I II Mac quoted in N. T

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it is not quoted in the NT. But, there is a festival based on an event in those books in the NT.
 
1 and 2 Macabees may not be quoted verbatim in the New Testament, but there are strking similarities. I believed Paul, who was a master of Old Testament scripture, used 1 Maccabees 2:51-61 as the basis for littany of the Cloud of Witnesses in Hebrews 11. At a minimum, Paul is using the same rabinnical teaching technique.

**Remember the deeds that our fathers did in their times, and you shall win great glory and an everlasting name.
Was not Abraham found faithful in trial, and it was reputed to him as uprightness?
Joseph, when in distress, kept the commandment, and he became master of Egypt.
Phinehas our father, for his burning zeal, received the covenant of an everlasting priesthood.
Joshua, for executing his commission, became a judge in Israel.
Caleb, for bearing witness before the assembly, received an inheritance in the land.
David, for his piety, received as a heritage a throne of everlasting royalty.
Elijah, for his burning zeal for the law, was taken up to heaven.
Hananiah, Azariah and Mishael, for their faith, were saved from the fire.
Daniel, for his innocence, was delivered from the jaws of lions.
And so, consider this from generation to generation, that none who hope in him shall fail in strength. **
(1 Maccabees 2:51-61)
***By faith Abraham, when put to the test, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer his only son,
of whom it was said, “Through Isaac descendants shall bear your name.”
He reasoned that God was able to raise even from the dead, and he received Isaac back as a symbol.
By faith regarding things still to come Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau.
By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and “bowed in worship, leaning on the top of his staff.”
By faith Joseph, near the end of his life, spoke of the Exodus of the Israelites and gave instructions about his bones.
By faith Moses was hidden by his parents for three months after his birth, because they saw that he was a beautiful child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter;
By faith the walls of Jericho fell after being encircled for seven days.
By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish with the disobedient, for she had received the spies in peace.
What more shall I say? I have not time to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, *(Hebrews 11:17-24,31-32)

-Tim-
 
Jim I think your best approach would be to argue from “core knowledge”. Basically, Jewish people of Jesus’ day would have known what was written in those books. And, that knowledge would help them understand the teachings of Jesus after Jesus opened all the scriptures to them after the resurrection.

For example, Abomination of Desolation opensourcetheology.net/node/1293

festival of lights, too
The Books of the Maccabees, which record the origins of the Hanukkah story and of the Hasmonean dynasty, are represented by Josephus in the Jewish Antiquities, Book 12 Chapter 5 through Book 13 Chapter 7. These chapters are primarily a compressed version of the First Book of Maccabees, supplemented by some material from the Second Book of Maccabees War 1 37-47, with some additional changes made by Josephus. An even more condensed version appears in the Jewish War, Book 1 Chapters 3-6.
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josephus.org/hanukkah.htm
 
I can’t say I know of any direct quotes, but then again the NT doesn’t quote from Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, or the Song of Solomon either.
 
Regarding the above ink to:
scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html

Don’t get me wrong, I love scripturecatholic.com, but did anyone actually look up all the verses cited by them as examples of the Deuterocanon in the NT? I looked up the first 5 or 6 and they don’t look very promising to me…in fact, they look like a bit of a stretch. maybe hold off on using those if you’re debating with a protestant or something.

If anyone else has a chance to look at these, please come back to this thread and relay your thoughts on the matter…
 
I looked a number of them up before posting. While they were not direct quotes the references were implied. I didn’t respond because TimothyH’s response pretty much mentioned that.
 
CaptCrunch73 said:
I looked a number of them up before posting. While they were not direct quotes the references were implied. I didn’t respond because TimothyH’s response pretty much mentioned that.
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No, I wasn’t expecting quotes, I was expecting implicit references. All I’m saying is some of them seem unlikely and a bit of a stretch.

Wisdom 11 doesn’t sound at all like a prophecy of anything, but rather like a short narractive of events during the wilderness wanderings. I just don’t personally see any prophecy of the events surrounding the nativity when I read the chapter.

Matthew 12’s reference to solomon’s wisdom is just that, a reference to someone coming to hear the wisdom of solomon…from solomon. To imply that it is a reference to a book by its proper name or title sounds unlikely. I don’t think its likely to convince a protestant of anything.

Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
God is called the maker and God and Lord of both heaven and earth elsewhere in the old testament.

Matt 24:16’s reference to fleeing to the hills is not at all necessarily from 1 macc 2. It’s not likely it was even an implicit reference. Didn’t David flee to the hills on a least on occasion. Wasn’t this a standard tactic in those days? And the type of fleeing is completely different. Jesus is talking about escaping the roman destruction of jerusalem. 1 Macc 2 certainly uses the term “flee” but if you read it in context it’s actually let’s regroup out in the wilderness and het ready for some butt-whooping, Maccabees style. And notice, the author even uses the words “is taken from” when in fact its not necessarily “taken from.” Not even implicitly.

I find many of them to be valid, but I’m just concerned that there are a bunch of unrealistic ones mixed in there and that perhaps the reason is a misplaced desire to rise to the challenge of protestants in their demand that we cite quotes when in fact it is they, the heretics, who should be asked to rise to the challenge of canonicity and authority. Quotation or implicit reference in the NT is not criteria for canonicity in the OT (as I said neither Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, or the Song of Solomon are quoted in the NT) and I fear that we’re giving the heretics too much credit when we play on their grounds. I also fear that when proof text lists are mixed with a bunch of verses that may well be simply wrong that there is a danger of a Catholic who relies on that list looking like a fool if he tries using the wrong one to defend the faith.

Anyway, I hope I don’t come off as opposing the implicit reference argument, I just don’t think we should but as many eggs in that basket as the heretics ask us to and I caution people to be careful in using some of the verses in that list, thats all.
 
James924 said:
Anyway, I hope I don’t come off as opposing the implicit reference argument, I just don’t think we should but as many eggs in that basket as the heretics ask us to and I caution people to be careful in using some of the verses in that list, thats all.
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Fair enough, it was a great question and, unfortuntaly, I haven’t had enough time to follow through other than the original post and watching this thread. But it’s on my list 😃 I hope this thread stays around a while.
 
CaptCrunch73 said:
I looked a number of them up before posting. While they were not direct quotes the references were implied. I didn’t respond because TimothyH’s response pretty much mentioned that.
Click to expand...
I read them in context, and they are not even implied, just wishful thinking on the part of the person who compiled that list.
 
The second part of (Heb 11:35) refers to the Maccabean martyrs who were tortured as they professed faith in the resurrection (2 Mac 7).
 
ryanoneil said:
The second part of (Heb 11:35) refers to the Maccabean martyrs who were tortured as they professed faith in the resurrection (2 Mac 7).
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That’s certainly true. Unfortunately it won’t convince Protestants of the book’s inspiration since the heretics themselves have been acknowledging that verse’s reference to Maccabees since the reformation and yet still denying the true canon. (Calvin, JFB, Poole, IVP Background, NIVSB).
 
I am the OP.

Thanks!

Are there better or more complete lists of JTWEB & 2 Maccabees, and parts of Daniel and Esther being used in the New Testament.

The one that was posted seems really good, but I have not taken enough time to study it.

In other words, it is good enough for me, but I was hoping for more.

Thanks, thanks, thanks…
 
The answer to this question depends on the criteria you use to accept something as a valid references as mentioned in the following article…

Deuterocanonical References in the New Testament by Jimmy Akin.

As James924 pointed out if one was debating with a Protestant some references in the original list may be difficult to prove. I’m not sure what the OPs ends goal is but that information is important for their final answer.

My critera for this topic are pretty low so both the original list of references and the list contain in Jimmy Akin’s article are fine for me and I’m good with that. :nunchuk:
 
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