testament. He treats baptism first: “Our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea” (vv. 1-2). Next he highlights the Eucharist, prefigured by the manna in the wilderness (v.3; cf. John6:26-40), and the water that God provided for Israel: “All drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ” (1Cor. 10:4).

The Old Testament says nothing about any movement of the rock that Moses struck to provide water for the Israelites (Ex. 17:1-7, Num. 20:2-13), but in rabbinic Tradition the rock actually followed them on their journey through the wilderness. [See Tosefta *Sukkah 3:11f., Pseudo-Philo Biblical Antiquities 10:7.] In a further development, another Tradition even equates this rock with preexistent Wisdom: “For the flinty rock is the Wisdom of God, which he marked off highest and chiefest from his powers, and from which he satisfies the thirsty souls that love God.” [Philo *Leg. all. 2.86. Cited by H. Conzelmann, 1 Corinthians (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1975), 167.]

It seems that Paul is drawing on this Tradition, but he elevates it to even a higher level. Christ himself was the Rock who provided for the people of Israel, which in turn makes their rebellion all the more heinous (1Cor. 10:5ff.). Paul does not hesitate to draw on stock oral Tradition to illustrate and enhance his presentation of the gospel. The details provided in these Traditions preserved under the Old Covenant shed fresh light on the preparation that God made through Israel for the building of his Church and on the characteristics of the Christian sacraments.

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9505fea1.asp
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top