I just had a revelation

[JackVk]

Of course, to make the claim “I don’t know a damned thing,” it is necessary to know several things:

1. That there are things to be known
2. That you do not know any things to be known
3. That you know how to write the language you are writing the sentence in

Of course, it would be trivial to demonstrate that you know lots of things: you know your own name, you know that you are on a planet in the Milky Way galaxy, you know the country that you live in, you (probably) know the names of the people who hold important positions in the country in which you reside, you know how to speak the local language, you know how to read…

I could go on and on, but the obvious point is that you know lots of things. In fact, the human race knows plenty of things.

Now, if all you mean is that there’s a lot you don’t know (because there is so much to be known) – then first of all, say that – but second of all, that’s not just the beginning of wisdom: that’s the beginning of seeing the bleeding obvious.

I have a suggestion for you: Lighten up and have a sense of humor.

 

[The_Exodus]

I can only smile at those who have tried to give me some syllogism to “prove” to me I know things. Obviously, I can play word games too: dialectics is easy. I was simply describing an overwhelming emotional experience I had the other day which seemed sort of transcendental. Incommunicable as well, so no point in trying really.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

 

[MindOverMatter2]

To know that you do not know is the beginning of wisdom. Thanks for letting me know that I am not alone!

Ironically I find this idea to representative of the irrational belief that one cannot have true knowledge; the consequences being that all knowledge is tautological.

 

[AntiTheist]

Ironically I find this idea to representative of the irrational belief that one cannot have true knowledge; the consequences being that all knowledge is tautological.

Yes. There is an argument that claims that “knowledge” is nothing more than a tautology, thus no people really have knowledge, and thus no one knows anything at all, and thus everyone is justified in using “faith” to come to whatever conclusions that they find most appealing.

It’s a sickening attempt to put actual knowledge on the same level as feelings, and it’s typical disingenuous religious claptrap: just pretend that everyone is equally clueless; then any old silly story is equally likely to be true.

Hopefully, everyone can see what’s wrong with that argument.

 

[You]

Yes. There is an argument that claims that “knowledge” is nothing more than a tautology, thus no people really have knowledge, and thus no one knows anything at all, and thus everyone is justified in using “faith” to come to whatever conclusions that they find most appealing.

It’s a sickening attempt to put actual knowledge on the same level as feelings, and it’s typical disingenuous religious claptrap: just pretend that everyone is equally clueless; then any old silly story is equally likely to be true.

Hopefully, everyone can see what’s wrong with that argument.

But what is knowledge anyway? Here is the universe popped into existence from nobody knows where and for all we know knowledge never existed before. Is it possible to know if our knowledge is normal knowledge if its never had a precedent?

 

[ADouglass]

Through reading this thread I have come to laugh because of myself. I think, however, AntiTheist had a good point in his use of syllogisms. But to answer the question “why not just say that there is a lot one doesn’t know, instead of saying that one doesn’t know a damn thing?” Well one reason is because perhaps one doesn’t think one would get attention if all one said is that there is a lot one doesn’t know. Perhaps we can all be put to rest if The Exodus just clarified what he means in the most basic of ways.

 

[AntiTheist]

But what is knowledge anyway? Here is the universe popped into existence from nobody knows where and for all we know knowledge never existed before. Is it possible to know if our knowledge is normal knowledge if its never had a precedent?

This is exactly the kind of wooly thinking that leads people down the road to, “Well, I guess no one knows anything at all! So I’ll just choose to believe whatever silly junk I want to just because it touches my heart.”

This kind of thinking ultimately leads to the position that Scientology and the beliefs of the hobo raving about alien invasions are just as “valid” as those of anybody else. After all, if we don’t know what “knowledge” is, we can’t say that our leading scientists have any more claim to truth than that hobo.

Thankfully, we can put this issue to rest easily. Regardless of what our knowledge “really is” or whether it’s “normal knowledge” (what in the heck do those phrases mean?), the fact of the matter is that we do know things. It is trivially easy to demonstrate that you know your name, you know what a computer is, you know how to understand English, you know how to type, you know how to read, how to write, you know which way is up and which way is down, you know which season we’re in right now, etc.

Whatever knowledge may or may not be, it’s obvious that we have it. The fact that we don’t have “absolute knowledge” or we may not know what knowledge “really is” or have “normal knowledge” is completely irrelevant, even if those phrases actually meant anything, which they don’t.

Don’t confuse yourself with philosophy.

 

[Touchstone]

The other day I had an epiphany, which was this:

I don’t know a damn thing.

Having just given up on on a software bug I’ve been chasing through my code for FOUR DAYS (I will just rewrite the whole bit from the ground up now), I can sympathize with that sentiment right now, if in a different way.

Doubt is the foundation of knowledge, so in a way, you are on very high ground – you are actively doubting. That’s the fundamental stance. We get set back to square one by forgetting that doubt is the measure of knowledge. What we accept credulously pollutes all of our knowledge.

I get this is just a whimsical observation on your part, so don’t take this response as more than a riff on that.

And for all the wise guys who are itching to respond “How do yo know? Huh?”

Because I’ve applied doubt to that idea and every other one I can consider, of course. I have doubted doubt as the foundation of knowledge, and those doubts are assuaged, overcome by the evidence and the model performance of doubting.

-TS

 

[Betterave]

I can only smile at those who have tried to give me some syllogism to “prove” to me I know things. Obviously, I can play word games too: dialectics is easy. I was simply describing an overwhelming emotional experience I had the other day which seemed sort of transcendental. Incommunicable as well, so no point in trying really.

So where does that leave you? Are you suffering from Sartrean nausea? Are you looking for a cure?

 

[LogisticsBranch]

The other day I had an epiphany, which was this:

I don’t know a damn thing.

Hi Exodus. I’m glad you talked about your epiphany. I can relate to your epiphany. I thought my puppy Grace wouldn’t be able to open my bedroom folding doors. I didn’t realize what a dog can do with it’s nose! The little stinker dragged all my shoes out of the closet and decided to chew on a couple of my favorite ones. I think everyone has had an epiphany at one time or another. I recall reading an article from NASA in 2008 about Robert Jastrow, the founding director of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies that was written by Jim Hansen. This is the quote from the article: Of Dr. Jastrow’s several best-selling books, perhaps the favorite is one mentioned by our own Michael Allison: “I first heard of the Goddard Institute as a college sophomore in, of all places, a course on science and religion, where I read Red Giants and White Dwarfs. What an epiphany it was to learn that we and our world are made of the nucleosynthetic remnants of exploded stars!” Dr. Jastrow, with Malcolm Thompson, also wrote a pioneering textbook Astronomy: Fundamentals and Frontiers, and he has just completed, with Michael Rampino, an astrobiology text Stars, Planets and Life: The Evolution of the Universe.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20080303/

Have a wonderful day. I need to catch up on a few other topics on another day but wanted to first express my thanks to you.

 

[Luke_K]

I can only smile at those who have tried to give me some syllogism to “prove” to me I know things. Obviously, I can play word games too: dialectics is easy. I was simply describing an overwhelming emotional experience I had the other day which seemed sort of transcendental. Incommunicable as well, so no point in trying really.

It seems like most people have had a transcendental experience that they think no one else could ever understand. Those experiences are common enough, though they feel very personal when one has them.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

Having just given up on on a software bug I’ve been chasing through my code for FOUR DAYS (I will just rewrite the whole bit from the ground up now), I can sympathize with that sentiment right now, if in a different way.

Doubt is the foundation of knowledge, so in a way, you are on very high ground – you are actively doubting. That’s the fundamental stance. We get set back to square one by forgetting that doubt is the measure of knowledge. What we accept credulously pollutes all of our knowledge.

I get this is just a whimsical observation on your part, so don’t take this response as more than a riff on that.

And for all the wise guys who are itching to respond “How do yo know? Huh?”

Because I’ve applied doubt to that idea and every other one I can consider, of course. I have doubted doubt as the foundation of knowledge, and those doubts are assuaged, overcome by the evidence and the model performance of doubting.

-TS

Interesting. Thanks for sharing Touchstone what you thought about the OP’s message. I shared too as you can see above. Sorry to hear about your software bug . If I have any problems I have a friend who handles it.

 

[The_Exodus]

It’s interesting to see some of the replies here. It reminds me of the saying which goes something like “ask someone what he thinks Jesus meant when he said so and so, and you’ll find out more about the person than about Jesus.”

I wasn’t at all referring to an experience of “doubt,” as someone (I believe Touchstone) touched on (though he was “riffing” ). Indeed, it was a moment of extreme clarity. “I don’t know a damn thing” was a positive, emotional surge that sort of put my mind outside itself. It wasn’t frightening or doubtful in the least – or nauseating (though I’ve had such experiences.) It was sort of, shall I say, liberating? It wasn’t even an idea that could be subjected to “evidence.” I suppose if I had thought of the word evidence at the time I would have broken into laughter.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

It seems like most people have had a transcendental experience that they think no one else could ever understand. Those experiences are common enough, though they feel very personal when one has them.

Of course it seems to us tht no one can understand them. They take place in a realm that monological materialism even denies exists. Industrial ontology, the actual culture of today looks at and uses only the surface of what IS. The entire depth of the world as experienced internally is said to not exist, while its very faculties are used to advance its complexities of shallowness and the fear and greed that inevitable follows.

Language there is also inadequate. In this kind of interpretation we are right against the wall of the fact that language is symbolic and cannot be, it can only point, like a road sign. And that is why interpretative methods are so vital. and yet that skill is nowadays mowed under the machinery of industry and finance.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

It’s interesting to see some of the replies here. It reminds me of the saying which goes something like “ask someone what he thinks Jesus meant when he said so and so, and you’ll find out more about the person than about Jesus.”

Yep, that is so. It is why I like to go to modern art shows and use the pieces there as a Rorschach test. That can be fun!

I wasn’t at all referring to an experience of “doubt,” as someone (I believe Touchstone) touched on (though he was “riffing” ). Indeed, it was a moment of extreme clarity. “I don’t know a damn thing” was a positive, emotional surge that sort of put my mind outside itself. It wasn’t frightening or doubtful in the least – or nauseating (though I’ve had such experiences.) It was sort of, shall I say, liberating? It wasn’t even an idea that could be subjected to “evidence.” I suppose if I had thought of the word evidence at the time I would have broken into laughter.

And that state is exactly why koans are used, along with other such devices. Once you can have the experience of sitting on the cusp of paradox, simply as awareness and without identifying anything as “mine,” you can have a a unique insight about yourself that reason alone can’t give you. And that is the doorway to Spirituality beyond the litigious nature of dogmatic religion.

You have a unique opportunity. I wonder what you will do with it?

 

[AntiTheist]

Of course it seems to us tht no one can understand them. They take place in a realm that monological materialism even denies exists …] The entire depth of the world as experienced internally is said to not exist

I don’t think that anyone would deny that inner feelings exist, including strong inner feelings that feel like they’re “transcendent” or whatnot.

The thing is, those feelings do not demonstrate that there’s anything transcendent or metaphysical going on. There’s no reason to think that they’re not just emergent properties of the brain, like the rest of consciousness seems to be.

 

[John7]

I don’t know a damn thing.

but he is there
for he was and is not

 

[MindOverMatter2]

You have a unique opportunity. I wonder what you will do with it?

Follow Jesus.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

It’s interesting to see some of the replies here. It reminds me of the saying which goes something like “ask someone what he thinks Jesus meant when he said so and so, and you’ll find out more about the person than about Jesus.”

I wasn’t at all referring to an experience of “doubt,” as someone (I believe Touchstone) touched on (though he was “riffing” ). Indeed, it was a moment of extreme clarity. “I don’t know a damn thing” was a positive, emotional surge that sort of put my mind outside itself. It wasn’t frightening or doubtful in the least – or nauseating (though I’ve had such experiences.) It was sort of, shall I say, liberating? It wasn’t even an idea that could be subjected to “evidence.” I suppose if I had thought of the word evidence at the time I would have broken into laughter.

As far as I am concerned, it wasn’t ‘an act of revealing divine truth’ which can be considered revelation when you said, “I don’t know a damn thing” which implied that it was merely a ‘an enlightening or astonishing disclosure’ since your epiphany was not founded on divine truth. I’ve found out more about you then you know about Jesus. Let’s remember that epiphany and revelation do have many different meanings. And may I remind you it isn’t polite to scoff at people who have contributed to your topic.