I John 5:11-13

[rmuffin]

Hello,
After witnessing in front of PP with other protestants, a very nice fellow asked me if I knew I would go to heaven. I stated that I sure hoped to. He then said for me to read "I John 5:11-13) so that I would know for sure. Since I carried my rosary, he knew I was Catholic.
I would like to respond to him with a counter Bible verse in defense of Catholic faith (even though we don’t have time for discussions when we are there) Any suggestions? Thank you.

 

[Don9of11]

Here is an interesting article by Karl Keating catholic.com/newsletters/kke_051220.asp, and another article which might be of help catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=352 both worth reading.

There was nothing wrong with your response, we all hope to go to heaven. Quoting a bible verse to a non-catholic in reply to his is an invitation to debate. A debate implies a winner and a looser, he is out to win and to try and convert you. He is not interested in a truly meaningful discussion and what you end up with is mountain of bible verses.

After witnessing in front of PP with other protestants

What exactly were you doing?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

My verses are a bit off, since I am using the NAB and your “friend” obviously is not. However it seems he is speaking about John’s referring to Jesus as speaking of belief in himself as necessary to salvation. This falls in line with the evangelical Protestant belief of asking Christ into your heaert as your personal Lord and savior, and then you’re saved.

Since John is the accepted traditional writer of this letter, let’s use another passage from John’s actual gospel. Here is what the Protestant NIV will say:

John 3:36: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

Now here is the Catholic NAB version:

John 3:36: “Whoever believes in Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Notice the difference in the underlined words. I fortunately have the New Interlinear Greek translation of the NT, and the correct word in the Greek is “disobey.” Why is this important? Because if the opposite of believing is disobedience, then believing must equal obedience, according to John and the rules of logic. This is borne out earlier in John ch.3, when Jesus talks quite a bit about this necessity of belief, but then goes on to speak of how those who do wicked things hate the light (the light already having been connect with Christ in chapter 1), and that whoever lives the truth comes to the light. Basically, according to Jesus, faith equals obedience, and particularly in this chapter, one of the things Jesus tells you to do is get baptized as well.

Hope this helps. I could have given you a buttload but I stuck with a passage in another book by John to help illustrate your friend’s problem.

 

[Luke65]

Here is an interesting article by Karl Keating catholic.com/newsletters/kke_051220.asp, and another article which might be of help catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=352 both worth reading.

There was nothing wrong with your response, we all hope to go to heaven. Quoting a bible verse to a non-catholic in reply to his is an invitation to debate. A debate implies a winner and a looser, he is out to win and to try and convert you. He is not interested in a truly meaningful discussion and what you end up with is mountain of bible verses.

True, nevertheless, we must always be ready to give an answer, and especially to our Bible-believing brethren who are missing out on the abundant life in the Catholic Church.

This website will fully arm you with Scripture and the early Church writings:

scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

 

[Lancer]

**First, here is his scripture quote…
**

** 1 John 5:11-13 (NIV)**

11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
**Concluding Remarks **

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Here (just for example, to make a broader point) are two other scripture quotes …both in Jesus’ own words:

Matthew 10:22 (NIV)

22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

**Matthew 7:21 (NIV)

**21Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but **only he who does the will of my Father **who is in heaven.

So which is correct… is it** either** the first quote [his] or the second & third quotes?

Actually…it is both the first quote and the second & third quotes [and many others/other things…which is why the authoritative Catholic Church…Peter…the Pope and Bishops in communion with him and the Magisterium…is so important]!

Simply…he has demonstrated (in good honest faith) the typical Protestant** “either…or” **mentality (“cherry-picking”) versus the Catholic/Orthodox “both…and” (“context-consistent”) understanding. Its the Protestant “Sola Scripture” (scripture alone) and “Sola Fides” (faith alone) theology that leads to his mentality…practice. Next time (if there is one)…ask him to explain how baptism fits into…getting into heaven.

My “two-cents” offered for your consideration.

Lastly…I like your answer…for me too…I sure hope that I am going to get into heaven (with a rather long “pit stop” most assuredly required)!

Pax Christi

 

[rmuffin]

Here is an interesting article by Karl Keating catholic.com/newsletters/kke_051220.asp, and another article which might be of help catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=352 both worth reading.

There was nothing wrong with your response, we all hope to go to heaven. Quoting a bible verse to a non-catholic in reply to his is an invitation to debate. A debate implies a winner and a looser, he is out to win and to try and convert you. He is not interested in a truly meaningful discussion and what you end up with is mountain of bible verses.

What exactly were you doing?

We were praying in front of Planned Parenthood, with signs, and handing out information. Thank you so much for your help!

 

[NotWorthy]

We were praying in front of Planned Parenthood, with signs, and handing out information. Thank you so much for your help!

I understand that this is fertile grounds for Protestant to pick away Catholics. It shouldn’t stop us from ever going to these protests and such, but we should be prepared for questions such as these.

 

[tomjoans]

First, here is his scripture quote…

​

Here (just for example, to make a broader point) are two other scripture quotes …both in Jesus’ own words:

So which is correct… is it** either** the first quote [his] or the second & third quotes?

Actually…it is both the first quote and the second & third quotes [and many others/other things…which is why the authoritative Catholic Church…Peter…the Pope and Bishops in communion with him and the Magisterium…is so important]!

Simply…he has demonstrated (in good honest faith) the typical Protestant** “either…or” **mentality (“cherry-picking”) versus the Catholic/Orthodox “both…and” (“context-consistent”) understanding. Its the Protestant “Sola Scripture” (scripture alone) and “Sola Fides” (faith alone) theology that leads to his mentality…practice. Next time (if there is one)…ask him to explain how baptism fits into…getting into heaven.

My “two-cents” offered for your consideration.

Lastly…I like your answer…for me too…I sure hope that I am going to get into heaven (with a rather long “pit stop” most assuredly required)!

Pax Christi

I used to say that… “I hope I’m going to heaven”, until I started believeing the Words of Jesus, after all, in John 14:6 Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father except by Me. He says He’s the Way, the Truth, and the Life…what more do we need to know, except that Jesus doesn’t lie, He’s the Truth. Why not just believe His Words?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

All you stated was that he is the way, the truth, and the light. Your statement doesn’t even touch on his many other commandments demanding obedience, and John chapter 3 where he says that wicked deeds will keep you from the light.

 

[imkingdad]

the only ones going to Heaven will have their names written in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Since that book has yet to be opened & read from its all Speculation, Presumption & Hope.
No where in the sola scriptura Bible does it say that a Person that Believes has his/her name written into that Book. couple that with our clear Bible instruction to persevere unto death. & we clearly see that these types of Protestants are way off base. Unfortunately many Catholics need to be better prepared to defend their/Our
understanding of the truth. Hence this wonderful site & you fine folks.

yours in Christ

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

A Catholic can know if he has eternal life, that is how you know if you can receive the Eucharist or not. If you have just been baptized, or gotten back from a sacramental confession you can know if you are in a state of grace. If say you just murdered someone you know you do not have eternal life or “not saved” because its a mortal sin.

However, this is not the same as saying you know if you are going to Heaven. That refers to perseverance, you can know if you are going to heaven if say you have justrepented of your sins and are dying. However, it’s a sin to state you know you are going to Heaven and will preserver if you won’t be dying any time soon, assuming that information has not been given to you. However the Church does recognize God does tell some people directly that they will end up in heaven.

 

[geekborj]

Hello,
After witnessing in front of PP with other protestants, a very nice fellow asked me if I knew I would go to heaven. I stated that I sure hoped to. He then said for me to read "I John 5:11-13) so that I would know for sure. Since I carried my rosary, he knew I was Catholic.
I would like to respond to him with a counter Bible verse in defense of Catholic faith (even though we don’t have time for discussions when we are there) Any suggestions? Thank you.

You can read from catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp the following:

“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

That’s even more loads of Biblica references against the single Bible reference taken out of context. I like the BOTH-AND vs EITHER-OR differences explained below.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Hello,
After witnessing in front of PP with other protestants, a very nice fellow asked me if I knew I would go to heaven. I stated that I sure hoped to. He then said for me to read "I John 5:11-13) so that I would know for sure. Since I carried my rosary, he knew I was Catholic.
I would like to respond to him with a counter Bible verse in defense of Catholic faith (even though we don’t have time for discussions when we are there) Any suggestions? Thank you.

This is a perfect example of a protestant who believes in sola scriptura. Typically they quote a passage of scripture, taken completely out of biblical context, and point to this bit of scripture as stand alone proof of the point they are making. Not so! Scripture must be read in context to understand it’s meaning.

John 5:12 states,

12 He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life.

. I assume his question is; As a Catholic do you hath of the Son or not?

In response I would point to the following:

Matthew 7 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So what does the will of my Father mean? It means to gain heaven one must follow the tenets set down by Christ. As Catholics we are required to believe the following (look up Vatican I documents and go to - On Faith, Chapter 3, Paragraph 8). Basically this states that Catholics must believe all doctrine revealed in sacred scripture, or by Apostolic Tradition (T) and by the Universal and Ordinary magesterium of the Church. Catholics have no right of dissent from doctrine. Therefore Catholics ‘hath the son’ who keep church doctrine.

God Bless,

Iowa Mike

 

[bubbaman]

There is many times in the New Testament in which Jesus casts out demons or evil spirit’s in which all reccognized Him as the Son Of God (or belived He was) but did not do good deeds, and none of them are saved. So, just saying you know Christ or believing in Him is not enough. You must take up your cross everyday and follow in His footsteps. To love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as thyself. You can’t just do this by saying you know the Christ or believe in Him, you must do as He did with acts of charity and love.

 

[tomjoans]

First, here is his scripture quote…

​

Here (just for example, to make a broader point) are two other scripture quotes …both in Jesus’ own words:

So which is correct… is it** either** the first quote [his] or the second & third quotes?

Actually…it is both the first quote and the second & third quotes [and many others/other things…which is why the authoritative Catholic Church…Peter…the Pope and Bishops in communion with him and the Magisterium…is so important]!

Simply…he has demonstrated (in good honest faith) the typical Protestant** “either…or” **mentality (“cherry-picking”) versus the Catholic/Orthodox “both…and” (“context-consistent”) understanding. Its the Protestant “Sola Scripture” (scripture alone) and “Sola Fides” (faith alone) theology that leads to his mentality…practice. Next time (if there is one)…ask him to explain how baptism fits into…getting into heaven.

My “two-cents” offered for your consideration.

Lastly…I like your answer…for me too…I sure hope that I am going to get into heaven (with a rather long “pit stop” most assuredly required)!

Pax Christi

Just some food for thought…the theif on the cross was not baptized and didn’t have to make a pit stop (suppose there isn’t any pit stop?) He only believed. In Ephesians 2:8,9
it says, For by Grace you have been saved, through Faith, and this is not from you, it is a gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. From the St. Joseph’s Catholic Bible.

 

[bubbaman]

Maybe, the good thief was or was not baptized we don’t know what his state was only Jesus new. Your assuming he wasn’t. Maybe true also that, the good thief never even heard of Jesus until he was condemed and made the journey to Calvary with Jesus that he became aware of who Jesus was and reconciled himself at the last minute. For only Jesus knew exactly what was in his heart.
What do you think Jesus’ response would have been to the other thief on the cross if he after hearing Jesus assure the good thief that he would be with Him in paradise, said, “me to.”
I think one needs to look at what one knows to be truth and what one does with that truth. If you read in the NT that the Lords demands you be baptized and you argue that well the good theif wasn’t and he was saved than your ignoring what the Lord demanded. Once you read the truth you are subject to it! Ignorance to law is no excuse, but if you are never introduced to the law than you do not know the law, and only a just judge will give you your just reward.

 

[wmscott]

All you stated was that he is the way, the truth, and the light. Your statement doesn’t even touch on his many other commandments demanding obedience, and John chapter 3 where he says that wicked deeds will keep you from the light.

Nathan, I have been reading your posts here and in the John 3 discussions. I want to commend you in bringing to light some very key points and refuting haphazard remarks and beliefs that some folks make all the while citing Sacred Scripture out of context. Great job!!!

 

[PJM]

=rmuffin;5778301]Hello,
After witnessing in front of PP with other protestants, a very nice fellow asked me if I knew I would go to heaven. I stated that I sure hoped to. He then said for me to read "I John 5:11-13) so that I would know for sure. Since I carried my rosary, he knew I was Catholic.
I would like to respond to him with a counter Bible verse in defense of Catholic faith (even though we don’t have time for discussions when we are there) Any suggestions? Thank you.

Hi,

I have found that often when confronted with a single verse [Jn.3:16] for example; the TRUTH is supplied by the same author. In this case Jn. 3:5 and 3:36.

Look at 1 Jn. 5: verses 2,3,4,5.,16,and 17. The term “Mortal” means literally “unto DEATH!”

You can also look at 1 John 3: verses 5,6,8,9,10

And 1 John 4:12

It is my experience that while tey accept what they present as “the truth” when presented with other contradictory evidence, they just ignore or make light of it. But go ahead and try.

With this much evidence you may wish to copy and pate a document you can just hand to this person?

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[bubbaman]

I think if one thinks he is automatically going to heaven he/she probaly isn’t doing enough to make sure of this. I bet the Pharisees thought that they were going to heaven. Who know’s for sure maybe they made it and maybe they didn’t. To love God with all your mind, body and soul is hard enough, to love thy nieghbor as thy self is also dificult, and lets not forget to pray for your enemies.
A good book for everyone to read is called “The Spiritual Battle and a Treaise On Peace of Soul,” by Dom Lorenzo and can be puchased at the web site Spiritdaily.com, read it and then ask yourself that same question.
I apologize that I am not quoting scripture like everyone else here. But just like the previous post, you can take any one liner out of the bible and over analyze until it works out in your favor. You need to put them all together for them to work for your salvation, thats why it’s called the Holy Bible and not just a book of one liners.

 

[PJM]

=bubbaman;5801552]Maybe, the good thief was or was not baptized we don’t know what his state was only Jesus new. Your assuming he wasn’t. Maybe true also that, the good thief never even heard of Jesus until he was condemed and made the journey to Calvary with Jesus that he became aware of who Jesus was and reconciled himself at the last minute. For only Jesus knew exactly what was in his heart.
What do you think Jesus’ response would have been to the other thief on the cross if he after hearing Jesus assure the good thief that he would be with Him in paradise, said, “me to.”
I think one needs to look at what one knows to be truth and what one does with that truth. If you read in the NT that the Lords demands you be baptized and you argue that well the good theif wasn’t and he was saved than your ignoring what the Lord demanded. Once you read the truth you are subject to it! Ignorance to law is no excuse, but if you are never introduced to the law than you do not know the law, and only a just judge will give you your just reward.

We should not forget that in addition to “the Ordinary Form of Baptism in Water and Spirit” that htere ar Two Extrodinary forms: Desire which the 'good thief" indicated, and Blood." Therefore he was baptised!

Love and prayer,

Pat