I John 5:11-13

[guanophore]

Just some food for thought…the theif on the cross was not baptized and didn’t have to make a pit stop (suppose there isn’t any pit stop?) He only believed. In Ephesians 2:8,9
it says, For by Grace you have been saved, through Faith, and this is not from you, it is a gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. From the St. Joseph’s Catholic Bible.

We don’t know if he was baptized or not. since scripture says “all of Judea” went down to be baptized…the good thief knew that Jesus had a Kingdom, and was able to forgive sins. Where did he learn these things? For all we know, he listed to Jesus’ teaching, and knew some disciples.

Besides, you need to keep reading through to v. 10. The thief did do works of righteousness that God had prepared for him. He rebuked the other thief who was reviling the Lord. He took responsibility for his own behavior, and confessed that they were receiving “the just punishment” for their sins. He made a profession of faith in Christ - “this man has done nothing wrong”. He makes a humble prayer of repentance.

I don’t know how people can read this passage and not see all these actions that he took.

He demonstrated what the Apostle teaches “the only thing that counts is faith, working through love”. His faith was completed/made perfect by his works, Just as James states: “so you see that, we are not saved by faith alone”.

 

[bubbaman]

We should not forget that in addition to “the Ordinary Form of Baptism in Water and Spirit” that htere ar Two Extrodinary forms: Desire [which the 'good thief" indicated, and Blood." Therefore he was baptised!

Love and prayer,

Pat

Pat, The good thief displayed desire and believed in Jesus Christ as the promised one, but the blood he shed was not in name of Jesus Christ, and it was not innocent either. He even stated that he and his friend (the other thief ) were getting the punishment they deserved. For the blood that Christ shed was innocent blood - it’s true that there is no greater sacrifice than to lay ones life down for another. That’s why Christ accepted this sacrifice that all those who believed in Him would not parrish.
Mark 16: 16 - The man who believes in the Good News and accepts baptism will be saved, the man who refuses to believe in it will be condemed. This is the law that Christ set forth to his disiples right before He ascended to heaven.
Jesus was baptised not that He needed to be, he was sinless, for He was baptised to purify the water’s of baptismal. So that now everyone who is baptised is free from that original sin. That’s not to say once your baptised that you’ll never be prone to sin, but until than no one was allowed into the kingdom of God until all was fulfilled.
I think another arguement might be is that until all was fulfilled (Christ dying, Christ rising again and Christ ascending to heaven) that the new law was not yet set, and the old law still prevailed. The old law that Moses was instructed with, maybe he was a jew, doesn’t really matter what we think, only matters that He believed, and that Jesus, the Son of Man had the only authority at the time to forgive sins on earth. Mark 2: 8- 12.

I’m not trying to discredit you I just don’t know where the blood part comes from that you were referring to.
God Bless you and yours!
[/quote]

 

[tomjoans]

Pat, The good thief displayed desire and believed in Jesus Christ as the promised one, but the blood he shed was not in name of Jesus Christ, and it was not innocent either. He even stated that he and his friend (the other thief ) were getting the punishment they deserved. For the blood that Christ shed was innocent blood - it’s true that there is no greater sacrifice than to lay ones life down for another. That’s why Christ accepted this sacrifice that all those who believed in Him would not parrish.
Mark 16: 16 - The man who believes in the Good News and accepts baptism will be saved, the man who refuses to believe in it will be condemed. This is the law that Christ set forth to his disiples right before He ascended to heaven.
Jesus was baptised not that He needed to be, he was sinless, for He was baptised to purify the water’s of baptismal. So that now everyone who is baptised is free from that original sin. That’s not to say once your baptised that you’ll never be prone to sin, but until than no one was allowed into the kingdom of God until all was fulfilled.
I think another arguement might be is that until all was fulfilled (Christ dying, Christ rising again and Christ ascending to heaven) that the new law was not yet set, and the old law still prevailed. The old law that Moses was instructed with, maybe he was a jew, doesn’t really matter what we think, only matters that He believed, and that Jesus, the Son of Man had the only authority at the time to forgive sins on earth. Mark 2: 8- 12.

I’m not trying to discredit you I just don’t know where the blood part comes from that you were referring to.
God Bless you and yours!

I know we’re not saved by faith alone. I quoted the Scriptues in Ephesian 2:8,9.,For by Grace are we saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is
the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. “it is a free gift of God”!
If a person is on his death bed…never been baptized, but has time to tell God he is sorry for all his sins and really means it in his heart…you mean he won’t make heaven? That would be so sad, when God wants to give us this Gift, if only we repent and obey His Word.
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans(Joan) T

 

[tomjoans]

All you stated was that he is the way, the truth, and the light. Your statement doesn’t even touch on his many other commandments demanding obedience, and John chapter 3 where he says that wicked deeds will keep you from the light.

Hi Nathan,
I’m sorry that’s all I stated, because in John 1:1, it says In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…In John 1:14 and the Word became flesh and His dwelling among us, and we saw His Glory, the Glory of the Father’s only Son, (JESUS) full of Grace and Truth. “I see that all the Words in the Bible are Jesus and when I asked Him into my heart, then all I wanted to do was to study His Word to see what He wanted of me. His Word is in my heart. I hope my thinking about this is right”.
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans,(Joan)

 

[bubbaman]

I know we’re not saved by faith alone. I quoted the Scriptues in Ephesian 2:8,9.,For by Grace are we saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is
the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. “it is a free gift of God”!
If a person is on his death bed…never been baptized, but has time to tell God he is sorry for all his sins and really means it in his heart…you mean he won’t make heaven? That would be so sad, when God wants to give us this Gift, if only we repent and obey His Word.
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans(Joan) T

My Dear Friend in Jesus,
Your question is a trick question, niether you or I have the authority to judgeLuke 7: 37-42niether do we have the authority to question the Law. Read Mathew 5:17-20
Faith is free, and through faith we recieve grace. But many grace’s are neccesary to obey the law in it’s entirety.
Life is a gift from God and it’s precious in the sense that we have a liftime to love, honor and obey God, we do this by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. By accepting Him we accept all that He has instructed. Life is not meant to gain treasures here on this earth, for we have been exiled to this place and it is going to take alot of grace’s to achieve an eternal reward. For everyone should live his/her life like this day is his/her last day on earth. If you new they were giving free gasoline out at your nearest gas station tomorrow starting at 6:00AM and only until it ran out, would you try to be the first in line or would you wait. Do you not need to read the instruction manual to completely understand and then completey gain all the benefits of that new “wigget” you purchased, or are you completely satisfied with only 1/3 of it’s usefulness even though you payed full price for it?
How is it you think you receive the Holy Spirit? Do you not think you need the Holy Spirit in your life to succeed in the Law? And do you think that everyone is saved because they call upon the Lord on their death bed. Read Mathew 7: 21-27. Also, Read Luke 7: 46-49.
However, one can ponder on Mathew 20: 1-16 and find hope for that person who did reoncile him/her self as they breathed there last breath here on this earth.
I find no comfort in knowing what is truth and not immediatly trying to act on it. And it’s not easy and it is impossible for human’s but not for God. Read Mark 10: 24-27 And who is God? God, as I have been instructed is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Is everyone who is baptised saved? NO! But you need a good foundation and baptismal is the very beginning of your salvation not neccesarily the end of your salvation.
No one builds a house in one day, at least not a house that is built on a strong foundation.

May God Bless you and may His Holy Spirit enlighten you on your journey!

 

[Robertwilliam]

My verses are a bit off, since I am using the NAB and your “friend” obviously is not. However it seems he is speaking about John’s referring to Jesus as speaking of belief in himself as necessary to salvation. This falls in line with the evangelical Protestant belief of asking Christ into your heaert as your personal Lord and savior, and then you’re saved.

Since John is the accepted traditional writer of this letter, let’s use another passage from John’s actual gospel. Here is what the Protestant NIV will say:

John 3:36: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

Now here is the Catholic NAB version:

John 3:36: “Whoever believes in Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Notice the difference in the underlined words. I fortunately have the New Interlinear Greek translation of the NT, and the correct word in the Greek is “disobey.” Why is this important? Because if the opposite of believing is disobedience, then believing must equal obedience, according to John and the rules of logic. This is borne out earlier in John ch.3, when Jesus talks quite a bit about this necessity of belief, but then goes on to speak of how those who do wicked things hate the light (the light already having been connect with Christ in chapter 1), and that whoever lives the truth comes to the light. Basically, according to Jesus, faith equals obedience, and particularly in this chapter, one of the things Jesus tells you to do is get baptized as well.

Hope this helps. I could have given you a buttload but I stuck with a passage in another book by John to help illustrate your friend’s problem.

He was not refering to the Gospel of St. John, he was refering to the 1st EPISTLE of St.John

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Thanks for the heads up. Again, read this portion of my post:

“Since John is the accepted traditional writer of this letter, let’s use *another *passage from John’s *actual *gospel. Here is what the Protestant NIV will say:”

It would seem that I made reference to John’s gospel because it was written by the same author as the epistle, hence it would be important to see how the author John actually sees “belief” in other contexts.

 

[PJM]

=bubbaman;

I apologize that I am not quoting scripture like everyone else here. But just like the previous post, you can take any one liner out of the bible and over analyze until it works out in your favor. You need to put them all together for them to work for your salvation, thats why it’s called the Holy Bible and not just a book of one liners.

Hi friend, wecome to CAF

While you’re point is valid as a possibility, nevertheless quoting “The Bible” on this Forum is far moer of an essential, than a mere option.

Non-catholic Christians are often “Bible Only” taught, and Catholism too is solidly founded on thee Bible. Therefore it becomes a “common language,” albiet with at times vastly differing understanding of what is actually being taught.

I try to circumvent the possibility of incorrect, or twisted interpretation by, as a general rule, providing not just one, but multiple verses with a common theme and thought. I did this in the “previous post,” and if you will go back and look at it you’ll find not one, but a half dozen different verses.

Any comment unsupported by doctrinal evidence is correctly [in my view] seen only as one’s own personal opinion, and one opinion seems no better than another.

Love nad prayers, and again WELCOME:thumbsup:

 

[BerhaneSelassie]

If a person is on his death bed…never been baptized, but has time to tell God he is sorry for all his sins and really means it in his heart…you mean he won’t make heaven? That would be so sad, when God wants to give us this Gift, if only we repent and obey His Word.
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans(Joan) T

This person will make it to heaven assuming that he is truly repentant. St Augustine, St Ambrose, St Thomas Aquinas and many other doctors of the Church would agree this man is saved by God’s grace thru his repentance/faith, and his desire to be with God, called “desire for baptism” or “baptism of desire”. Since the bible says “All who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved” and a few other verses along those lines

 

[tomjoans]

Nathan, I have been reading your posts here and in the John 3 discussions. I want to commend you in bringing to light some very key points and refuting haphazard remarks and beliefs that some folks make all the while citing Sacred Scripture out of context. Great job!!!

Hi Nathan,
What part of John 3 are you referring to…I’ve read it and the whole chapter almost says the same thing that we must believe…John 3:17, it says For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. v.18
it says, Whoever believes in Him will not be condemned, but whoever does not is already condemned, because he has not believed in the Name of the only Son of God.
In John 1:1 it says, In the beginning was the WORD, and the word was with GOD, and the
WORD was GOD. v.14, it says and the WORD became flesh (JESUS) and dwelt among
us and we saw His Glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of Grace and Truth. and in
Eph. 2:8,9 it says, For by grace are we saved through faith. To me, God, the Father,
sent His only son full of Grace and Truth so we might be saved. Am I not to believe that
God and Jesus are the Word, when God, the Father, Himself, has said these Word. I’m am very confused. Am I not to believe the Words of Jesus? Sorry, but I don’t understand.
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans(Joan)

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Hey Tom, perhaps I was not completely clear, and for that I apologize. It’s always best when we understand where the other person is coming from.

John 3:36: “Whoever *believes *in the Son has eternal life, but whoever *disobeys *the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

My main point was that Jesus’ definition of “belief” many times is interchangeable with “obedience.” Many (not all) Protestants have the idea that the head knowledge of Jesus Christ dying for their sins is what saves them. The passage that I pointed out in John is meant to show that Jesus *contrasts **disobedience *with belief. This would imply that *obedience *and belief are interchangeable.

There are many other passages througout the gospels that show that what Jesus meant by “belief” was more than what many would think. Because Jesus said to get baptized. Jesus said to believe who He was. Jesus said to repent. All these things together constitute “belief,” and this is how Catholics see it. Hence when a Catholic says “I *believe *in Jesus” and a Protestant (some, not all) says “I *believe *in Jesus” it can mean two crucially different things.

The reason, as I stated above, that I used the gospel of John specifically, is that John is the same author of both the epistles and the gospel. So if John equates belief with obedience in his gospel as I attempted to show, then it is reasonable (since he is the same author) to infer that he has a similiar understanding of “belief” in his epistle.

I hope that clears things up a bit. God Bless you.

 

[tomjoans]

Thanks for the heads up. Again, read this portion of my post:

“Since John is the accepted traditional writer of this letter, let’s use *another *passage from John’s *actual *gospel. Here is what the Protestant NIV will say:”

It would seem that I made reference to John’s gospel because it was written by the same author as the epistle, hence it would be important to see how the author John actually sees “belief” in other contexts.

I am quoting all my Scriptures from the St. Joseph’s Catholic Bible.
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans(Joan)

 

[tomjoans]

Hey Tom, perhaps I was not completely clear, and for that I apologize. It’s always best when we understand where the other person is coming from.

John 3:36: “Whoever *believes *in the Son has eternal life, but whoever *disobeys *the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

My main point was that Jesus’ definition of “belief” many times is interchangeable with “obedience.” Many (not all) Protestants have the idea that the head knowledge of Jesus Christ dying for their sins is what saves them. The passage that I pointed out in John is meant to show that Jesus *contrasts **disobedience *with belief. This would imply that *obedience *and belief are interchangeable.

There are many other passages througout the gospels that show that what Jesus meant by “belief” was more than what many would think. Because Jesus said to get baptized. Jesus said to believe who He was. Jesus said to repent. All these things together constitute “belief,” and this is how Catholics see it. Hence when a Catholic says “I *believe *in Jesus” and a Protestant (some, not all) says “I *believe *in Jesus” it can mean two crucially different things.

The reason, as I stated above, that I used the gospel of John specifically, is that John is the same author of both the epistles and the gospel. So if John equates belief with obedience in his gospel as I attempted to show, then it is reasonable (since he is the same author) to infer that he has a similiar understanding of “belief” in his epistle.

I hope that clears things up a bit. God Bless you.

Hi Nathan,
I think when one is truly born again, born of the Spirit God, we will be obediant when we believe. I know that is the way I live, as it is my last day. I love Jesus with all my heart…that why i’m constanltly studying. I’m not anything but a believer in Jesus and I do attend a Bible teaching church…but I do know that Jesus paid the price and once we’re born again the Word of God becomes alive. I kid you not, it’s amazing!!!
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans(Joan)

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I believe you Tom, and it is amazing.

The thing is, Peter makes reference to “baptism, which now saves you.”

Jesus says you MUST be born of water and the spirit.

In Mark he says repent, and be baptized.

You are placing the belief as the main criteria, and “if you believe, you will do this.” And yet belief as a form of mental knowledge is not enough. Even the demons believe and shudder. It requires baptism as well. It requires perseverance, since you can fall away from the faith.

Salvation to the Catholic is not a one-time event, it is a process, and we can forsake our inheritance if we are not faithful to Christ’s commandments (which include good works).

As for your comment about Bible-teaching Churches, I would point out that the Catholic Church compiled the Bible, that a Catholic picked the manuscripts used in the KJV translation, and that we have readings from the OT, NT epistles, gospels and Psalms every mass.

 

[tomjoans]

Hi,

I have found that often when confronted with a single verse [Jn.3:16] for example; the TRUTH is supplied by the same author. In this case Jn. 3:5 and 3:36.

Look at 1 Jn. 5: verses 2,3,4,5.,16,and 17. The term “Mortal” means literally “unto DEATH!”

You can also look at 1 John 3: verses 5,6,8,9,10

And 1 John 4:12

It is my experience that while tey accept what they present as “the truth” when presented with other contradictory evidence, they just ignore or make light of it. But go ahead and try.

With this much evidence you may wish to copy and pate a document you can just hand to this person?

Love and prayers,

Pat

Hi Pat,
I hope you don’t think that I’m disagreeing with any of the Scriptures you wrote, because i’m not. I believe every Word of God is Truth and I really mean every Word.
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans(Joan)

 

[PJM]

"bubbaman:

, post:22, topic:171470"]
Pat, The good thief displayed desire and believed in Jesus Christ as the promised one, but the blood he shed was not in name of Jesus Christ, and it was not innocent either. He even stated that he and his friend (the other thief ) were getting the punishment they deserved. For the blood that Christ shed was innocent blood - it’s true that there is no greater sacrifice than to lay ones life down for another. That’s why Christ accepted this sacrifice that all those who believed in Him would not parrish.
Mark 16: 16 - The man who believes in the Good News and accepts baptism will be saved, the man who refuses to believe in it will be condemed. This is the law that Christ set forth to his disiples right before He ascended to heaven.
Jesus was baptised not that He needed to be, he was sinless, for He was baptised to purify the water’s of baptismal. So that now everyone who is baptised is free from that original sin. That’s not to say once your baptised that you’ll never be prone to sin, but until than no one was allowed into the kingdom of God until all was fulfilled.
I think another arguement might be is that until all was fulfilled (Christ dying, Christ rising again and Christ ascending to heaven) that the new law was not yet set, and the old law still prevailed. The old law that Moses was instructed with, maybe he was a jew, doesn’t really matter what we think, only matters that He believed, and that Jesus, the Son of Man had the only authority at the time to forgive sins on earth. Mark 2: 8- 12.

I’m not trying to discredit you I just don’t know where the blood part comes from that you were referring to.
God Bless you and yours!

THANKS for keeping me honest:thumbsup:

The good thief in proclaiming the innocence of Jesus, was seen by Jesus who reads minds and hearts, as confessing his guilt, admitting remorse, recogonizing the Son of God and desiring to be united with Him. Thus the GT received the Baptism of Desire

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[bubbaman]

Hi friend, wecome to CAF

While you’re point is valid as a possibility, nevertheless quoting “The Bible” on this Forum is far moer of an essential, than a mere option.

Non-catholic Christians are often “Bible Only” taught, and Catholism too is solidly founded on thee Bible. Therefore it becomes a “common language,” albiet with at times vastly differing understanding of what is actually being taught.

I try to circumvent the possibility of incorrect, or twisted interpretation by, as a general rule, providing not just one, but multiple verses with a common theme and thought. I did this in the “previous post,” and if you will go back and look at it you’ll find not one, but a half dozen different verses.

Any comment unsupported by doctrinal evidence is correctly [in my view] seen only as one’s own personal opinion, and one opinion seems no better than another.

PJM,
Your point is well taken and I’ll do my best.
Thanks for having me!

God Bless!

 

[bubbaman]

This person will make it to heaven assuming that he is truly repentant. St Augustine, St Ambrose, St Thomas Aquinas and many other doctors of the Church would agree this man is saved by God’s grace thru his repentance/faith, and his desire to be with God, called “desire for baptism” or “baptism of desire”. Since the bible says “All who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved” and a few other verses along those lines

My Dear Friend,

What do you suppose Jesus meant in Mathew 7: 21-23, when he said, “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord did we not drive out deamons in your name.? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name.? Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoer’s.”
What if he died with mortal sin on his soul?
Are we to believe than that everyone is saved, regardless of how they lived their life and waited until the last second of their life to repent?
Please let me know where I might read this. My Catholic Catechism does not teach this, at least I am not aware of it. In the Catholic faith we have a sacrament called the sacrament of the sick that is administered when someone is on their death bed, and the sacrament of reconciliation can also be applied. It’s a very nice thought and comforting that all are saved regardless of the state their soul may be in at the time of death. But, I wouldn’t bet on it. Then again I am not the judge of who God decides who is righteous and who is not. I would agree that he might gain purgatory for his last second act of reconciliation. But their are those are their that don’t believe in purgatory.

May God Bless and keep under his protection!

 

[tomjoans]

Hey Tom, perhaps I was not completely clear, and for that I apologize. It’s always best when we understand where the other person is coming from.

John 3:36: “Whoever *believes *in the Son has eternal life, but whoever *disobeys *the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

My main point was that Jesus’ definition of “belief” many times is interchangeable with “obedience.” Many (not all) Protestants have the idea that the head knowledge of Jesus Christ dying for their sins is what saves them. The passage that I pointed out in John is meant to show that Jesus *contrasts **disobedience *with belief. This would imply that *obedience *and belief are interchangeable.

There are many other passages througout the gospels that show that what Jesus meant by “belief” was more than what many would think. Because Jesus said to get baptized. Jesus said to believe who He was. Jesus said to repent. All these things together constitute “belief,” and this is how Catholics see it. Hence when a Catholic says “I *believe *in Jesus” and a Protestant (some, not all) says “I *believe *in Jesus” it can mean two crucially different things.

The reason, as I stated above, that I used the gospel of John specifically, is that John is the same author of both the epistles and the gospel. So if John equates belief with obedience in his gospel as I attempted to show, then it is reasonable (since he is the same author) to infer that he has a similiar understanding of “belief” in his epistle.

I hope that clears things up a bit. God Bless you.

All I can say is I believe in Jesus and I live my life with Jesus always on my mind. I always ask the question “what would Jesus do in many things that comes up in my life”. I have my ministy (I give out little Bibles), which I think is what Jesus said to do, spread the Gospel… I try to be obediant to the Word of God and when I really knew in my heart I was sold out to Jesus and made Him the Lord of my life, my whole life changed…I became a new creature in Christ, then I knew I was ready for baptism and I did get Baptized. That was a few years ago, and I am still wanting to keep on reading the Word and obeying it. I do believe I am going to Heaven because Jesus shed His Blood so that I can have that assurance. He said it is finished and I believe Him. Sorry if you think I’m wrong.
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans(Joan)

 

[tomjoans]

I believe you Tom, and it is amazing.

The thing is, Peter makes reference to “baptism, which now saves you.”

Jesus says you MUST be born of water and the spirit.

In Mark he says repent, and be baptized.

You are placing the belief as the main criteria, and “if you believe, you will do this.” And yet belief as a form of mental knowledge is not enough. Even the demons believe and shudder. It requires baptism as well. It requires perseverance, since you can fall away from the faith.

Salvation to the Catholic is not a one-time event, it is a process, and we can forsake our inheritance if we are not faithful to Christ’s commandments (which include good works).

As for your comment about Bible-teaching Churches, I would point out that the Catholic Church compiled the Bible, that a Catholic picked the manuscripts used in the KJV translation, and that we have readings from the OT, NT epistles, gospels and Psalms every mass.

Hi Nathan
I know you must be born of water (flesh) and the Spirit (Spirit). That’s why when we’re born of the Spirit the scales are lifted from our eyes.
If you went before a Judge and someone paid the price for you to go free, would you have to pay the price again or would it be paid for and you would be free. Well, Jesus paid the price for our sins and we either believe it or reject it. He said it is finished, once and for all.
He is our Ticket to Heaven.
Love in Christ Jesus,
tomjoans(Joan)