I love Mary, but can't defend why

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I find myself rather close to Our Blessed Virgin and enjoy praying my rosary, but I am afraid to have the coversation with non Catholic friends as I can’t defend why I love her or have this bond.

Any suggested readings would be fabulous, or even comments to help.

Also, *A great sign appeared in Heaven: a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head - Rev 12:11 *is my signature but if you carry on reading it suggests that this Woman gets eagle wings?

I need help!

Thank you in advance!
 
  • [12:14] Great eagle: symbol of the power and swiftness of divine help; cf. Ex 19:4; Dt 32:11; Is 40:31.
 
Protestants, but especially Evangelicals will be censorious about our devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. But that is hardly ALL! 😉 I would be very insistent (if the conversation arose) that this devotion is NOT worship, which is only due to God. I would say it springs from our Love of God, and everything, and everyone that is close to God, which surely includes His Mother. We are NOT just worried about our own salvation, but also in pleasing God, in every possible way. Evangelicals (especially) are hung up on Faith and what is necessary for salvation, but Loving God is the first commandment. 🙂
 
I find myself rather close to Our Blessed Virgin and enjoy praying my rosary, but I am afraid to have the coversation with non Catholic friends as I can’t defend why I love her or have this bond.

Any suggested readings would be fabulous, or even comments to help.

Also, *A great sign appeared in Heaven: a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head - Rev 12:11 *is my signature but if you carry on reading it suggests that this Woman gets eagle wings?

I need help!

Thank you in advance!
Tell them you feel like Elizabeth, who while filled with the Holy Spirit, rejoiced at Mary’s very presence. From today’s Gospel:*Luke 1:41-45 Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.*You can say you also feel privileged with the presence of such a great member of the body of Christ as the mother of your Lord.
 
Mary is a tough topic to bring up with non-Catholics. I think that evangelicals would agree they love her as well (can you really think an ill thought about her?) but their love is not going to be as strong or as direct as someone with a devotion, and it will be difficult for them to understand.

I will note that the more you talk about Mary - especially if you go outside a familiar biblical framework in discussing the Seven Sorrows or the Rosary, the folk stories of Mary (Milagros de la Virgen), apparitions, etc - the more they will get the impression that Mary, not Jesus, is central to our faith. When talking with Protestants, always start with Jesus and always end with Jesus. You can then bring in ways that they can relate to Mary - “You know, she really exhibited a profound trust in God and an absolute willingness to turn over her life to Him for His purposes, knowing that She was committing herself to raising the child Jesus and being with Him as He went about a very difficult and short adult life. How many new moms want to be told that through their son a sword will pierce her own heart? She knew she would suffer and she knew she would receive joy for it. I really admire her for that and thinking of her helps me to face my own struggles” etc.

See how that goes over. If you bring up the Rosary in a similar light, focusing on what Jesus did and continues to do:

“You’d think the Rosary is all about Mary, but it’s really about Mary’s life with Jesus. When we meditate on the mysteries, I try to think about what Mary was going through as Jesus healed the sick, taught the freedom He would give to His flock, and suffered the persecution and wounds and death that saves us sinners.”

I think you’d have a much easier time leaving out some facets of Marian devotion. For example, the story of Our Lady of Charity (sailors in a storm pray to Mary, the storm dissipates and a statue of a girl floats towards them) is going to be a tough sell. Any time you mention statues, the “idolatry” wall goes up. The most effective counter I’ve had is that if you took the statues out of the church, our worship of the Lord would go on unchanged. They’re not essential - reminders, certainly, but not integral to serving the Lord.

By the way, congratulations on welcoming a blessed child. I’ll keep your growing family in my family’s prayers.
 
Mary is a queen. Jesus is clearly a King and the kings of the Old Testament apploined their mothers to the position of queen. Mary is Jesus’ queen.

The whole theme of Matthew’s Gospel is Jesus and his kingdom; the announcement of the kingdom, descriptions of the kingdom, the establishment of the kingdom, the tearing down of the old kingdom. Jesus spends all of Chapter 13 of Matthews Gospel giving parables about what his kingdom will be like.

When the people saw the sign he had done, they said, “This is truly the Prophet, the one who is to come into the world.” Since Jesus knew that they were going to come and carry him off to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain alone. (John 6:14-15)

The people around Jesus recognized him as thier King. It’s undeniable. And we must always remember that the Old Testament is the story of God preparing his people to accept their Messiah, preparing Israel and the whole world to accept their King. And when we look at all the Kings of the Old Testament who come before and prefigure Jesus, we find a curious fact about who these Kings appointed to be their Queens.

Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right. (1 Kings 2:19)

No one in the kingdom was higher than the king, yet Solomon pays homage to his mother and seats her in a throne on his right. Only kings and queens sit on thrones. Bathsheba is given a throne because she is not only Solomon’s mother but she is also his queen.

The Hebrew word for queen-mother or literally “Grand lady” is Gebirah. We see references to the Gebirah elswhere in the Old Testament.

Jehu met the kinsmen of Ahazi’ah king of Judah, and he said, “Who are you?” And they answered, "We are the kinsmen of Ahazi’ah, and we came down to visit the royal princes and the sons of the queen mother."
(2 Kings 10:13)

This was after King Jeconiah and the queen mother, the court officials, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, the artisans and smiths had left Jerusalem. (Jerimiah 29:2)


In fact, the various kings throught he centuries are listed in the 1 and 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles and with every king, the king’s mother is also listed.

In the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, son of Nebat, Abijam became king of Judah; he reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Maacah, daughter of Abishalom. (1 Kings 15:1-2)

In the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, Abijah became king of Judah; he reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother was named Micaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah. (2 Chronicals 13:1-2)

Uzziah was sixteen years old when he became king, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jecoliah, from Jerusalem. (2 Chronicals 26:3)


There are twenty seven verses like this! When God repeats something once or twice in the Bible, he is trying to tell us something. When God repeats something twenty seven times, we had better take notice! God is telling us who the mother of the king was because the mother of the king was a queen.

*A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation 12:1) *

We can argue who the woman in Revelation 12 is but the fact that she wears a crown is clear. Only kings and queens wear crowns and so the woman wearning a crown is clearly a queen. The woman is described as giving birth to a male child who rules the nations, and this description is consistent with a king and his mother the queen which we see in the Old Testament. The fact that the woman’s son in Revelation 12 is “Caught up to God and his throne” leads most Christians to believe that the child is Jesus. The mother can only be Mary, and Mary is Jesus’ Queen.

As Queen of Heaven and earth, Mary has been granted very real power and authority. As the Queen of Heaven and earth, Mary is higher than the angels and the saints, sitting on a throne next to her son Jesus Christ, the King.

All the angels and saints in Heaven bow before Mary their Queen. Shouldn’t we?

-Tim-
 
Mary is the Saint of Saints

she is the epitome of a perfect disciple

and she does it all for Jesus ,she leads us to Jesus

if we want a personal relationship with Jesus , its only right to get to know his friends , and family - especially his Mother

she has lead so many to Jesus, we worship Jesus everyday we go to mass

and meditate on his life every time we pray the Rosary

we ask for intercession from the Saints just like it shows in the bible, and just like I ask my friends and family for their prayers I will ask Mary for hers, because she is closer to Jesus than anyone I know here on earth!
 
The gap between here:
Mary is a queen. Jesus is clearly a King and the kings of the Old Testament apploined their mothers to the position of queen. Mary is Jesus’ queen.
And here:
As Queen of Heaven and earth, Mary has been granted very real power and authority. As the Queen of Heaven and earth, Mary is higher than the angels and the saints, sitting on a throne next to her son Jesus Christ, the King.
is the one that will be difficult to cross for non-Catholics. Even if a non-Catholic accepts that Mary is Queen by virtue of Jesus’ Kingship, the imputing of heavenly authority to her will remain an obstacle. It’s also not a mode that most Protestants are used to travelling. If you talk about Mary in a very personal sense, you’re in the language of relationship. If you talk about Mary as Queen, it’s the language of authority, and for authority Protestants go to Scripture, which last shows Mary being whisked into hiding in the wilderness and makes no mention of her being in the Throne Room.

I appreciate your presenting the case of Queen Mother in the OT in the line of Davidic Kings, but it’s really not that clean-cut that the Queen Mother always behaved righteously.
There are twenty seven verses like this! When God repeats something once or twice in the Bible, he is trying to tell us something. When God repeats something twenty seven times, we had better take notice! God is telling us who the mother of the king was because the mother of the king was a queen.
Mentioning the Queen Mother doesn’t define her role - which was more pronounced while the king was a child than when he came of age. If you look through the passages, the Queen Mother’s name is certainly mentioned but except for Bathsheba, her deeds are forgotten … except for the bad ones.

Asa, king after Abijam, deposed his own mother, the Queen Mother Maacah, for her worship of Asherah. His deposing of her was right in the sight of the Lord (1 Kg 15:8-15).

Athaliah, Queen Mother to Ahaziah, king after Jehoram, counseled her son in wicked ways (2 Ch 22:3), the same ways that caused the Lord to smite Jehoram’s house (2 Ch 21:11-15). When Ahaziah was killed, his mother, Athaliah, who remained Queen Mother, tried to kill all of Ahaziah’s children (2 Kg 11: 1 - 3) in order to avoid having to give up power. When the Queen Mother was put to death, all Israel rejoiced (2 Kg 11:20).

Consider the context of some of the passages you note:
Jehu met the kinsmen of Ahazi’ah king of Judah, and he said, “Who are you?” And they answered, "We are the kinsmen of Ahazi’ah, and we came down to visit the royal princes and the sons of the queen mother."
(2 Kings 10:13)
Jehu said: *“Take them alive.” So they took them alive and killed them at the pit of Beth-eked, forty-two men; and he left none of them. (2 Kings 10:14) *
Jehu killed them because these relatives of the queen mother were, like the queen mother, worshippers of Baal.
In the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, son of Nebat, Abijam became king of Judah; he reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Maacah, daughter of Abishalom. (1 Kings 15:1-2)
This is the same Asa who deposed his mother for her idolatry.

So I don’t see Scripture making the case for Mary having a special authority by virtue of her Son.
 
I find myself rather close to Our Blessed Virgin and enjoy praying my rosary, but I am afraid to have the coversation with non Catholic friends as I can’t defend why I love her or have this bond.

Any suggested readings would be fabulous, or even comments to help.

Also, *A great sign appeared in Heaven: a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head - Rev 12:11 *is my signature but if you carry on reading it suggests that this Woman gets eagle wings?

I need help!

Thank you in advance!
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

Scripture (click the link above for a slew of these)

**The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God - ** An Angel (sent by God the Father HIMSELF) announces THIS. A whole new WORLD begins with the coming of JESUS (scripture’s NEW ADAM). HE is the SON OF GOD (also GOD the SON). AND the SON of MAN (Mary’s son too!). The First Joyful Mystery, The Annunciation!

YEARS before Jesus begins to form what He would call “MY Church”; Mary assents to
the Angel’s message “Let it Be Done Unto Me According to thy Word! (a YES!)” and becomes The first person ever to accept Jesus into her life. The first Christian.

Upon receiving Him, the young virgin IMMEDIATELY begins to help others, and makes a
journey to see her miraculously pregnant-through-prayer older cousin Elizabeth.

Elizabeth - FILLED with the Holy Spirit - in a LOUD voice cries out and calls her the " …Mother of My LORD!" and humbles herself before Mary due to that fact.

Those two scripture events from the 1st chapter of Luke form the first half of the “Hail Mary” prayer. The first words are Gabriel’s - OR God the Father’s since Gabriel is His Messenger who was SENT to Mary.

**Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant

Mary is Our Mother and Queen of the New Covenant Kingdom

Mary is Ever Virgin

Jesus’ “Brothers”= Cousins or Kinsmen

Mary’s Assumption into Heaven

Mary’s Coronation in Heaven

Misunderstanding about Matthew 1:25 (Joseph knew her “not until”)

Misunderstanding about Romans 3:23 (“All have sinned”)

Misunderstanding about Jesus “rebuking” Mary
**

(Coming - Dissecting the Hail Mary) my personal reflection. (comments welcome)
 
Dissecting the “Hail Mary” for those who don’t understand it.

HAIL (Mary) - HIGHLY ranked Archangel Gabriel greets Mary as a Superior, with a lesser greeting than he proferred to Zachary, (the “deputed High Priest” of ALL Israel and the ONLY one who could enter into the sanctuary to offer incense in the holy of holies!).

FULL OF GRACE - this is not only a “Biblical principle” it is from God the Father. Grace is God’s free gift. Holy. Mary is “full of Grace.”

THE LORD IS WITH THEE - An astounding and true declaration from God Himself through the miraculously appearing Archangel. And TRUE. We do not liberally repair the scripture to say WAS with thee. Once she was “with child” - this was literally true in a physical way. It is also the most intimate union of God to any human being in Human history. And was to that time as well. The holy spirit filled Elizabeth’s declaration
that Mary’s voice caused her (holy and miraculously conceived due to prayer child - John) to leap in her womb ought to lead any REAL Christian to someday carefully consider every word Mary speaks in scripture! For the Lord is “with her”.

WITH HER before she said her “Let it be done unto me” YES to God and the Angel!
WITH HER when she said it.
WITH HER when she immediately journeyed to help serve another person in need.
WITH HER when she spoke the soaring prayer of exaltation to God called the Magnificat.
WITH HER when she accepted Joseph as her earthly husband and infant’s protector
WITH HER when she journeyed again when about to give birth to obey the law
WITH HER when they were denied even the dignity of decent shelter after that journey.

WITH HER while she was*** FIRST REJECTED*** by people who thought of her as worthless, her unborn CHILD as GARBAGE to be gotten rid of, and her pregnancy making of her a GARBAGE CAN! Her son would be treated as garbage again. And is still, sadly.

But she was really GOD"S treasure chest - holding the greatest treasure of ALL.

GREATER than the Holy Ark of the Covenant which held the tablets of the law, the miraculously reblooming staff of Aaron, and the God given Manna from heaven.

GREATER because the Ark (which could not be even touched for it’s holiness) did not have free will to say “Let it be done unto to me …” and accept God’s covenant. The Ark contained holy stones touched by the “hand of God.” Mary contained the FULFILLMENT of that law, God Himself made man.

GREATER than the Ark because Aaron’s staff which also worked miracles through God’s power and produced life after its “death” by blooming - was just a shadow of Jesus who worked greater miracles on His OWN power, rose from the dead, and passed a new shepherd’s staff to the Church He founded to save souls.

GREATER than the Ark because the fruit of her womb called Himself “The Bread of Life”
and gave HIMSELF to us for eternal life; greater than the miraculous manna that sustained people for the day - but who later died.

BLESSED ART THOU AMONG WOMEN - All women. Including Eve who was not formed with Original Sin on her soul either. Mary was conceived, not formed from a rib, but through God’s Grace her “original sinless beginning” was equal to or superior to Eve’s particularly considering her predestined office as the Mother of Jesus (son of God, God the Son, son of Man, and savior of all mankind). Eve (who scripture calls the “mother of all living …”) was first the mother of Cain who became the first murderer.

God’s gift to Mary (her unique Immaculate Conception, a sinless beginning in grace) is and was nonetheless part of His plan of salvation for her - and Mary acknowledges God as “my Savior” in her “Magnificat” prayer in Luke (even though Christ had not yet died on a cross). She was thus ***the first person in history to call Jesus her “own personal savior” *** as it were. Even though her entry into heaven had not occurred when she spoke those words - and would not until after Christ’s sacrifice, resurrection, ascension and the sending of the Holy Spirit that began the rule of the Church on earth!

The Church of course teaches just this (as can easily be found in her Bible) - though some “teachers” who bear false witness accuse the Church of preposterously claiming such nonsense as:
  • saying Mary is considered a Goddess (Never has been taught by the Church = NTC)
  • Catholics think Mary needed no savior since she was sinless (NTC - a false witness!)
  • Catholics think Mary is “God the Mother!” (NTC - not God at all. But Christ’s mother, yes)
  • Catholics worship Mary as if she’s God (NTC - Hail Mary prayer - "pray for us " TO God)
AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF THY WOMB (Jesus!) - The Son of Man (through Mary) is of course also conceived without sin (that is, in no way inferior to Adam, formed without original sin by the Hand of God). He did not inherit any bit of original sin from EITHER parent since one parent was sinless God Himself and the other was Mary (full of grace and MADE holy). This (biblical message as it were but more importantly a message from God to Mary before IT EVER became recorded in the Bible) was spoken TO Mary and about her. HER “fruit” (God’s word) was the coming of God Himself to Earth to redeem man and open heaven! The Church added the holy name of JESUS to the Angel’s quote and the prayer here for reference - as it did with “Hail (Mary <understood).”

JESUS ‘+’ - at this point of the “Hail Mary” prayer, one is supposed to bow one’s head in worship to acknowledge the Holy Name and Christ’s Godhood and Lordship.
    • In some Missals and Catholic Bibles which include the Hail Mary written out as an addendum, you will see a “cross” symbol following the name of Jesus to indicate that one is to bow one’s head in worship then.
The name of “Mary” addressed earlier is saluted and exalted - because we follow the Lord in honoring her - but the Church does not instruct a head bow of worship to her as it does to the name of Our Lord (even in what some think is HER own prayer!). Every knee shall bow and tongue will tell that Jesus Christ is Lord!

Matthew 12:33 "Either declare the tree good and its fruit is good, or declare the tree rotten and its fruit is rotten,** for a tree is known by its fruit. **

34 You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. 37 By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Think on THIS when tempted to have enmity with “the Woman” God promised to send and who has enmity with the snake. Pick the “the Woman” not the snake when you decide whose child to become.

Genesis 315 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

It is JESUS who strikes at the head of the snake (not Cain nor even Abel) and so the “Woman,” alludes to Mary, the new Eve, who says “Yes” to God and “No” to sin.
  • we bow our heads at the Holy Name of Jesus (to be continued)
 
Dissecting the Hail Mary (continued)

**HOLY MARY - **She is readdressed, this time as ‘holy’ (a word used 782 in scripture - GOD is referred to as holy, but most of the references are to holy things and people who are not holy in a DIVINE sense). God tells Moses to take off his shoes for he is standing on “holy ground.” Moses obeys. There are holy prophets, holy people, holy ones, a holy place, a holy temple, a holy city, a holy dwelling (heaven), a holy law, holy scriptures in those 782 “biblical references”. “Holy Mary” should not be a problem for sincere people of God.

**MOTHER OF GOD - **this was revealed by the Holy Spirit Himself long before a Church Council formalized it as - not only a true teaching - but something to be emphasized for our edification and spiritual health.
The Holy Spirit FILLED Elizabeth declared Mary to be the “Mother of my Lord!” By worldly reckoning Mary wasn’t even a “mother” at all. Maybe in her “first trimester”! But the Holy Spirit declares the pregnant woman to be a Mother.

The Angel of Luke 1 declares the babies’ names-to-be prior to their conceptions. “Of God?”

The first chapter of John affirms that the " …word was with God and the word WAS God"
before that point in TIME when " the word became flesh and dwelt among us." He became flesh in the womb of Mary - a place within a human person! Mary was thus His Mother according to the flesh from then ON.

“Mother of my Lord” versus “Mother of God”? Versus? Or AND? Both!

Jesus being not only Elizabeth’s Lord, but God (or else ‘her Lord’ was “not God” ?! and yet Mary was that Lord’s “mother”) goes without saying for all but the most unthinking, rash, misunderstanders (to use the most charitable adjective). The Church did not promote Mary to an office she did not already have - neither does it teach that SHE was a Divine person - instead of the Divinely chosen and fabulously blessed one she does teach of.

God (in the second person of the Holy Trinity) became man and HIS plan was to do that
with the free will cooperation of a woman who said “Let it be done …” (yes) to that proposed covenant. That is why she is the Patron Saint of the Church.

In John 2:1 at Cana, she is called the “mother of Jesus.” Jesus was “dwelling among us” then. He did not CEASE to be God during that period; nor only later BECOME God as some creative non-Catholic false teachings would have it. So by deduction almost anyone could follow (if not perversely opposed and unreasonable):

Jesus = God
Mary = Mother of Jesus
Therefore Mary = the “Mother of God”

It’s vain to cloud the issue by diminishing Jesus (which can’t REALLY be done, but is tried) by declaring Him to be (JUST the son of God, only ONE person in the Trinity) or some far-flung rationale to prove that Mary is not Divine (no need, the Church agrees)
and did not pre-date or share in God’s pre-creational existence in eternity (NTC - but the Church is accused of this nonsense by implication or worse).

PRAY FOR US SINNERS - Ah! The Hail Mary is a prayer to a saint for intercession FROM God! Proving that Mary is not worshipped AS God (even a little bit) is in the prayer. *Were she God *or a member of the Trinity (Quadernity?!) she’d not need to pray for us but INDEED be a Divine destination for prayers and where the buck STOPS sans intercession.

The saints do pray for us and make intercession - and are part of the Body of Christ.
Jesus predicted (and truly!):

John 14:12 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and*** will do greater ones than these,*** because I am going to the Father.

NOW - The Church, which has been deputized by Jesus with the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and can “bind and loose” things on earth that are “bound and loosed” in heaven; teaches of the Communion of Saints. Reiterating Jesus’ teaching that God is the God of the living not the dead (i.e. the saints are only “dead” to their former earthly life but alive in God), the Church reminds us that the saints in Heaven can and do make requests of God on behalf of the Earthly Church as in:

Revelation 6:9 When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. 10 **They cried out **in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” 11 Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.

AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH, AMEN -

Hebrews 9:27 … it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment … – at the hour of our death prayers are not less powerful. At hours of “near death” we may be annointed by the Church in the sacrament of the sick with prayers that sometimes revive the sick person Later though, “it is appointed …etc.” The prayers of Jesus not only gave temporary healings (medical miracles!) but he told people “your sins are forgiven …” Mary, whose successful intercession is recorded in the Bible even though she merely informed Jesus " …they have no wine," when in justice it was not Jesus’ problem or hers – is invoked by the faithful at the time we’ll need help most – our own judgement.

**Judgement is fearful even for the saved - some are saved “yet as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:15. Every careless word we spoke will be accounted for Matt 12:36.
**
Biblical allusions to the soul encountering God, judgement, and Satan accusing are frightening even when all end’s well. The Israelites cowered and pleaded not to hear God speak anymore except through Moses. Isaiah shrieked that his lips were unclean when he saw God’s throne. A vision of God made St. John faint. Joshua the High Priest was covered with filth and accused by Satan in Zechariah 3:1-5 before his acquittal and
coronation.

The prayers of Mary and the saints, and even the HOLY prayers our brothers and sisters here on earth - proceed from the ‘Body of Christ’ and are not without power. The mysteries about that time in our future are not all spelled out for us. What is “the narrow door” Jesus speaks of that one must enter through and be “strong enough”? for example.

Since all of our participation in our own salvation thus far has come through the Church
(as Christ ordained it) - the Church, it’s saints, our teachers in Christ and those who
bring Christ to us are a part of His plan. At our moment of Judgement we will seek God’s mercy if we are smart. And “wash our robes in the blood of the lamb” now (keep OUR part of His Covenant, repent of sins, confess them, be forgiven, obey his commandments) while we are still here on Earth.

When we ARE saved and ushered into that new life with the Lord in heaven forever,
it is not probable we will sulk that He allowed others to be channels of the graces that saved us. And we will understand many things that confound us now.

We will love God with our whole heart, soul and mind more fully. And love our neighbors (NOT excluding **his humble handmaid, stirring prophet, devoted mother, and spledidly crowned saint - Mary **(our “Mother” in faith - as Abraham is called “father” in the Bible).
 
Um. On a briefer note, thank you FullOfThought for your original post. It certainly has proved … FRUITFUL! :clapping::dancing::extrahappy:
 
Here is a simple comparison between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant:
Code:
                       **Mary the Ark as Revealed   in Mary's Visit with Elizabeth**

         **Golden Box:  Ark of the Covenant**

     **Mary:  Ark of the New Covenant**

         Ark:  Travelled to house of Obed-Edom in   the hill country of Judea (2 Sam 6:1-11)
     Mary:  Travelled to house of Elizabeth and   Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Lk 1:39)

         Ark:  Dressed as a priest, David danced and   leapt in front of the Ark (2 Sam 6:14)
     Mary:  John the Baptist of priestly lineage   leapt in his mother's womb at the approach of Mary (Lk 1:41)

         Ark:  David asks, “Who am I that the Ark of   my Lord should come to me?  (2   Sam 6:9)
     Mary:  Elizabeth asks, “Who am I that the   mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Lk 1;43)

         Ark:  David was shouting in the presence of   the Ark (2 Sam 6:15)
     Mary:  Elizabeth “cried out” in the presence   of Mary (Lk 1:42)

         Ark:  The Ark remained in the house of   Obed-Edom for three months (2 Sam 6:11)
     Mary remained in the house of   Elizabeth for three months (Lk 1:56)

         Ark:  The house of Obed-Edom was blessed by   the presence of the Ark (2 Sam 6:11)
     Mary:  The word “blessed” used three times   and surely the house was blessed by God (Lk 1:39-45)

         Ark:  The Ark returns to its home and ends   up in Jerusalem where God's presence and glory is revealed in the Temple (2   Sam 6:12, 1 Ki 8:9-11)
     Mary:  Mary returns home and eventually ends   up in Jerusalem where she presents God enfleshed in the Temple (Lk 1:56,   2;21-22)
Another point is that the Ark of the Covenant contained three things:
-Stone tablets of the Law (10 Commandments) - Word of God
-Urn with manna (heavenly bread which sustained them through the desert)
-The Rod of Aaron which budded (Aaron was the first High Priest)

Mary (the Ark of the New Covenant) contained within her Jesus who is:
-The Word of God
-The Bread of Life
-The Eternal High Priest

Tell those you share this with to ponder these things - leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.

God Bless,
CSJ
 
If you talk about Mary as Queen, it’s the language of authority, and for authority Protestants go to Scripture, which last shows Mary being whisked into hiding in the wilderness and makes no mention of her being in the Throne Room.
Revelation 12:1 says that she wears a crown. Only kings and queens wear crowns.
So I don’t see Scripture making the case for Mary having a special authority by virtue of her Son.
The kings who forshadow Jesus - David and Solomon - were far from perfect. The mother’s of the kings were also far from perfect, yet both the imperfect kings and their imperfect queens forshadow the perfect King of kings and his perfect Queen.

As a Catholic, you may want to read encyclical of Pope Pius XII on the Queenship of Mary, Ad caeli Reginam.

The entire Christian tradition of art, liturgy, music, homiletics and writings of the saints bears witness to Mary’s queenship.

-Tim-
 
Capfun and csj wow thanks for reafirming the love and respect we should have for our BLESSED MOTHER!!! YOU GUYS ARE AWSOME!!!👍😃
 
Capfun and csj wow thanks for reafirming the love and respect we should have for our BLESSED MOTHER!!! YOU GUYS ARE AWSOME!!!👍😃
Thank you kempo. I made a hiliarious mistake right off the bat on one post though so don’t be too impressed. Lol

CORRECTION TO THIS PARAGRAPH -

HAIL (Mary) - HIGHLY ranked Archangel Gabriel greets Mary as a Superior, with a lesser :eek:< GREATER greeting than he proferred to Zachary (the “deputed High Priest” of ALL Israel and the ONLY one who could enter into the sanctuary to offer incense in the holy of holies!).

OR

HAIL (Mary) - HIGHLY ranked Archangel Gabriel greets Mary as a Superior - while a lesser greeting he proferred to Zachary, (the “deputed High Priest” of ALL Israel and the ONLY one who could enter into the sanctuary to offer incense in the holy of holies!).

Either way the Angel’s salute to Mary was GREATER and the greeting to Zachary was lesser.

Mea culpa < Through my fault ! :rolleyes:
 
Revelation 12:1 says that she wears a crown. Only kings and queens wear crowns.
Not so. Aaron was crowned as high priest (Ex. 29:6), and the promise to those who persevere in faith is the crown (2 Tm 4:8, Ja 1:12, 1 Pt 5:4, Rev 2:10, Rev 3:11). Likewise, the elders in Heaven (representing the Tribes and the Apostles) also wear crowns (Rev 4:4,10). Here the crown represents honor, glory and reward, and for the Apostles authority. How do we distinguish the crown that the Woman in Rev 12:1 wears as being a sign of authority over matters of Heaven and Earth, rather than only a sign of her being the culmination of Israel and receiving much-deserved honor for her obedience?
The kings who forshadow Jesus - David and Solomon - were far from perfect. The mother’s of the kings were also far from perfect, yet both the imperfect kings and their imperfect queens forshadow the perfect King of kings and his perfect Queen.
It’s the imperfections that make it difficult to perpetuate the metaphor. Christ is certainly the fulfillment of the Davidic line, through His stepfather, and Mary is by the sake of Christ the Queen Mother, but we should not impute Queen Mother to be Queen Regnant. Mary did not exercise authority as Queen Mother while Christ was on earth because He had not yet come into His kingdom (Lk 23:42, Rev 12:10). Christ has come into His kingdom, but He is an adult - there is no need for a Queen Mother to rule as there would on behalf of a child king. Mary has the honor of being Queen Mother but that honor is not equivalent to being Queen Regnant.

To tie back to the OP, you can love Mary for what she has done without asking her to intercede with the Intercessor to the Father.

Having read (and discussed on other threads with you, TimothyH) works by those who have developed the Marian theology, I know that the answer to my above objection is “the Lord doesn’t need Mary to be Queen Regnant but desires her to be such”. In other words, the logic does not need to follow. It’s argued to be so by Divine fiat, regardless of support in Scripture. Mary’s total absence in Scripture after Revelation 12 (when she is whisked into the desert in hiding) is handled by de Montfort (author of True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin) by simply saying God kept the Truth hidden for a time to reveal Mary in latter days. He then goes on to impute a critical role for Mary in eschatology - Mary leading the armies of Heaven, Mary having a role in the individual salvation of all beyond the work she had done while on earth, etc. This is incredibly difficult to accept because here we’re adding to Scripture, Montfort essentially changing the character of the last half of Revelation. Here we have conflict between Scripture and a 17th century saint who is fallible.
As a Catholic, you may want to read encyclical of Pope Pius XII on the Queenship of Mary, Ad caeli Reginam.
I’ve read it and it troubles me. Does that make me a heretic or only a sinner? We have in Christ a King, who is King by His own virtue, and Mary who is Queen because of Christ. Whatever good comes from Mary comes because of Christ, and through Christ, so to Christ is owed all praise and thanksgiving. I trust in Jesus to save me, not Mary. Christ the conqueror, counselor, healer, doctor, friend, savior. Christ, not Mary, whom I encounter in the Eucharist. Christ, not Mary, who bled because of my sins. Christ, not Mary, who hears my prayers. Christ, not Mary, who will reap of the earth and who will command His angels to destroy Satan, death and Hell at the end of this age.
The entire Christian tradition of art, liturgy, music, homiletics and writings of the saints bears witness to Mary’s queenship.
Oh yes our art … it very much witnesses to Mary’s Queenship. Mary with the infant Jesus, or the child Jesus, being cradled, swaddled, held, cooed, nursed, etc. Or Mary holding the crucified Jesus. Either way, the art of Mary and Jesus - especially devotional art - is Mary as Queen Regnant and Jesus indisposed. Where is the devotional art of Christ speaking while His mother sits at His feet and listens while He teachers her? Certainly she was present in His life on earth between the periods of childhood and crucifixion.
 
Not so. Aaron was crowned as high priest (Ex. 29:6), and the promise to those who persevere in faith is the crown (2 Tm 4:8, Ja 1:12, 1 Pt 5:4, Rev 2:10, Rev 3:11). Likewise, the elders in Heaven (representing the Tribes and the Apostles) also wear crowns (Rev 4:4,10). Here the crown represents honor, glory and reward, and for the Apostles authority. How do we distinguish the crown that the Woman in Rev 12:1 wears as being a sign of authority over matters of Heaven and Earth, rather than only a sign of her being the culmination of Israel and receiving much-deserved honor for her obedience?

It’s the imperfections that make it difficult to perpetuate the metaphor. Christ is certainly the fulfillment of the Davidic line, through His stepfather, and Mary is by the sake of Christ the Queen Mother, but we should not impute Queen Mother to be Queen Regnant. Mary did not exercise authority as Queen Mother while Christ was on earth because He had not yet come into His kingdom (Lk 23:42, Rev 12:10). Christ has come into His kingdom, but He is an adult - there is no need for a Queen Mother to rule as there would on behalf of a child king. Mary has the honor of being Queen Mother but that honor is not equivalent to being Queen Regnant.

To tie back to the OP, you can love Mary for what she has done without asking her to intercede with the Intercessor to the Father.

Having read (and discussed on other threads with you, TimothyH) works by those who have developed the Marian theology, I know that the answer to my above objection is “the Lord doesn’t need Mary to be Queen Regnant but desires her to be such”. In other words, the logic does not need to follow. It’s argued to be so by Divine fiat, regardless of support in Scripture. Mary’s total absence in Scripture after Revelation 12 (when she is whisked into the desert in hiding) is handled by de Montfort (author of True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin) by simply saying God kept the Truth hidden for a time to reveal Mary in latter days. He then goes on to impute a critical role for Mary in eschatology - Mary leading the armies of Heaven, Mary having a role in the individual salvation of all beyond the work she had done while on earth, etc. This is incredibly difficult to accept because here we’re adding to Scripture, Montfort essentially changing the character of the last half of Revelation. Here we have conflict between Scripture and a 17th century saint who is fallible.

I’ve read it and it troubles me. Does that make me a heretic or only a sinner? We have in Christ a King, who is King by His own virtue, and Mary who is Queen because of Christ. Whatever good comes from Mary comes because of Christ, and through Christ, so to Christ is owed all praise and thanksgiving. I trust in Jesus to save me, not Mary. Christ the conqueror, counselor, healer, doctor, friend, savior. Christ, not Mary, whom I encounter in the Eucharist. Christ, not Mary, who bled because of my sins. Christ, not Mary, who hears my prayers. Christ, not Mary, who will reap of the earth and who will command His angels to destroy Satan, death and Hell at the end of this age.

Oh yes our art … it very much witnesses to Mary’s Queenship. Mary with the infant Jesus, or the child Jesus, being cradled, swaddled, held, cooed, nursed, etc. Or Mary holding the crucified Jesus. Either way, the art of Mary and Jesus - especially devotional art - is Mary as Queen Regnant and Jesus indisposed. Where is the devotional art of Christ speaking while His mother sits at His feet and listens while He teachers her? Certainly she was present in His life on earth between the periods of childhood and crucifixion.
I’m sorry that you are troubled by Catholic tradition and the teachings of the Popes.

There is nothing more I can say, but I do appreciate your cordiality.

-Tim-
 
When speaking with Protestants about Mary, it is best to use Scripture to back up your arguments - as it is with all other doctrines that are definitively Catholic. Most Protestants are reluctant to accept Church Tradition - they see it simply as “man-made” rather than “divinely inspired”. I find it most effective to first show it in Scripture and then explain how Church Tradition supports it. I also challenge them in showing them that Scripture is one and the same with Church Tradition in that it is “written” Tradition. The two are synonomous and never in opposition.

Another important point to emphasize is that Mary does not detract from Jesus, rather, she points to Jesus. All Catholic doctrine ultimately points to Jesus. The fact is that Protestants love Jesus and if we can show them how Christocentric the Catholic faith really is, they will fall in love with the Catholic Church and with Mary.

God Bless,
CSJ
 
I find myself rather close to Our Blessed Virgin and enjoy praying my rosary, but I am afraid to have the coversation with non Catholic friends as I can’t defend why I love her or have this bond.

Any suggested readings would be fabulous, or even comments to help.
Maybe you could consider using the following line of reasoning when speaking about this to your friends…

1) The Church is composed of a body made up of all Christians, with Christ being the head.

“For the body does not consist of one member but of many.” (1Cor 12:14, RSV)

“…and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.” (Eph 1:22-23, RSV)

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col 1:24, RSV)

2) The head of the Church, Christ, has a mother: Mary.

3) Obviously, the mother of the head of the Church is likewise the mother of the body of the Church. To say otherwise is to try to tear apart the head from the body.

Therefore, Mary is the mother of every Christian, and therefore deserving of our love and respect.

Also note that Jesus gives Mary perfect honor (in the sense of the honor a son owes his mother).
To say otherwise is to say that Jesus does not perfectly follow one of the Ten Commandments.
We should love, honor and respect Mary in imitation of Christ,
and in obedience to the Commandment to honor our mothers.
 
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