I have two questions!

[PJM]

=revert_jen;8265664]Short answer: No. It is not true.

Long answer: I’m not sure what you mean by “reunite with Mother Mary.” If you had said, “reunite with Mother Church,” it would have been closer but still not true.

Here is what the Catechism says: “… Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” (CCC #846)

What this is saying is that if your grandmother understood that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and that He affirmed it as necessary for salvation, and that she nonetheless left the Church, she could not be saved. Presumably, however, the reason that she left was that she did not understand the nature of the Church. Since the Church provides the sacraments to help us come closer to God, she would have many more helps to salvation if she were Catholic than she has now. However, that does not mean she is condemned to Hell! It just means that she has made things difficult for herself.

I can’t answer for everyone, but I can answer for myself. I left the Church because I didn’t understand it, and because I was young and thought I knew everything, and because I met some very Christ-centered Protestants. This is not to say that I hadn’t known any very Christ-centered Catholics, because of course I had. But they didn’t talk about it. I also assumed that any doctrine I could not personally defend was therefore indefensible. This was silly, because I hadn’t even looked around to see whether there was a defense, but since I knew everything, what was the point?

As for the increase in numbers of the Church, I’m afraid probably more of that is due to immigration than to conversion. Not that there’s anything wrong with immigration, just that conversion would be so great.

–Jen

Jen, the presumption is that that any adult that leaves the C does so after have receivd the sacraments of Iniation: Baptism, Reconcillation, Eucharist and Confirmtion. [Yes reconcillation is not on the list, but nevertheless is required for Echarist], and therefore does have an understanding sufficient to at least know the truth.

It is nearly inconceivable that one could actually be a member of the Church and have NOT been advised [that is to be taken as “know”] that the RCC is necessary for salvation, therefore Heb. 6:4-10 does apply.

God, always merciful and always desiring to save as MANY souls as permit Him to, gladly and joyfully accept everyone BACK into the One True Church of Christ.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[broallenjoseph]

QUOTE=hosemonkey;8265433. Our Blessed Mother is not divine, not a goddess, but highly favored among the Saints and capable of powerful intersession for us.

She is highly favored by who? By God!!! If He has chosen her, and He did so from the beginning of Genesis, then my honor of her as the Mother of the Church is certainly not offensive to God.
If Jesus lived the law perfectly, and we know he did, he honored his Mother. If we are followers of Christ and want to imitate Him, we too will honor His mother.

 

[revert_jen]

Jen, the presumption is that that any adult that leaves the C does so after have receivd the sacraments of Iniation: Baptism, Reconcillation, Eucharist and Confirmtion. [Yes reconcillation is not on the list, but nevertheless is required for Echarist], and therefore does have an understanding sufficient to at least know the truth.

I don’t know who’s presuming it, but unless it is God (which of course it isn’t, because He doesn’t have to presume anything), it doesn’t matter. The Church does not declare that any soul is in Hell, nor that any specific living person (even if he is not a member of the Church in good standing) is necessarily going there, even should he die this moment.

It is nearly inconceivable that one could actually be a member of the Church and have NOT been advised [that is to be taken as “know”] that the RCC is necessary for salvation, therefore Heb. 6:4-10 does apply.

I think you are mistaken. When I left the Church (yes, after all of the sacraments of initiation) I certainly did NOT know that the Church was necessary for salvation. There are at least two things wrong with your argument:

1. I, like many of my age, knew a lot from my religious instruction about how to make felt banners and cardboard Jesse trees, but not a whole lot about the faith. I wasn’t even required to memorize the 10 commandments, although I believe we did pictures of the stone tablets with construction paper. I seem to remember that I used purple.
2. Being told something is not in any way equivalent to knowing it.
   
   a. I have been told that the MSM presents an unbiased view of the news, and even that The View is an unbiased arena where issues are discussed fairly. I would not in any way say that I know these things, because frankly I don’t believe them.
   b. I have also been told the principal exports of Australia, but I don’t know them because I have no memory of them.​

Even if I had been told, and did remember, and did believe it at some time before I left the Church (none of which was the case, although of course I believe it now), I might also have been told things that contradicted it. For example, I was once invited to go to an amusement park with a friend’s family on a Sunday. Because of a prior commitment, I couldn’t go to Mass on the Saturday evening, so I asked my father if I could skip Mass and go. He said no, and I complained (as children do). So he said, “OK. We’ll go to the church and ask the priest.” We did that. The priest, much to my father’s disappointment, said it was OK to skip Mass, but I should go on Monday morning to make up for it.

I had been told that Sunday Mass was an obligation that was not something you could ignore for casual amusements. I had possibly been told that you couldn’t “make up for it” by going some time during the week. But I had also been told, and by a priest no less, that you could skip Mass and make up for it later if it was more convenient. From a purely logical standpoint, according to your premises, I then knew completely incompatible things, which is impossible.

I am not one of those people (far from it!) who hold the idea that “Judge not” means that you can’t have any ideas about the morality of any action. But that is because I realize that what it means is that you may not judge the condition of another’s soul. “… although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgement of persons to the justice and mercy of God.” (CCC #1861)

God alone knows what people really know. This is both a reason to give others the benefit of the doubt (including the OP’s grandmother), and a reason to be really careful that we do not lie to ourselves. God will really be merciful to people who really don’t know, and He will not be fooled by the stupid lies we try to tell ourselves.

–Jen

 

[Bezant]

1.) Is this true? If someone for whatever reason leaves the Catholic Church, they go to hell unless they reunite with Mother Mary? Cause, my Grandmother was a Catholic but she left because they always spoke in Latin and now she is Baptist like me but Im Converting. So is that true, if so, can I have some reasoning.

2.) Why do so many people leave the Catholic Church? Im hearing more people leaving the Church to Protestant and I hardly ever see many people going to Catholic. But the weird thing is, the Nation Counsel of Churches says the Catholic Church is rising. Thanks.

I think the first question has been addressed, generally as “No, but…”

As for the second, there are loads of reasons of course.

Some people are Catholic in the ‘cultural’ sense. When these people leave, I think it’s because they don’t see the Church filling their spiritual void (if there is one).

Another reason people leave is because the Church teaches that it is alone the infalliable authority on morals and faith. That’s a tough idea to accept, and frankly, I think few Catholics fully do. Many of whose who can’t leave because they don’t want to obey Church teaching dishonestly. This reason ties into other motivations for leaving the Church, e.g., disagreement over contraception, female ordination, homosexual civil unions, etc.

Others leave also because of the sex abuse scandals and coverups, which I find understandable, although not very wise.

 

[Bezant]

God alone knows what people really know. This is both a reason to give others the benefit of the doubt (including the OP’s grandmother), and a reason to be really careful that we do not lie to ourselves. God will really be merciful to people who really don’t know, and He will not be fooled by the stupid lies we try to tell ourselves.

–Jen

Everything was excellently said, but this more so.

 

[hn160]

Firstly, no one can relegate someone else to Hell, not even the Catholic Church. People send themselves to Hell by their own choices and actions. God does not desire the death of sinners, but desires the reconcilliation of sinners to Himself. Only the final rejection of God’s mercy sends anyone to Hell. Secondly, rejection of the Mother of Jesus is not a mortal offense. Certainly displeasing to Jesus, but not death-dealing. Our Blessed Mother is not divine, not a goddess, but highly favored among the Saints and capable of powerful intersession for us. We venerate her highly, but we do not worship her. God alone is worshipped.

The fact is, is that the Catholic Church is increasing in the world. Our biggest problem is the decreasing number of priests to take care of the increasing numbers of persons entering the Catholic Church.

BTW, you are converting from what to what? Protestant to Catholic? If so, welcome home. If not, do some study on Catholicism, you’ll be surprised at what you.ve been missing.

Even as a Lutheran, I can agree with your statements about the Blessed Virgin Mary and God.

 

[SeekGodsHelp]

Seekgodshelp.com*Links that have changed lives all over the world. Search and further your knowledge of God.

 

[benedictus2]

Seekgodshelp.com*Links that have changed lives all over the world. Search and further your knowledge of God.

I checked the site and they are all protestant articles.

They are good I suppose for those who do not know Christ but those who need more meat and a more fuller understanding of Christian truth will be mislead.

But if those who do not know Christ can come to Christ through this then it is good.

 

[broallenjoseph]

Others leave also because of the sex abuse scandals and coverups, which I find understandable, although not very wise.

If they are leaving because there are sinners in our house, I wish them luck in finding a church that doesn’t have them. On the other hand if they find a church with no sinners, I hope they do not join them, Why contaminate the membership?

 

[guanophore]

This is the best thing I have heard yet from a Catholic concerning Mary.

I hope you will be able to stick around here long enough to learn that many of your misconceptions have better answers.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by JD27076
Is this true? If someone for whatever reason leaves the Catholic Church, they go to hell unless they reunite with Mother Mary? Cause, my Grandmother was a Catholic but she left because they always spoke in Latin and now she is Baptist like me but Im Converting. So is that true, if so, can I have some reasoning.

REPLY from:

Totally not true. Only God knows who will go to hell and if they do go to hell, they would have freely chosen to go to hell.

My dear friend in Christ,

The Catechism of Christ CC and therefore God himself seems NOT to agree with YOUR position.

980 It is through the sacrament of Penance that the baptized can be reconciled with God and with the Church:

Penance has rightly been called by the holy Fathers “a laborious kind of baptism.” This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn.

778 The Church is both the means and the goal of God’s plan: prefigured in creation, prepared for in the Old Covenant, founded by the words and actions of Jesus Christ, fulfilled by his redeeming cross and his Resurrection, the Church has been manifested as the mystery of salvation by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. She will be perfected in the glory of heaven as the assembly of all the redeemed of the earth (cf. Rev 14:4).

830 The word “catholic” means “universal,” in the sense of “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.” The Church is catholic in a double sense:
First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.” In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him “the fullness of the means of salvation” which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

851 Missionary motivation. It is from God’s love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, “for the love of Christ urges us on.” Indeed, God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”; that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation.

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

853 On her pilgrimage, the Church has also experienced the “discrepancy existing between the message she proclaims and the human weakness of those to whom the Gospel has been entrusted.” Only by taking the “way of penance and renewal,” the “narrow way of the cross,” can the People of God extend Christ’s reign. For “just as Christ carried out the work of redemption in poverty and oppression, so the Church is called to follow the same path if she is to communicate the fruits of salvation to men.”

1407 The Eucharist is the heart and the summit of the Church’s life, for in it Christ associates his Church and all her members with his sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving offered once for all on the cross to his Father; by this sacrifice he pours out the graces of salvation on his Body which is the Church.

2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.

God’s continued Blessings be with you,
Pat

 

[guanophore]

1.) Is this true? If someone for whatever reason leaves the Catholic Church, they go to hell unless they reunite with Mother Mary? Cause, my Grandmother was a Catholic but she left because they always spoke in Latin and now she is Baptist like me but Im Converting. So is that true, if so, can I have some reasoning.

The salient part of this is “for whatever reason”. If a person recognizes that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ, and that she holds and teaches infallibly the One Faith committed to her from Christ through the Apostles, and wilfully, stubbornly rejects that Truth, then there is no salvation for such a one. This is because there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved.j

However, if it is, as has been the case for many of us, one leaves because one does not understand the faith, or is lured out by lies and misinformation, then a person is not held accountable for that which they did not know.

With regard to reunification with Mary, Mary is the Mother of the Church. One who is in unity with Christ will be in unity with HIs One Body, the Church. This being the case, one is also in unity with all those who are members of her, which includes Mary.

2.) Why do so many people leave the Catholic Church? Im hearing more people leaving the Church to Protestant and I hardly ever see many people going to Catholic. But the weird thing is, the Nation Counsel of Churches says the Catholic Church is rising. Thanks.

I left because I was spiritually starving. I did not apprehend the presence of Christ in the sacraments, and was hungry for the Word, which I had never been taught to read or study. I fell in with some Baptists because they read and studied their bibles. Thanks be to God He led me to return through my studies.

 

[Hail_Linus]

The catholic church has higher numbers, due primarly to the birth rate of its adherents

Catholics are not reproducing the way they used to. It not unusual to see a one child family. It is unusual to see families of 5 or more kids.

and its practice of not removing people from the church rolls after they leave the church.

At least two-thrids of Catholics (if not more) do not even register and are not on Church rolls. World-wide that lack of registering is even higher. So any statistics based on “church rolls” cannot possibly be accurate.

The fastest growing denomination in North America is Seventh day Adventist.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and The Watch Tower Bible and tract Society are fighting it out for second place, far behind the Adventists.

I don’t want to be insulting to these groups but their theology is so bizarre that I highly doubt any of this were true. Their religions are very hard to sell.

 

[amber_lux]

I don’t want to be insulting to these groups but their theology is so bizarre that I highly doubt any of this were true.

Go argue with the people that compiled the 2011 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches. Or perhaps you’d rather argue with the World Council of Churches.

Their religions are very hard to sell.

The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, and *Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints * literally fight it out each year, for who has the highest number of hours spent exclusively in outreach/missionary work. Seventh Day Adventists come in at a distant third place. They devote more than twice the amount of time to missionary outreach than the organization that is in fourth place.

What they have discovered, is what every good sales organization knows. The more time spent belly to belly with qualified prospects, the higher your sales are going to be.

Think of this way:

Which do you think will have more non-members of your denomination darkening the doors of your churches:

• A million people spending 40 hours a week knocking on doorbells?
• A million people spending a week in Barcelona listening to the church leaders?

Amber

 

[jlhargus]

1.) 2.) Why do so many people leave the Catholic Church? Im hearing more people leaving the Church to Protestant and I hardly ever see many people going to Catholic. But the weird thing is, the Nation Counsel of Churches says the Catholic Church is rising. Thanks.

JL: Most people who leave the Church don’t become Protestant. They simply drop out and don’t attend any chruch. As a former Protestant I agree with Hail Linus below. I find 2 Thessalonians interesting 2Thes2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

As to the second question I do not know if there any legitimate studies on this issue. However, in my opinion Protestants ho convert were fabulous Christians even when they were Protestants. The Catholic Church gives the complete Christianity and the Catholic Church (as a whole and the individuals) benefit from having such wonderful Christians unite with her. Unfortunately for the Protestants, Catholics who leave the Church were not really good Christians to begin with. I know because I was one of them. In other words, we get the cream of the Protestant crop from the Protestants. Protestant Churches get the bottom of the Catholic barrel.

 

[fred_conty]

Dear Revert Jen,
I have a bone to pick with you. You said, and I quote,
“I believe we did pictures of the stone tablets with construction paper. I seem to remember that I used purple.”

Now every Catholic under the sun knows that you do not make the color of the ten
commandments PURPLE. It’s GREY. So next time get it right and don’t betray us
like that anymore and scandalize all of the Protestants who know it’s gray.

 

[revert_jen]

Dear Revert Jen,
I have a bone to pick with you. You said, and I quote,
“I believe we did pictures of the stone tablets with construction paper. I seem to remember that I used purple.”

Now every Catholic under the sun knows that you do not make the color of the ten
commandments PURPLE. It’s GREY. So next time get it right and don’t betray us
like that anymore and scandalize all of the Protestants who know it’s gray.

Thanks, that was great!

We were being encouraged to “be creative;” also there isn’t a lot of gray construction paper in a pack.

I realize it causes a scandal among the faithful every time a third-grader makes the ten commandments out of a non-traditional color. It is a sad thing, that children in those days (and we aren’t, BTW, going to say when those days were, except that they were post-Vatican II ) weren’t properly catechized about the appropriate color for the stone tablets.

Never having seen stones themselves, they couldn’t expect to know what the colors really should be. Perhaps if Catholics were more in the habit of Bible reading in the home, like our Protestant brethren, we wouldn’t have these frightening states of affairs.

OTOH, it is truly vicious to constrain any child to using a particular color for the ten commandments. Children need to be allowed to find their own colors. Who is anyone to say what the real color of a stone is? People who do this sort of thing drive young people from the Church.



Anyone who takes anything I’ve said here seriously, should repair the humor filtering software on their computer. And if you are wondering who I’m making fun of, it’s just “people who say silly stuff, sometimes including me.”

–Jen

 

[CopticChristian]

1.) Is this true? If someone for whatever reason leaves the Catholic Church, they go to hell unless they reunite with Mother Mary? Cause, my Grandmother was a Catholic but she left because they always spoke in Latin and now she is Baptist like me but Im Converting. So is that true, if so, can I have some reasoning.

2.) Why do so many people leave the Catholic Church? Im hearing more people leaving the Church to Protestant and I hardly ever see many people going to Catholic. But the weird thing is, the Nation Counsel of Churches says the Catholic Church is rising. Thanks.

My suggestion for #1 is to get catechized, convert, leave your grandmother alone and be a good witness to what you believe. Get hold of Patrick Madrid’s books, Search & Rescue and Surprised by truths. Do not try to reason with your grandmother.

My second suggestion is to consider the source of your statistics. Catholics are on the rise not on the decline. When the reformation came and went Mexico and Latin America saw a great number of converts with Our Lady of Guadalupe. For every Catholic that leaves Protestant pastors, Anglican Priests come in. John Henry Newman once converted is said to have caused the conversion of hundreds of others. Lose one gain a hundred. The sadness is losing. The joy is gaining.

Check

adherents.com/

for statistics. You can see the total number of Whatever in the world. When I last looked, if you take the number of Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims that is 1/2 the world population. Protestants do not fare so well. I included Muslims just to make the point of the total number of adherents.

When trying to figure out Protestants up or down you have to define Reformed, Baptist, Evangelical etc.

What you will find that if you check every country where Protestant thought flourished at the time of the Reformation with the goal of destroying the OHCAC you will find that the majority population for the most part is now Catholic.

Recall the 13 colonies that were mainly Protestant. Reformed=Presbyterian.

13 colonies

Delaware Methodist 20%, Baptist 19%, Catholic 9% Presbyterian 3.0%

Pennsylvania Catholic 53.43.0%, Orthodox 1.06%, Protestant 30%, United Methodist 9.27%, Evangelical Lutheran 8.6%, Presbyterian 4.56%

New Jersey Presbyterian Catholic 37%, Baptist 8%, Methodist 6%, 3.2%, Presbyterian 4.0%

Georgia Catholic 12 %, 70% Protestant, Baptist 24%, Methodist 12%, Presbyterian 3.0%
Connecticut Catholic 32%, Protestant 40%, Baptist 10%, Episcopal 6%, Methodist 4%, Lutheran 4%, Presbyterian 1.0%

Massachusetts Bay Catholic 68%, Protestant 24%, Baptist 4%, Congregational Church of Christ 3%, Episcopal 3%, Presbyterian 0.8%

Maryland Catholic 32%, Protestant 56%, Baptist 18%, Methodist 11 %, Lutheran 6%, Presbyterian 2.0%

South Carolina Presbyterian Catholic 7%, Protestant 84%, Southern Baptist 45%, Methodist 15%, Presbyterian 5.0%

New Hampshire Presbyterian 2.0%

Virginia Presbyterian 3.0%

New York Catholics 40% Protestant 30 %The largest Protestant denominations are the United Methodist Church with 403,362; the American Baptist Churches USA with 203,297; and the Episcopal Church with 201,797 adherents.[36] Presbyterian 2.0%

North Carolina Presbyterian 3.0%

Rhode Island Presbyterian 1.0%

You may or may not have heard that the Population of Protestants in the USA is approaching less than 51%. This has happened in the last 200 years. We have time. The Reformation was 500 years ago. We can wait another 500 to see how they fare.

The Reformed/Presbyterian is a minority as you see.