I like this forum because it is what I learned in 4th grade

[JimG]

In second grade, in preparation for First Holy Communion, we learned that we were to receive Jesus under the appearances of bread and wine. We were taught transubstantiation.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

In second grade, in preparation for First Holy Communion, we learned that we were to receive Jesus under the appearances of bread and wine. We were taught transubstantiation.

Thank you! I am of the firm and unwavering belief that teaching children anything less is one of the biggest modern tragedies of our faith.

 

[De_Maria]

So we should not educate them that the Eucharist they are receiving is Jesus?

You said that, not I.

Here’s what I do know, their parents should have explained the Eucharist from the time the children could hold a conversation. By the time they get to 2nd grade, the Eucharist should be a review. Not an introduction.

The Catholic Church teaches that the parents are the primary teachers of the faith. Not the Parish Catechists.

You have no issues with telling them it’s simply a special gift?

Do you deny that it’s a special gift?

If the parents have already taught them that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, the child will certainly not be adversely affected by describing the Eucharist as a special gift.

Yes, second graders are still small children who leave much to be desired in their impulse control skills. However, we should not insult their intelligence by providing them with anything less than the truth.

Is it less than the truth to say that the Eucharist is a special gift from God? In my opinion, it is false to deny that the Eucharist is a special gift.

The Catholic church moved First Communion from the age of 14 to the age of 7 because, though the intercession of many saints, including Blessed Imelda, that children were VERY capable of understanding that they were receiving Jesus.

True. But CCE doesn’t end in 2nd grade. Nor should it begin in a Parish program. Parents and guardians should be teaching their children from the time they are born. From the time they are conceived if some of those education theories are true.

My point is very simple. It is simplistic to put the blame on the Church or on the materials if you or your children aren’t catechized. Just because you don’t like the program or the pictures that are colored in the program doesn’t mean the program will fail. The problem is many faceted and the main problem, in my opinion, is that more people don’t step up to pull their weight on the matter of educating their children in the Catholic Faith.

You previously said:

It was a project for my Masters, so while I chat with the priest every now and then, but since I am not located near them, I have little ability to check in more than that.

So, you’re not going to do anything else?

I’ll give you a suggestion. At least send the parents and teachers a questionnair asking what they think of the program. Perhaps that way, you can find out how to improve your product.

Why don’t you also pay the Parish a visit and see if the Catechists are using or abandoning your curriculum. Perhaps they aren’t even using it at all. Perhaps they find it silly. Or, maybe they love it. Who knows. But you ought to find ways to get some feedback.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

My point is very simple. It is simplistic to put the blame on the Church or on the materials if you or your children aren’t catechized. Just because you don’t like the program or the pictures that are colored in the program doesn’t mean the program will fail. The problem is many faceted and the main problem, in my opinion, is that more people don’t step up to pull their weight on the matter of educating their children in the Catholic Faith.

You make it sound like I have the ability to enter people’s home and teach the parents. The reason the church moved to whole community is because the parents DON’T KNOW, either. I am looking at things at the parish level and with the responsibility, the Parish has to its members. It is often not that parish’s fault that the parents–or heck, even grandparents at this point were never taught anything real about Catholicism. And, really, it starts at second grade because parents want their cute little child to have a cute First Communion picture. Before Whole Community the 2nd grade classes were four times the size of the first and third grade classes and the Confirmation classes 9th&10th were twice the size of the 8th grade classes. The 11th grade classes were combined with 12th grade for lack of students. And it was like that every.single.year.

Again, a bit of CARA data would be a big help

So, you’re not going to do anything else?

I’ll give you a suggestion. At least send the parents and teachers a questionnair asking what they think of the program. Perhaps that way, you can find out how to improve your product.

Why don’t you also pay the Parish a visit and see if the Catechists are using or abandoning your curriculum. Perhaps they aren’t even using it at all. Perhaps they find it silly. Or, maybe they love it. Who knows. But you ought to find ways to get some feedback.

You assume I wrote the curriculum? No, I did not. That’s your own bias. I simply researched options and provided them with ones that were more aligned with the Catholic Church’s actual teachings than pandering fluff. Unlike JimG’s experience, they actually took my advice and used the spiritually meaty one. I have made it clear. I did not write the program in any way, shape or form. I simply wrote the marketing materials and “business plan” for the parish to move from CCD to Whole Community. Given the success rate, (students attending straight through from 2nd to 8th, parents attending Mass) I do not think the pastor is going to change things anytime soon.

As a note, there is still somewhat of a struggle to get K & 1st students involved. It’s substantially better than it was, but many enroll, and are first aware of the need for Whole Community, when they darken the door of the church with their 6 or 7 year old for the first time since last Christmas hoping to get into classes.

 

[De_Maria]

You make it sound like I have the ability to enter people’s home and teach the parents.
The reason the church moved to whole community is because the parents DON’T KNOW, either.

Well, you just confirmed that the problem is not reduced simply to the quality of the Catechesis. Let’s see, the parents have the children 7 days a week for how many hours? At least 80, right? How long do the children spend with the Catechist and reading your material?

Do you really think your material will have more impact on the children than the parents’ example?

I am looking at things at the parish level and with the responsibility, the Parish has to its members. It is often not that parish’s fault that the parents–or heck, even grandparents at this point were never taught anything real about Catholicism.

Thank you. That’s what I’ve been wanting you to acknowledge from the first.

And, really, it starts at second grade because parents want their cute little child to have a cute First Communion picture. Before Whole Community the 2nd grade classes were four times the size of the first and third grade classes and the Confirmation classes 9th&10th were twice the size of the 8th grade classes. The 11th grade classes were combined with 12th grade for lack of students. And it was like that every.single.year.

Yeah. We really need to find out how to reach those parents. I’m of the opinion that the Church needs to educate the parents and not the children. Then give the parents the task of getting their children ready for the Sacraments. That way, the onus will be on the people who love the children, hopefully more than life itself. If they aren’t motivated to catechize the children, who is?

Again, a bit of CARA data would be a big help

A bit of adult catechesis would also be helpful.

You assume I wrote the curriculum? No, I did not.

My misunderstanding. I thought you said that you had.

That’s your own bias. I simply researched options and provided them with ones that were more aligned with the Catholic Church’s actual teachings than pandering fluff. Unlike JimG’s experience, they actually took my advice and used the spiritually meaty one. I have made it clear. I did not write the program in any way, shape or form. I simply wrote the marketing materials and “business plan” for the parish to move from CCD to Whole Community. Given the success rate, (students attending straight through from 2nd to 8th, parents attending Mass) I do not think the pastor is going to change things anytime soon.

Glad to hear it.

As a note, there is still somewhat of a struggle to get K & 1st students involved.
It’s substantially better than it was, but many enroll, and are first aware of the need for Whole Community, when they darken the door of the church with their 6 or 7 year old for the first time since last Christmas hoping to get into classes.

Ok.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

That’s the problem with today’s society.

Some time ago there was this drive to teach babies how to swim right from so that there would be less “swimming pool” tragedies… so yeah, quite a huge enlightenment… now, when it comes to their Eternal Security… well just wait till they are mature enough–has anyone been following the “college curve?”

…in my native country we had a word for it “mangansones;” roughly translated as bid dopes–people are coming into adulthood with the commonsense of a five-year old!

We cannot turn the clock back! Ignore that important window of instruction and you might as well seal off Christianity!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

There is nothing as beautiful to me in seeing the mystery of the faith played out in the eyes of a child. Parents insist on Disney Land and Santa but they deprive their children of this…often because they themselves, and perhaps even their parents, were also deprived of.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

…as is the practice of bringing children to Mass with loads of food, water, games, toys, and electronic gadgets!

…training children to see the Mass as a place of entertainment and tantrums seldomly transfers to awareness of God–the building is only as strong as its base (cornerstone).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, De Maria!

…the problem is that Catholic parents themselves require catechesis; too often they are ignorant of their Faith–the Church has relied on outmoded values (a society where people believed/fear God) and has not engaged past the status quo (if you build it they will come.); business as usual has shown that a great number of Catholics remain in the fringes and become easy prey for all sorts of things, including proselytizing and disbelief.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, De Maria!

…the hole in the wall is that parents are not educated nor devout; as time has transgressed Catholicism has become more of a social/family tradition than Faith.

If parents don’t know their Faith how can they teach their children?

If parents don’t live their Faith how can they be surprised that their children/grandchildren leave the Church as soon as society’s rewards outweigh the security of what they have understood as Faith?

This is where we stand–and don’t forget about all those other issues that are presently hounding the Church!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

Hi!..
We cannot turn the clock back! Ignore that important window of instruction and you might as well seal off Christianity!

Come now.

1. First, no one is recommending that it be ignored.
2. But, I am pointing out that placing the blame on a 2nd grade curriculum for someone’s adult understanding of his faith is nonsense. What about the intervening 20 years? The individual couldn’t pick up a book and do some private research?
3. If a second grade curriculum is so important that we must seal off Christianity if the person does not get it, what does that say about adult converts from other religions? Should we close the doors to them?

Let me put this very bluntly. I don’t for one minute believe that a Catholic can go from 2nd grade to Confirmation without someone explaining the Eucharist and all the mysteries of our faith. The problem is very simple. The individual was not paying attention and now wants to blame everyone but himself.

The caricature being presented is that an individual only receives catechesis in a church classroom. But these things are taught in the Mass, at home by the parents and by other interested people throughout a Catholic’s life. Did everyone in this person’s life fall down when it came to teaching the Catholic Faith? Is everyone to blame but the individual who does not know what transubstantiation means?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Let me put this very bluntly. I don’t for one minute believe that a Catholic can go from 2nd grade to Confirmation without someone explaining the Eucharist and all the mysteries of our faith. The problem is very simple. The individual was not paying attention and now wants to blame everyone but himself.

And by that, you make your stance very clear. Despite the materials that you were shown, despite the stories you hear, despite everything, you continue to deny it’s even possible. That’s your hill to die on, then, and it’s a very sad one because it ignores the reality of what is now a 3rd generation (and perhaps even a 4th) of uneducated or poorly educated Catholics.

 

[De_Maria]

vz71, with all due respect, we’re talking about a problem here where people are never given the chance to learn about their faith because they are given materials so poor they could hardly be called Catholic. …

Come now, really? Did they have Catholic parents? Did they attend Catholic Mass? Did they have Catholic friends? Are books so important that someone must wait on just the right book before they learn anything?

You’re not putting the onus of the responsibility where it belongs. On the individual.

 

[MaryT777]

Not everyone was paying attention in 4th grade. My Catholic school had excellent catechesis when I grew up, yet the “lack of Catechesis” based on the number from my class that converted to other denominations, is what parents blame for their no longer Catholic children practicing the Faith.

I went in high school no less. So it’s now always a lack of Catechesis but who was studying, paying attention etc.

Just my thought. .

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

I was taught from the Baltimore Catechism and I learned nothing. All I did was stare out the window. So, the Baltimore Catechism is not a magic bullet.

Nope. Not a magic bullet. But it’s better than making banners.

One year I was teaching CCD/PSR and the administration gave the teachers some sample religion text series in consideration for the next year. I wrote brief reviews of all of them. Only one had solid catechesis. One was pure fluff. Sure enough, they selected the fluff.

Jim, it was “fluff” in your opinion. Apparently, other well meaning and faithful people didn’t like your selection. What makes your opinion better than theirs?

 

[NoelFitz]

BD
You wrote:
You do realize there’s more advanced stuff you could be reading?
I find it sad to read that CAF does not go beyond 4th grade Catholicism.

 

[De_Maria]

10gr8kids:

Just so you can clarify for me…

Did you just not know what the word ‘Transubstantiation’ meant? Or did you actually not know about the teaching that the bread and wine became the Body and Blood of Jesus at consecration? It is just dumbfounding to me that someone could make their first communion and confirmation and never learn that.

I had no such teaching. We were taught that Communion was a “gift” from Jesus via the Last Supper. The whole idea of Jesus transforming, body and blood, soul and divinity was not something I heard until my Lifeteen group did an Adoration lifenight. Until then I had never heard of Adoration, either.

Was this Teaching not mentioned in Mass until your Lifeteen years? I find it very hard to believe.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

vz71, with all due respect, we’re talking about a problem here where people are never given the chance to learn about their faith because they are given materials so poor they could hardly be called Catholic. …

Come now, really? Did they have Catholic parents? Did they attend Catholic Mass? Did they have Catholic friends? Are books so important that someone must wait on just the right book before they learn anything?

You’re not putting the onus of the responsibility where it belongs. On the individual.

My grandparents got fluff in the 60’s. My parents got fluff. My friends knew no more than I did…and we even were weekly Mass attendants. We had an old protestant bible in the house–that was it.

Individual my arse. We have a multigenerational problem that you refuse to acknowledge that at its core began when true catechetics ended.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

10gr8kids:

Just so you can clarify for me…

Did you just not know what the word ‘Transubstantiation’ meant? Or did you actually not know about the teaching that the bread and wine became the Body and Blood of Jesus at consecration? It is just dumbfounding to me that someone could make their first communion and confirmation and never learn that.

I had no such teaching. We were taught that Communion was a “gift” from Jesus via the Last Supper. The whole idea of Jesus transforming, body and blood, soul and divinity was not something I heard until my Lifeteen group did an Adoration lifenight. Until then I had never heard of Adoration, either.

Was this Teaching not mentioned in Mass until your Lifeteen years? I find it very hard to believe.

HAha my priest growing up was famous for his “Mc Donald homilies” in which he’d declare it was too hot, too cold or too whatever say the common McDonald advertizing phrase “Have you had your break today”…it was at the time, then tell us all to have a relaxing Sunday and continue with Mass.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi!

…as is the practice of bringing children to Mass with loads of food, water, games, toys, and electronic gadgets!

…training children to see the Mass as a place of entertainment and tantrums seldomly transfers to awareness of God–the building is only as strong as its base (cornerstone).

Maran atha!

Angel

Spoken like a person who has never raised children. A person who has never felt the angry stares of the Parishioners when the child squirms and touches someone or someone’s things by accident. A person who has never had to rush out of Church because the baby won’t stop crying.

I suggest you walk in someone else’s shoes before you start spouting simplistic solutions.