I just can't reconcile some things

[mercygate]

Kristina P.:

This has been discussed elsewhere. While I appreciate this argument and used to use it, please enlighten me as to how encouraging someone to compound their sin rather than encouraging someone to cease sinning altogether, is in any way good for their soul? Also, how can encouraging contraception, which is a practice that only devalues human life and sexuality, lead to physical and spiritual health in the long run? The tough truth is that sometimes people need unpleasant consequences in order to turn them away from sin. The Church would not be showing love if She encouraged compounding sin in order to avoid those consequences.

If you do not believe contraception to be a sin, then you’re free to believe that. But presenting arguments as to why you think it *shouldn’t *be a sin doesn’t change whether or not it is. And, if it is a sin, then the Church should not promote it, regardless of the situation.

Time out from this thread to draw folks’ attention to the fact that Kristina P., our star performer on this thread, is a 23-year-old medical student and a 2nd lieutenant in the U.S. Army.

Now, back to topic.

Are y’all proud of her?

 

[Kristina_P]

mercygate:

Time out from this thread to draw folks’ attention to the fact that Kristina P., our star performer on this thread, is a 23-year-old medical student and a 2nd lieutenant in the U.S. Army.

Now, back to topic.

Are y’all proud of her?

Believe me, there’s no need to be proud. I’m currently taking time I should be studying for pre-holiday exams to mess around on this board… Glad you like the posts though.

 

[Superstar905]

msgstephen:

Superstar905:

The Church, will never offer a “safer” way to sin, and to think so, is beyond…nevermind. Sorry, I don’t mean to be harsh, but this teaching to any Christian should be obvious.
{QUOTE]

Yes. It is obvious. And it is obvious that if someone’s son decides to sin and go on a gay romp then he’s be better to use condoms.

So I take it then, that in the situation where a human being decides to engage in evil and risky behaviour, no one would be against the use of condoms even if the behaviour is sinful.

I suppose the “Church” has no specific teaching on that because it is morally absolutist and can only recommend/offer absintance.

When abstinance is ignored in these situations, the Church, then, has nothing to say? Or at least should admit the situation is outside its ability to comment?

That is no different, than someone telling you they are going to murder someone, but want to find a less painful way to do it. Think about it.

What would you do? Tell them, “NO, DON’T KILL ANYONE, THAT IS CRAZY AND WRONG”

or, as in what you are suggesting, would you tell them “WELL, RATHER THAN SHOOT THEM, PUT LETHAL POISON IN THEIR DRINK AND IT WILL HAPPEN WITHOUT THEM EVEN KNOWING IT”

 

[msgstephen]

Kristina P.:

This has been discussed elsewhere.

Well excuse me!
Kristina P.:

If you do not believe contraception to be a sin, then you’re free to believe that. But presenting arguments as to why you think it * shouldn’t * be a sin doesn’t change whether or not it is. And, if it is a sin, then the Church should not promote it, regardless of the situation.

I’m OK with contraception aspect. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about a whole different thing: disease control.

I do think the rhythm method can work for those who would control the number of children they have. It worked very well for my parents who wanted two and got two using the rhythm method. And I think there are a lot of reasons why condoms are not the answer, they encourage promiscuity etc. etc. But that’s not what I’m talking about.

But I don’t quite have a handle on what the Church thinks about the situation where condom use could cut down on the spread of disease even if the disease is being spread by sinful activity.

Take a parent who has a son who decides to embark on a gay career. Would they rather their son uses condoms and has condoms available? I think they would. Is the Church obliged to supply them. Of course not. Should the Church attempt to block the supply of condoms either through word or deed? I don’t think they should.

Do you or anyone know what the Church says regarding this situation? If it is anything but “well at least use condoms” please explain why. Does it have anything to do with degree? It is worse to add the sin of putting a partner to risk of disease etc. etc. therefore use condoms ??

Thanks.

 

[cheddarsox]

Mickey:

Children are directly from God. Do you equate them with money, technology, insurance policies, etc?
Render to Caesar what is Caesar’s.

Everything we have is from God. We are to trust God in all things. Are we not?

So, it is ok, even encouraged that we take every reasonable means necessary to stay healthy, we don’t just “trust God”. Or, if we do, we trust that God provided the current modes of modern medicine to help us take responsible care.

However when it comes to having children…all the rules change. I think that the ARGUMENT is incosistent, and thus a bad argument.

I do not equate children to money. But if you are trying to support an idea, it is best not to shore it up with a weak argument. There are enough strong reasons to do the right thing, that we don’t need to resort to weak ones.

cheddar

 

[mercygate]

msgstephen:

Do you or anyone know what the Church says regarding this situation? If it is anything but “well at least use condoms” please explain why. Does it have anything to do with degree? It is worse to add the sin of putting a partner to risk of disease etc. etc. therefore use condoms ??

Thanks.

If the Church were to say “at least use condoms,” it would be construed as “The Church says it’s OK to use condoms.” Period. It would be construed as the Church condoning the sinful behavior. The Church cannot say “at least use condoms.” She can only say: abstain from immoral acts that will cause the death of your soul – which, I am certain you will agree, is far more important than losing your life.

As Kristine P. and others have noted, the Church neither controls the market on condoms nor does it influence the morality of those who choose to live in violation of her standards.

You are actually “not far from the Kingdom,” msgstephen. Jesus did not say to the woman at the well, “keep on living as you have been, because I validate you through accepting your lifestyle.” He said “sin no more.” That’s what he still says today through his Church to those living culpably reckless lives, endangering themselves and others.

 

[Breton]

msgstephen:

But I don’t quite have a handle on what the Church thinks about the situation where condom use could cut down on the spread of disease even if the disease is being spread by sinful activity.

Take a parent who has a son who decides to embark on a gay career. Would they rather their son uses condoms and has condoms available? I think they would.
Thanks.

As a parent with a son about “to embark on a gay career” I would counsel him not to place too much faith in condoms as a protection against disease; they DO fail.

 

[CollegeKid]

Ryniev,

Just in case you don’t know, and in case this matters to you, all the major Protestant denominations were also against birth control before 1930.

 

[Truthseeker4]

Equating universal precautions in the medical world versus condoms in the sexual world is like comparing apples to oranges. Universal precautions in the medical world are to protect the provider, assistant and patient from each others sins and the results from a fallen world. Even with universal precautions used in the medical world is not 100% effective. Mistakes happen. Obtaining surgical procedures for life saving purposes is not a sin. There are two purposes for condom usage and that is preventing pregnancy and disease control. Condom usage in either scenario is not 100% foolproof. Only abstinence is. In the medical world one of the best ways that we know how to eradicate or control the spread of disease is containment. Condoms are not the best means to prevent the spread of disease. The only way to prevent the spread of STD’s is abstinence.

The Church is right on her stance and will forever be right on this issue. The Church must never sway from this stance even in the midst of persecution. They are discouraging sin. People who participate in sin may suffer the consequences of it.

Since you put your faith in Jesus please allow me to pose these questions to you.

Jesus is standing right there in front of you. You are asking him these very questions posed on this board. What do you think Jesus would say? Would Jesus encourage condom use? Would Jesus say go ahead and have sex with everyone and go ahead and use a condom since it will hamper the spread of disease?

Melissa

 

[masondoggy]

I think it is really sad that the OP started this thread because she is struggling with certain doctrines and asking for help, and someone has to come in and turn it into a debate.

Take the condom debate to a new thread. :nope:

 

[hilde_the_dog]

masondoggy I agree. Ryniev has a problem and is wondering what to do about it, not seeking to start a fight. Ryniev is in RCIA to learn some of the Church’s teachings, undoubtably the whole of the Church cannot be taught in 8 months. Part of learning is questioning.

Ryniev has a struggle and is seeking advice and the truth. This whole thread feels like we have invited our girlfriend over to meet the family instead she walks into a family argument.

I may be wrong but the OP seemed to be asking what to do about a personal struggle on church teaching not the virtue or lack thereof of condoms.

Serious, does the CC have an equally adament position of Needle exchange? I’m going to start a new thread on that topic.

Ryniev stay in RCIA, talk to your sponsor and Priest, and continue to pray. And at Easter if you can’t obey the Church don’t join.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Ryniev:

I’ve tried posting this on the Ask an Apologist section three times but it’s never shown up:

I’m in RCIA and I love learning about the faith and I like the people I’m learning with. However, after praying and searching for several weeks I’ve come to the conclusion that I just don’t believe what the Church teaches regarding birth control. Several people have told me just to join because “everybody ignores it” anyway. However, I’d rather be outside the Catholic Church with my integrity than inside being a big hypocrite. Heaven knows the Church doesn’t need anymore dissenters.

I’ve looked long and hard at this issue and I understand the Church’s position, I just don’t agree with it and some other key issues (such as condom use to prevent the spread of AIDS). I don’t want to debate my postions rather I’m wondering since I’ve already gone through the Rite of Acceptance do I have some sort of obligation to continue? Should I make an appointment with the Priest and tell him why I’m dropping out? Talk to my sponsor? I hate thinking I’m letting people down or disappointing them but that would be a stupid reason to join!

I guess maybe I should have resolved these issues before starting RCIA but I was honestly hoping that I would be able to come to some sort of agreement if I studied and prayed hard enough but I just can’t. I’m very saddened and feel as if I’m in kind of a limbo.

I think that you should continue the class and take these “conflicts” to prayer asking for guidance and counsel from the Holy Spirit. If the moment prior to the Easter Vigil, you aren’t comfortable submitting and obeying the Church on these matters (it is ok to not yet agree so long as you will personally submit and obey) you can just tell Father that you aren’t ready yet. Then continue to attend Mass, pray for Spiritual Communion when the others receive the Eucharist and you come up for a Blessing, and keep taking the issue to prayer (before the Real Presence in Adoration is IMHO a way to speed up the discernment! But I might be deluded as in reality it takes place according to God’s time and not ours anyway )

My brother-in-law went thru RCIA three times before he finally go confirmed and my cousin’s wife did it twice. There is no stigma in passing at this time.

There are alot of Catholics who don’t agree with 100% of the Church’s Teachings and that is ok so long as they are wrestling with the issue in prayer and in the meantime submitting and obeying while yet not agreeing. In fact, the conscious act to submit and obey in the face of disagreement is redemptive in its own right. And, it is in these internal disagreements that we have real cause to go directly to the Holy Spirit for help in discernment. It is these disagreements that can actually bring us closer to God.

If we always were in a position of complete communion with all the Church teaches, we’d cease to be sinners. Your situation is such that you are struggling outside the Church and trying to deal with sans the Sacraments. Your challenge is much more difficult than a Catholic’s as we deal w/ it within the confines of the Sacraments and the efficacious Graces that come to us through the Sacraments.

I don’t know your age but there was a time when the list of my disagreements w/ Church Teaching was a list that was longer than most cradle Catholics. But over years of prayer and discernment, I’ve been whittling it down to such a small list I can’t even think of one right now. Unfortunately, I’ve exchanged the “cross of disagreement” to one of a “cross of conformance”. Frankly, it was easier before!

 

[Ryniev]

Sorry I haven’t been back! I’ve been very busy this week but I did call the parish Priest and made and appointment and we talked at length yesterday. He explained the Church’s position on birth control in greater depth and we also talked about some other stuff that had been bothering me. I was totally honest with him and honestly, I thought he was going to tell me that it would be best if I dropped out but he didn’t. He encouraged me to stay in and attend his class on Christian Morality, Ethics and Decision making in Feb. He told me the same thing that you all basically did which was to take my time, don’t feel pressured to join and just pray. It really set my mind at ease, although I know if I had to join today, I couldn’t do it.

 

[mercygate]

Ryniev:

Sorry I haven’t been back! I’ve been very busy this week but I did call the parish Priest and made and appointment and we talked at length yesterday. He explained the Church’s position on birth control in greater depth and we also talked about some other stuff that had been bothering me. I was totally honest with him and honestly, I thought he was going to tell me that it would be best if I dropped out but he didn’t. He encouraged me to stay in and attend his class on Christian Morality, Ethics and Decision making in Feb. He told me the same thing that you all basically did which was to take my time, don’t feel pressured to join and just pray. It really set my mind at ease, although I know if I had to join today, I couldn’t do it.

Heck. It took me 30 years. Now, I don’t recommend that. But it has to be on His time; not ours. It’s also backwards with me. I was drawn to the Church because of her position on contraception. My DH & I lived “like Catholics” for decades before becoming Catholic. Godspeed

 

[kellyr73]

The church is infallible. what more do you need?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I’ve tried posting this on the Ask an Apologist section three times but it’s never shown up:

I’m in RCIA and I love learning about the faith and I like the people I’m learning with. However, after praying and searching for several weeks I’ve come to the conclusion that I just don’t believe what the Church teaches regarding birth control. Several people have told me just to join because “everybody ignores it” anyway. However, I’d rather be outside the Catholic Church with my integrity than inside being a big hypocrite. Heaven knows the Church doesn’t need anymore dissenters.

I’ve looked long and hard at this issue and I understand the Church’s position, I just don’t agree with it and some other key issues (such as condom use to prevent the spread of AIDS). I don’t want to debate my postions rather I’m wondering since I’ve already gone through the Rite of Acceptance do I have some sort of obligation to continue? Should I make an appointment with the Priest and tell him why I’m dropping out? Talk to my sponsor? I hate thinking I’m letting people down or disappointing them but that would be a stupid reason to join!

I guess maybe I should have resolved these issues before starting RCIA but I was honestly hoping that I would be able to come to some sort of agreement if I studied and prayed hard enough but I just can’t. I’m very saddened and feel as if I’m in kind of a limbo.

When it comes to the Churches Moral teachings we can disagree with them privately as long as we abide by them.

I may not agree with the state that the speed limit needs to be 40 on a particular road, but I’m required to not go faster that that. If you feel that you will not ba able to abide by the moral teachings then you should not continue at this time. You know what the Church teaches, speak with the priest. A caution is that many priests use a “follow your conscience” attitude which can be even more confusing. Your conscience knows what the Church teaches on ABC.

 

[Al_Masetti]

What you need to do is to learn how to invoke the Holy Spirit … for direction and guidance.

Come Holy Spirit … fill the hearts of Thy faithful and enkindle in them the fire of Thy love. Holy Spirit, abide in me and grant that I may ever abide in thee.

Mary, Seat of Wisdom, pray for us.

“Lord, carry me. Hold me in Your arms, forgive me my sins, and make me the way You want me to be.”

Repeat that prayer until it becomes habitual.

 

[Trad_Catholic_1]

I think I got the idea from the NDP.

People complain about the Church’s position on condoms *. Sometimes not knowing fully what it is. I probably am off but …

… Here’s another try:

The problem, say, in the sub-Saharah, is that people, whether the Church likes it or not, are going to have sex. They did then, do now and will tomorrow, both inside and outside marriage and even with members of the same sex.

This leads to a situation where disease can spread. If people at least used condoms more, then diseases would spread more slowly. I realize from the stats condoms are not 100% even when used conscienciously.

But the Church is absolutist. In marriage, a person would use condoms only to prevent pregnmancy, which the Church disapproves of, or outside marriage to sin, which the Church disapproves of. So either way, the Church cannot condone handing them out.

Nevertheless, they probably should be handed out to sinners, at least as something that will slow the spread of a deadly disease.

Comments?*

Now this is the attitude which I attack. It is the huge heresy of Precedent. It is the view that because we have got into a mess
we must grow messier to suit it; that because we have taken a wrong turn some time ago we must go forward and not backwards;
that because we have lost our way we must lose our map also; and because we have missed our ideal, we must forget it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’ve tried posting this on the Ask an Apologist section three times but it’s never shown up:

I’m in RCIA and I love learning about the faith and I like the people I’m learning with. However, after praying and searching for several weeks I’ve come to the conclusion that I just don’t believe what the Church teaches regarding birth control. Several people have told me just to join because “everybody ignores it” anyway. However, I’d rather be outside the Catholic Church with my integrity than inside being a big hypocrite. Heaven knows the Church doesn’t need anymore dissenters.

I’ve looked long and hard at this issue and I understand the Church’s position, I just don’t agree with it and some other key issues (such as condom use to prevent the spread of AIDS). I don’t want to debate my postions rather I’m wondering since I’ve already gone through the Rite of Acceptance do I have some sort of obligation to continue? Should I make an appointment with the Priest and tell him why I’m dropping out? Talk to my sponsor? I hate thinking I’m letting people down or disappointing them but that would be a stupid reason to join!

I guess maybe I should have resolved these issues before starting RCIA but I was honestly hoping that I would be able to come to some sort of agreement if I studied and prayed hard enough but I just can’t. I’m very saddened and feel as if I’m in kind of a limbo.

Before doing anything to terribly dramatic, like dropping out of RCIA, I would suggest reading ?Theology of the Body for Beginners by Christopher West.

Also, Catholicity.com may have a free download of a talk he gave which you could listen to.

Hope this helps.

 

[PepeRoni]

Now this is the attitude which I attack. It is the huge heresy of Precedent. It is the view that because we have got into a mess
we must grow messier to suit it; that because we have taken a wrong turn some time ago we must go forward and not backwards;
that because we have lost our way we must lose our map also; and because we have missed our ideal, we must forget it.

Not only that, but hand them out to sinners? The church isn’t preventing “sinners” from getting condoms.

• If they’re having sex outside of marriage, I doubt they’re saying “I can’t use a condom because its against my religion”
• If they’re having sex with someone of the same sex, they’re not concerned about the ban on condoms frmo the church
• if they already have aids and insist on having sex with their wives, I think they are unconcerned with the ban on condoms

I don’t get how the church catches so much heat for this. Are we really to believe that people obiviously unconcerned with sexual morality are citing the Church’s lack of approval for not wearing condoms?

Farfetched indeed.