I just saw the movie "For Greater Glory" with my family, and it was a great movie

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Thanks for your comment. Glad you liked the movie “For Greater Glory.” It is a well made movie with a cast of great actors.

Yet, compare the Cristeros War to what Jesus and his apostles and early disciples did as described in the New Testament. Anything like the Cristeros War carried out by Christ or the Christians in the New Testament?

In the period when the Church was wed to the State, the Church was heavily involved in lots of violence that could rightly be called religious violence. But the Church is no longer wed to the State. The Vatican II Council constituted a divorce of the Church and the State. That is made clear in its Decree on Religious Liberty, and in other Vatican II documents as well. That Council put the Church back into its pre-Constantinism state.

Today, some have a new solution. They want to have the Church marry a Party, and then have the Party take over the State. The result I see is that in the U.S. many Catholics can hardly distinguish between Party and Church.
Sorry, bro. Didn’t read your reply. I have decided that I do not care about what you have to say because it is not relevant to the thread, IMHO. The OP saw the movie and wanted to chat about it with others who saw it and liked it. I saw the movie and wanted to chat about it with others who saw it and liked it. You seem to have hijacked this thread and honestly you have pretty much spoiled it and ruined it for anyone who just wanted to talk about their theater experience. Can I buy you a ticket so you can go see “For Greater Glory”? It really is a good movie and whether you agree with what happened all those years ago or not, it is STILL a good movie that pretty much faithfully represents the occurrences of the Cristero War. What sort of character flaw do you have that won’t let you allow a topic about a film move forward without you stepping all over it? I get your point, I really do, but I believe that the OP just wanted to chat about a good movie that he/she had seen. And so did I. Why can’t you see that? Why must you sidetrack the discussion with all of your non-movie thoughts? Can’t you go talk about how bad you think the Cristero War was in another thread? We’d like to talk about the movie, if you please. You’re sort of being rude, dude. Well, not sort of. You are totally being rude. “Church and party and state and blah, blah, blah” Whatever, bro.“For Greater Glory” is a good movie. Our Lord would not have taken up arms. Gotcha. Can you leave us be now so we can chat cinema for a while? My goodness, friend-let it go already.
Love,
Jim
 
I thought a Catholic martyr was a Catholic willing to die for the True Faith, not someone willing to kill for the True Faith.
This martrydom is depicted in the movie:

*José Luis Sánchez del Río was born on March 28, 1913. A standard-bearer for the army, in January of 1928 he was captured by government forces, who ordered him to renounce his faith in Christ, under threat of death. He refused. To break his resolve, he was made to watch the hanging of another Cristero that they had in custody, but instead José encouraged the man, saying that they would soon meet again in Heaven. In prison, José prayed the rosary daily and wrote an emotional letter to his mother, saying that he was ready to fulfill the will of God. His father attempted to raise a ransom to save him, but was not able to appease the government in time.

On the evening of February 10, 1928: According to one witness: “They cut the bottom of his feet and obliged him to walk around the town toward the cemetery. They also at times cut him with a machete until he was bleeding from several wounds. He cried and moaned with pain, but he did not give in. At times they stopped him and said, ‘If you shout, “Death to Christ the King” we will spare your life.’ José would only shout, ‘I will never give in. Viva Cristo Rey!’” At the place of execution, he was stabbed numerous times with bayonets. The commander was so furious that he pulled out his pistol and shot José. According to one source, before he died he drew a cross in the dirt and kissed it.*

Other martyrs depicted in the movie were priests pulled from their churches and shot or even hanged in their churches. These priests had organized no uprising and had killed no one. They were murdered for being priests.

Again, if you look at those Cristeros who have been recognized as martyrs, you will find that they, too, were murdered. Yet you seem to imply that anyone who would use violence to stop these murders is not acting in defense of the people, but is a murderer himself.

Furthermore, you don’t seem to think the Cristeros themselves ever disapproved of how any of the others chose to wage this fight. This is also not true. The movie does not make out all acts of violence against the enemy to be virtuous, but rather makes a distinction between violence that is necessary and violence that is not acceptable. A priest with a motive of revenge is particularly singled out as having an unfit reason to fight.

I didn’t think the movie glamourized the priests who chose to take up arms, although apparently it white-washed the proclivities of one the priest-generals by making his character a combination of more than one priest who took up arms.

The priests who took up arms were not among those beatified by the Church, but rather were priests killed because they continuted to offer the sacraments instead of fleeing the country.

Again…no one on this forum is glamourizing the situation of Catholics taking up arms to defend religious liberties, but you don’t seem to think that it is right to take up arms against a government that is murdering members of the clergy. Again, I ask you: Which war since the advent of Christianity has been a just war? It doesn’t have to be a Christian war. Pick any of them. According to you, which ones have been just? Any?

You imply that such a thing as a just war is possible, but you don’t seem to be able to name a single one that one has ever been fought. Is it possibly because if any war has been waged for just reasons, this one was? Remember, we are not saying the war could not have been avoided or should not have been avoided at all costs or that any means used by the fighters were justified. We are saying that when things came to what they came to, the elements of a just war seem to have been there. If not, name a war that was just.
 
Archbishop Chaput ends his review by saying:

We Americans in 2012 live in a different land in a different time. We’re blessed with freedoms the Cristeros could only imagine. But those freedoms depend on our willingness to defend them. Religious liberty is never guaranteed by anything but our own vigilance. Even in this country, contempt for religious faith, and especially the Catholic faith, is alive and well.

“For Greater Glory” captures with memorable power and grace where that bigotry can lead — and the cost of resisting it.

Thus, like many, Archbishop Chaput relates the Cristeros War to the current HHS Mandate situation in the USA.

I can’t be comfortable with any such connection, since many people will draw the conclusion that taking up arms against the federal government of the USA over this HHS Mandate could be acceptable or justifiable. To me, such an idea is just insane!
Nowhere does Archbishop Chaput recommend taking up arms. He does say that religious liberty is never guaranteed by anything but our own vigilance.

If we are vigiliant in protecting religious liberty, there is no need to take up arms.

The story of the Cristero’s reminds me of the French peasants of the Vendee region of France following the French Revolution when the Church was brutally oppressed, priests killed and imprisoned, churches closed, monasteries seized. The government wished to destroy the Church, just as the Mexican government did in the time of the Cristeros.

The French peasants had to recruit leaders from the nobility to help their cause. In the end, they were not successful, partly because after winning battles against the French Army, they tended to go back home and tend to business rather than press on toward Paris.

The thing is, when the government takes it upon itself to destroy the Church, plain Catholics take it as a duty to resist. The time to resist the loss of liberty is at the outset, when violence can be avoided.

I would also note that Joan of Arc, a saint of the Church, led an army and fought a war.
 
Back to the thread: This film is rated R for a reason. The violence is emotionally wrenching. There are adolescents who will not be ready for the violence depicted or for the subtleties the film implies. I think if the film is taken in a black and white way, the viewer will have missed the intended message.
 
Hi all,

I just saw the movie. It was really great and the actors were good.
Eude
 
I liked it also and feel it is important for people who wonder why us Catholics in America are yelling about the HHS Mandate being an attack on religion AND on AMERICAN FREEDOM are so upset
 
Are we headed toward some sort of religious conflict here in the USA? I hope not. There seem to be people within the Church and secularists outside the Church who are aching for a showdown. Both sides are so sure they are right. The Church folks think they have righteousness and God on their side. The secularists believe that they have the basic principle of American separation of church and state on their side. They see Catholicism as a relic of medieval times that is waiting for an opportunity to turn back the clock and try to impose its distinct teachings (e. g., re birth control) on the larger society.
Code:
 Catholics have done very well in this country, which obviously was founded by Protestants. 55 of the 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence were Protestants. Today the majority of the Supreme Court are Catholics (6), with three Jews. Not a single Protestant. All nine were appointed by Protestant presidents! I think this is proof that there is no war on the Church. Biden is vice-president. The first Catholic chaplain in Congress serves in the House. Etc. All this even though Catholics are roughly 20% of Americans, and 50-75% of those are less than faithful when it comes to regular attendance at Mass,

 "For Greater Glory" may stir Catholic passions in some but to even hint that anything like it is coming here to America is silly. I worry that the hierarchy is going to target one 'enemy' after another, including Obama, the Girl Scouts and the nuns! Hasn't it enough trouble with the continuing sex scandal, financial malfeasance in the Vatican, the leaking of Vatican papers by the Pope's butler, apparent rough competition within the Vatican, etc.?
 
Catholics have done very well in this country, which obviously was founded by Protestants. 55 of the 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence were Protestants. Today the majority of the Supreme Court are Catholics (6), with three Jews. Not a single Protestant. All nine were appointed by Protestant presidents! I think this is proof that there is no war on the Church. Biden is vice-president. The first Catholic chaplain in Congress serves in the House. Etc. All this even though Catholics are roughly 20% of Americans, and 50-75% of those are less than faithful when it comes to regular attendance at Mass.
I suspect that Catholics have been widely accepted into the corridors of power precisely because 50-75% of those are less than faithful when it comes to regular attendance at Mass, and because many in politics obviously are not taking their cues from the Vatican.
 
About te movie I want to say that is based in the story written by Jean Meyer, a resarcher and proffesor of the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico, at least one identified martir in the movie is now a Saint, and hes is José, the boy that was killed in the cementery, and the martirdom was as shown in the movie, the innocent federal soldiers (according to some) skinned his feet and after that, made him walk to the cementery where he was killed.
Reading Bartolome posts I just got a stomach ache. What happens in Mexico with anything to do with the Church. is alwyas accompied by black legends, because since Benito Juarez all pf our politicians have been masons.
Plutarco Elías Calles did the most stupid thing against the mexican people, He is well protected since he is the founder of the National Revolutinaty Party, now called Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI
Plutarco Elías calles did not make any law, this laws were made iin 1855-1859 by Benito Juarez and confirmed in the constitution of 1917.
The question is why a country that was 100% catholic had this laws. Before Calles nobody had been so stupid to try to apply them. And yes they forbade public and private religious acts. (Tis law is just now in the process of being modified.)
And yes Calles actions were to kill prists and catholics.
About what Bartolome says about the church and the europeans and the richs. that is just official lias.
Since Spaniards came I just will mention som names that show how false those statmens invented by masons are.
Fray Bartolome de las Casas, Indian protector
Fray Bernardino de Sahagun, missionary
Fray Pedro de Gante, educator and missionary
Fray Antonio Alcalde, Bsihop of Merida and Guadalajara, Whith his own money, founder of the Real y Pontificia Universidad de Guadalajara, Founder of the Casa de la misericordia, Now city hospital. builder of Litte houses for the poor. The principal AVE of Guadalajara is named with his name.
Vasco de Quiroga, bishop of Valladolid, now Morelia, indians called him Tata VAsco (Dad Vasco in Purepecha) He shows the indians of diferent villages to work in different crafts so the could trade between them, Quiroga is no a town famous for its guitars and other wood products.
These are no exceptions, I could continue this list for long.
Also wanted to tell everibody that official Mexican History was written by mason or was ordered by masons.
I hope this clarify this about Mexico.
Sorry for my english
 
About te movie I want to say that is based in the story written by Jean Meyer, a resarcher and proffesor of the Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico, at least one identified martir in the movie is now a Saint, and hes is José, the boy that was killed in the cementery, and the martirdom was as shown in the movie, the innocent federal soldiers (according to some) skinned his feet and after that, made him walk to the cementery where he was killed.
Reading Bartolome posts I just got a stomach ache. What happens in Mexico with anything to do with the Church. is alwyas accompied by black legends, because since Benito Juarez all pf our politicians have been masons.
Plutarco Elías Calles did the most stupid thing against the mexican people, He is well protected since he is the founder of the National Revolutinaty Party, now called Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI
Plutarco Elías calles did not make any law, this laws were made iin 1855-1859 by Benito Juarez and confirmed in the constitution of 1917.
The question is why a country that was 100% catholic had this laws. Before Calles nobody had been so stupid to try to apply them. And yes they forbade public and private religious acts. (Tis law is just now in the process of being modified.)
And yes Calles actions were to kill prists and catholics.
About what Bartolome says about the church and the europeans and the richs. that is just official lias.
Since Spains came I just will mention som names that show how false those statmens invented by masons are.
Fray Bartolome de las Casas, Indian protector
Fray Bernardino de Sahagun, missionary
Fray Pedro de Gante, educator and missionary
Fray Antonio Alcalde, Bsihop of Merida and Guadalajara, Whith his own money, founder of the Real y Pontificia Universidad de Guadalajara, Founder of the Casa de la misericordia, Now city hospital. builder of Litte houses for the poor. The principal AVE of Guadalajara is named with his name.
Vasco de Quiroga, bishop of Valladolid, now Morelia, indians called him Tata VAsco (Dad Vasco in Purepecha) He shows the indians of diferent villages to work in different crafts so the could trade between them, Quiroga is no a town famous for his guitars and other wood products.
These are no exceptions, I could continue this list for long.
Also wanted to tell everibody that official Mexican History was written by mason or was ordered by masons.
I hope this clarify this about Mexico.
Interesting, thanks!🙂

God bless,

PAX
 
…but to even hint that anything like it is coming here to America is silly. I worry that the hierarchy is going to target one ‘enemy’ after another, including Obama, the Girl Scouts and the nuns! Hasn’t it enough trouble with the continuing sex scandal, financial malfeasance in the Vatican, the leaking of Vatican papers by the Pope’s butler, apparent rough competition within the Vatican, etc.?
Interesting. It is the catholic hierarchy that is “targeting” people in America? What kind of Bizarro World thinking is this?

Which of these is being “targeted?”
  1. Nancy Pelosi who continues to call herself catholic and receive communion with impunity despite her anti-catholic propaganda and political agenda, or
  2. Catholic Charities which has (so far in IL and MA, but more to come) been required to choose either their catholic identity or their mission to help orphans find adoptive parents. They have been legally prohibited from doing both.
Which of these is “targeted?”
  1. The National Education Association, which consistently uses (mandatory) dues from members to promote pro-abortion politicians, or
  2. Catholic schools which will soon be forced to either violate their religious beliefs or drastically increase tuition in order to pay the HHS fine for “failing” to provide free sterilization and contraception?
Which is being targeted?
  1. Planned Parenthood that received hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to use to promote their vision of no strings attached sexual license?
  2. Catholic pharmacists who increasingly are being pressured by the state to either fill prescriptions that act by killing unborn children or have their license revoked.
One of us is admittedly unreasonably paranoid about which side faces real upcoming risks of structural oppression. It just isn’t me. :o
 
I worry that the hierarchy is going to target one ‘enemy’ after another, including Obama, the Girl Scouts and the nuns! Hasn’t it enough trouble with the continuing sex scandal, financial malfeasance in the Vatican, the leaking of Vatican papers by the Pope’s butler, apparent rough competition within the Vatican, etc.?
The heirarchy are the ones with the targets painted on their backs. Many of the snipers taking aim at them are in the Church; some are even priests and vowed religious.

I expect to die in bed, my successor will die in prison and his successor will die a martyr in the public square.
His Eminence Francis Card. George, Archbishop of Chicago, 2010

When that happens, who will have a candlelight vigil for him, and where will it be safe to hold it?
 
What little I know about all this I have stated in my previous posts in this threat.

Beyond that, I think all the answers are there in the New Testament, in the Vatican II Council documents, and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

My only claim is just if any reasonable person becomes really familiar with the facts of the Cristeros War and the events immediately preceding it, and becomes really familiar with the Catholic Just War Doctrine as it is taught by the Church today, I think he or she will reach the conclusion that the Mexican Catholics would have given Greater Glory to God and would have brought more salvation to souls if they’d never shot a single bullet at the Mexican government policemen and army officers. Shooting guns at government offices is a very serious matter.
Just war theory,
  1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
Cristeros War, Certainly the prohibition against any public masses or other forms of worship,the expulsion of foriegn born priests/bishops, the prohibiting of all religious education, closing of monasteries, seizing of church property was grave and certain. Was it lasting? Well the laws had been on the books for close to 10 years, now that they were being enforced, a reasonable person could conlude they would be lasting.
  1. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective
Cristeros War prelude: the Catholi Bishops had tried several measures, the economic boycott against the Calles government being the one that drove Calles crazy. The Calles government was not open to ANY negotiations. A reasonable person could certainly conclude that any non-violent attempt was just making the anti-Catholic laws and enforcement worse.
  1. there must be serious prospects of success
Cristeros War: Certainly there was. The Mexican population was largely Catholic. A long history of overthrow of governements existed in Mexico. It is likely general Gorostieta agreed to lead the fight because he ultimately wanted to head the next government.

And in hindsignt, it is hard to say the war was not ultimately successful, as the PRI never again tried to enforce its anti-Catholic laws to that extent again.
  1. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition
Cristeros War: Certainly many, many people were killed, possibly 150,000. Yet masses were once again heard in Mexico, people could be baptized again publicly, etc. Are all of the graces received by the reception of sacraments in Mexico since that war equal to, or greater than, value than the lives lost? Only God knows for sure, but a reasonable Catholic could certainly conclude that the weight of a mass is infinite.
 
I loved this movie. I cried a few times during it. Actually, my wife and I sat through the entire ending credits to give ourselves time to “dry up” before we went out into the lobby! Go see it! It was terrific!

off my chest…sorry if I strayed from the topic…anyway…
Go see this film. It will strengthen your faith. And Andy Garcia is splendid in it. What a performance!
Peace,
Jim
Me too

There were creative licenses taken in quite a few places, but is overall a good flick based in history.

Plus the end credits clearly show photos of the actors and who they portray.
Interesting that the character of the priest general is depicting about 5 if my recollection is correct, including one non priest.

There were many other photos then shown after of just the people…many many people…some were perhaps not Catholic…and some were the priests who stayed to take care of their flocks.

It is R rated, so I don’t recommend anyone under 19 seeing it, but do put it on your to see list.
 
Interesting. It is the catholic hierarchy that is “targeting” people in America? What kind of Bizarro World thinking is this?

Which of these is being “targeted?”
  1. Nancy Pelosi who continues to call herself catholic and receive communion with impunity despite her anti-catholic propaganda and political agenda, or
  2. Catholic Charities which has (so far in IL and MA, but more to come) been required to choose either their catholic identity or their mission to help orphans find adoptive parents. They have been legally prohibited from doing both.
Which of these is “targeted?”
  1. The National Education Association, which consistently uses (mandatory) dues from members to promote pro-abortion politicians, or
  2. Catholic schools which will soon be forced to either violate their religious beliefs or drastically increase tuition in order to pay the HHS fine for “failing” to provide free sterilization and contraception?
Which is being targeted?
  1. Planned Parenthood that received hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to use to promote their vision of no strings attached sexual license?
  2. Catholic pharmacists who increasingly are being pressured by the state to either fill prescriptions that act by killing unborn children or have their license revoked.
One of us is admittedly unreasonably paranoid about which side faces real upcoming risks of structural oppression. It just isn’t me. :o
Code:
I didn't want to quote all this, but focus on Catholic Charities.
As I understand it, Catholic Charities spends over $4.5 billion a year. It does good work. However, nearly $3 billion of that comes from our taxes. Only $140 million comes from diocesan churches. A large amount also comes from Community Chests and such, supported by people of varying faith communities.
Code:
It always has interested me that there have been no screams from Protestants and other Christians that their tax monies are going to support Catholic projects. They obviously are not bothered by this. Or, unaware of it?

 Now, when religious groups are so heavily underwritten by public funds one has to expect that they may have to serve the public in a non-denominational fashion. What do they say> You can't have your cake and eat it too? Does that apply?
 
Great movie!!! a must-see for all mexicans who do not know the history of the persecution of the Church in Mexico. Apparently this has not been included in history books as the government attempted to erase it from history…
 
When I was in England in 1996. Their cable channel carried a series of Mexican anti-Catholic movies from the 1920.
The way Priests were portrayed looked identical to the Nazi
anti Jewish propoganda films of the next decade. Himmler
must have been familiar with them.These films plus my interest in Mexico caused me to research the topic. What I found was by the late 20’s almost all but a few priests were left in Mexico. Even today the number of priests in Mexico is much smaller than the US. So the policies of the 1920 are
still having an effect.
 
I didn’t want to quote all this, but focus on Catholic Charities.

As I understand it, Catholic Charities spends over $4.5 billion a year. It does good work. However, nearly $3 billion of that comes from our taxes. Only $140 million comes from diocesan churches. A large amount also comes from Community Chests and such, supported by people of varying faith communities.
Code:
It always has interested me that there have been no screams from Protestants and other Christians that their tax monies are going to support Catholic projects. They obviously are not bothered by this. Or, unaware of it?

 Now, when religious groups are so heavily underwritten by public funds one has to expect that they may have to serve the public in a non-denominational fashion. What do they say> You can't have your cake and eat it too? Does that apply?
So you’re saying that since Catholic organizations receive public funds given freely, we should curtail our beliefs and practices and attempt to offend nobody rather than live our faith and serve the needy?
 
Now, when religious groups are so heavily underwritten by public funds one has to expect that they may have to serve the public in a non-denominational fashion. What do they say> You can’t have your cake and eat it too? Does that apply?
There is a long and legally clear method for evaluating the appropriateness of governmental cooperation with faith based organizations. I’m not an expert myself, but it appears to summarizes something like this:
  1. There is a clear public need that falls under the mission of a government agency to address.
  2. There is an existing private entity also working to meet that public need and that private entity has demonstrated the capacity to meet that need as efficiently or more efficiently than a public agency could.
  3. The private entity may hold a religious identity, but the public funding must be directed to meet the needs of the public goal, not the other religious goals of the private entity.
  4. The private religious organization may operate according to its religious principles insofar as it does not interfere with the completion of the government agency goals.
Thus, there really is ZERO problem with Catholic Charities providing adoption services and restricting those services to married couples. The government is free to provide funding to secular agencies who have no religious objection to certain types of prospective parents, but for the government to claim that since Catholic Charities refuses to work with a microscopically small portion of the population it is ineligible for ANY adoption work is a major rupture with the historic criteria of public private partnership. There is no sensible reason other than power politics that they couldn’t continue to fund catholic adoption serivces as-is and if public policy demands it, fund somebody else to serve prospective gay parents.

PLEASE realize that the government has never funded ANY catholic agencies in their peculiarly catholic work. They only fund those portions of our apostolates that overlap services that the government believes necessary to provide and that we can do cheaper than they can. This is not subsidizing catholicism, it is efficient government.
 
When I was in England in 1996. Their cable channel carried a series of Mexican anti-Catholic movies from the 1920.
The way Priests were portrayed looked identical to the Nazi
anti Jewish propoganda films of the next decade. Himmler
must have been familiar with them.These films plus my interest in Mexico caused me to research the topic. What I found was by the late 20’s almost all but a few priests were left in Mexico. Even today the number of priests in Mexico is much smaller than the US. So the policies of the 1920 are
still having an effect.
You are correct, per Catholic the number of priests in Mexico is about 25% of the United States. In the 1930s, there were entire regions with no priests. The draconian policies were never officially removed from the books until around 10 years ago. And some of them are still present. They were just not enforced again (largely thanks to the Cristeros movement), as the Mexican revolutionary government realized its limitations.

We must realize that the PRI revolution in Mexico was initially as Marxists as what occurred in Russia (at about the same time). So everything we know about anti-religion policies in communist countries was certainly “on the table” in Mexico. It is also a likely probability that communist parties in eastern europe after WWII learned a little from the Cristeros as to the limits of anti-Catholic policies with a predominantly Catholic population.
 
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