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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
“Oh! No!” - means I do not feel like it but if you are skillful I want it.
“oh! no!” - I think that in english, many times, mean, “oh! yes! It is so good!” or am I wrong?
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“oh! no!” - I think that in english, many times, mean, “oh! yes! It is so good!” or am I wrong?
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in_servitude
Guest
Well, for whatever reason last night - this post was stuck in my head. And, so I decided to contemplate and pray about. As a result, I felt compelled to suggest the following:
If you do not already do so, lead your family in prayer every night just before the kids go to bed. I suggest starting simple - give thanks for the good things that happened in your family that day and ask for protection from your guardian angels for the coming night.
I say this because you, being the head of your family, have a role to play as the spiritual leader. I have this weird thought that you stepping up in this way will help draw you closer in every way to your wife and kids.
Second, get your house blessed by a priest or deacon. Ask around for those that do the full distance (use holy water, blessed salt, and incense). You want a loud declaration that all demons must leave your dwelling and stay gone. You’re the man of the house, and it’s your right to demand such a thing.
God bless, and good luck. I will once again ask you to forgive me if I have misunderstood the situation.
If you do not already do so, lead your family in prayer every night just before the kids go to bed. I suggest starting simple - give thanks for the good things that happened in your family that day and ask for protection from your guardian angels for the coming night.
I say this because you, being the head of your family, have a role to play as the spiritual leader. I have this weird thought that you stepping up in this way will help draw you closer in every way to your wife and kids.
Second, get your house blessed by a priest or deacon. Ask around for those that do the full distance (use holy water, blessed salt, and incense). You want a loud declaration that all demons must leave your dwelling and stay gone. You’re the man of the house, and it’s your right to demand such a thing.
God bless, and good luck. I will once again ask you to forgive me if I have misunderstood the situation.
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Sugabee43
Guest
I feel a need to post here…this is similar to my own marriage. I just do not want to have sex - with my husband; with anyone (assuming that, of course, that were any sort of option or even in my value system!). Prior to my conversion, I was a single non-practicing Christian who partied and I did have sex, but monogamously when I had a boyfriend, and I didn’t miss it when I didn’t have a boyfriend. I like affection, but not sex. And yes, I feel all kinds of guilt over not meeting my husband’s needs, but it feels almost like what the OP said - prostitution, in a way. It’s been very difficult for us, and we are in counseling, but it’s almost not worth it because we aren’t getting ‘anywhere’. He feels neglected and I feel guilty and misjudged. And we are one of ‘those couples’ who you would have no idea that this is our situation. There are more factors in our skewed relationship that I am not talking about here, but this is a big one. I don’t want to leave him and I don’t think he wants to leave me (although he’s threatened to, in fits of frustration), but we are not sure how to resolve this. If it were my choice, we’d be best friends and do stuff together but not have sex. I’m certain it’s wouldn’t be his choice. 
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TrueLight
Guest
I’m pretty sure “she” is a “he”.
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TrueLight
Guest
I believe what he is saying in all the wrong ways, and part of that is probably a language gap, is to be romantic and “seduce” your wife.
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Luna_Lovecraft
Guest
And some people scream, “rape!”
OP, when your wife says no, she means no. You have to find a way to work through your issues, but not stopping physical contact when your wife asks you to violates your wife on too many levels to even begin to go into here.
You have to find ways to cope with your situation, but assaulting you wife cannot not be one of them.
Luna
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Luna_Lovecraft
Guest
Luna’s Life Lesson for Today: When it comes to other people touching our bodies, no always, always, always means no. Married or not, sexual, non-sexual - doesn’t matter -non-consentual touching is always wrong.
Verbal seduction is one thing, but even there the line can be crossed into hounding and pestering pretty easily.
But to continue to touch your spouse after they’ve asked you to stop? Nah, you’re really violating boundaries as well as your marriage vows there.
Luna
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JoArtist
Guest
I suggest that she see a doctor,because having this low of a sex drive is not normal. If a physical medical issue is ruled out, then I would go to a therapist because it is probably psychological. Either way , you two should probably go to some sort of marital counseling together. It isn’t right for you to go such long periods with no sex and deal with so much rejection from you wife.
You have obviously been hurt by this and she seems to not want to address the issue. I think it is important that you push for communication and counseling so you can begin to heal your marriage.
You have obviously been hurt by this and she seems to not want to address the issue. I think it is important that you push for communication and counseling so you can begin to heal your marriage.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
I think in this case, you are wrong.
“No!” does not mean “convince me.” It just means, “No.”
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Sarabande
Guest
I would have to say that you would be wrong on this. For me, “No,”, “oh! no!”, “No, not tonight,” etc. has always meant, “No,” and nothing more. I would be very upset with my husband if he kept trying to “convince” me by any means after telling him that, especially since when I do have to say no it’s usually because I am not feeling well and sometimes because I am absolutely exhausted. When I “want it” or feel like I could get in the right mood to “want it”, I would never speak in the negative. I’d make it very clear to him in various ways that I “want it” and/or how I want to get in the mood to “want it”.
OP… I am sorry you are going through this, but I think it was good that you wrote your wife that letter to express your feelings. I have done that myself in the past because I am sometimes much better at communicating my feelings through the written word rather than the spoken word. Doing that has helped my husband and I understand each other better and be able to then open up the dialogue in the spoken word to work things out. I cannot offer any other advice, but know that I will keep you and your wife in your prayers.
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EasterJoy
Guest
OK, but he’s her husband. He isn’t entitled to have sex with her whether she likes it or not, but she isn’t entitled to say “no” indefinitely, either. Four times a year, except by mutual consent, is not definite enough.
He is entitled to say, “Why not now?” (although one would hope he’d add: “Are you OK? Are you depressed? Have I upset you?” and so on) and he entitled to say, “If not now, when?” Sexual relations are intrinsic to the meaning of marriage, and sex with his wife is the only place the OP can legitimately have sexual relations. There have been threads on this before, but if his wife wants so little sex, he is at least entitled to a) answers and b) and honest effort to change the situation.
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tafan
Guest
I assume your wife is catholic, since she has worked at NFP so diligently. As such, she should learn more about catholic morality; sinful actions, even when one is. It culpable due to ignorance, still bring great pain into the world and often to our loved ones. It sounds like this is the case here.
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Luna_Lovecraft
Guest
My reply is to be taken in the context of another poster suggesting that a husband begin sexual contact by touching his wife and ignore her when she says, “No.” This, in my opinion, is irresponsible advice to give someone.
Even then, even if the husband hasn’t had sex with his wife in a decade, if he forced himself on her he runs the risk of permanently destroying his marriage in addition to potentially running afoul of the law.
The poster’s advice to “not take no for an answer” (what I was replying to) also was not given as a pretext to opening some kind of dialogue with the OP’s wife.
No mean no. Always. And not taking no for an answer in the context of my reply is neither seeking answers to the problems in OP’s marriage, nor is it making an honest effort to change the situation.
Of course there’s dialogue, communication, and compromise in all aspects of marriage, including sexual matters. But frankly, if spouses are dissatisfied with their sex lives, the best person to approach this with is their spouse, then their physicians, priests, and/or professional therapists.
I believe that specific discussions of the “marriage debt” and what that really means vis-a-vis Church teachings and individual Catholic marriages should only be discussed in a pastoral situation, not a forum like this one. None of us here can act as the voice of the Church, and none of us can give the OP the kind of pastoral advice that the couple truly needs. We also don’t have the wife’s side of the story, which also would need to come out for accurate help to be given. The danger of coming to an anonymous online forum about sexual issues is of getting advice like what I initially replied to.
To re-cap: no means no. Always.
Luna
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wild_thing
Guest
I agree with Joartist. This low of a sex drive could be an actual physical or psychological problem. While many women have lower sex drives than men, four times a year indicates that there may be a medical problem. If she is willing, she needs to see a good OBGYN who specializes in this area and can see if there is an underlying medical condition to her unwillingness and/or indifference to sexual intercourse.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Yes, I will agree that a spouse may never physically force himself or herself onto his or her spouse. Not only is it ethically wrong, but it is both illegal and a quick way to ruin a marriage. It is domestic violence, and it cannot be condoned. It is too far to say that a husband must never try to persuade his wife to consider changing her mind if she initially refuses, nor is it wrong for him to remind her that he deserves to have relations with her on a regular basis if both are able. That is his right.
For that matter, if a husband has been refused sex for a decade
eek:!!!), let’s not blame him for “permanently destroying his marriage”! Good grief! Don’t you realize that refusing sex and subjecting a husband to rejection time after time will eventually destroy a marriage, too? It goes both ways!! It is our spouse’s right to ask, and we may not refuse without a compelling reason. If such a reason persists, there exists a duty to see if it is possible to address it. Unless sexual relations are no longer possible, no spouse has the perogative to insist that the other quit asking for sex.You are totally right that it would be counterproductive to force this issue, even verbally, but the poster you were responding to wasn’t suggesting that. He was suggesting that initial resistance does not always mean that subject must always be dropped entirely. Sometimes, a person who resists our initial proposal will relent, even when it is a spouse who says they aren’t in the mood for sex. I fail to see what is irresponsible about recognizing that.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
YES
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
Did I say “assault”?
Am I crazy or is someone else crazy?
If I convince my wife to go so something she does not like, like an American Football game, am I assaulting her?
When she convinces me to accompany her to shopping, something I hate, is she assaulting me?
I think that there are people who know how to read but not how to interpret, or rather interpret in ways that are favorable to consider the others “the bad ones” and they themselves “the good ones who correct mistakes, a kinda of Spiderman”.
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
Do not give up.I feel a need to post here…this is similar to my own marriage. I just do not want to have sex - with my husband; with anyone (assuming that, of course, that were any sort of option or even in my value system!). Prior to my conversion, I was a single non-practicing Christian who partied and I did have sex, but monogamously when I had a boyfriend, and I didn’t miss it when I didn’t have a boyfriend. I like affection, but not sex. And yes, I feel all kinds of guilt over not meeting my husband’s needs, but it feels almost like what the OP said - prostitution, in a way. It’s been very difficult for us, and we are in counseling, but it’s almost not worth it because we aren’t getting ‘anywhere’. He feels neglected and I feel guilty and misjudged. And we are one of ‘those couples’ who you would have no idea that this is our situation. There are more factors in our skewed relationship that I am not talking about here, but this is a big one. I don’t want to leave him and I don’t think he wants to leave me (although he’s threatened to, in fits of frustration), but we are not sure how to resolve this. If it were my choice, we’d be best friends and do stuff together but not have sex. I’m certain it’s wouldn’t be his choice.
Now, I ask a question: to have sex, you need to “feel like having it” or “just do it”?
To dress, you need to “feel like dressing” or “just dress it”?
To take a shower, is it needed “to feel like doing it” or “just do it”?
Eating: Sometimes you do not feel appetite but you know you have to eat for you will have plenty of time without eating. Or drinking, 1 hour before a race, though you do not feel like it. And when you are sick you do feel like eating at all and nevertheless you have got to.
Now, sex is being tied too much with romance, with feelings, with mood. You need to be in a mood, to have flowers and caviar and champagne every time you have sex.
But as for meals you do not need to have a banquet each time you have a meal, sometimes you eat a sandwich or some kind of Styrofoam like Mc Donalds and sometimes, very rarely, you have a banquet.
Sex is the same. If one looks for a banquet each time, forget about it.
The mass media transport us to a world where women must be always in the mood, no matter whatever work outside they have, or the work at home, or the hormones imbalances or the crises in society or in the family, sec without “the right romantic mood” is not sex.
But as this world is tough, to reach such heights is impossible and people think they are sexually sick when they are normal.
As in my language is said: “Eating and Scratching, you just need to begin!”.
Moral of the proverb: with sex, just start and go ahead and the desire will come.
Some people scream “rape” because now is fashionable find rapists everywhere and do not care accusing wrongly someone else.
They forget to know that Christian Sex must be Christian and Selfish, meaning: the woman must search for the pleasure of man and man must look for the pleasure of the woman. To look to one’s own pleasure, birds and bees do it, and all animals can do it.
I know of a couple we meet in Christian Meetings who told us: “In our couple, we made an agreement: my body is yours and your body is mine. So, take one’s body as the other’s”
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Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
I am not your husband, you are not my wife.
I am not giving advices to the 1 billion Catholics, or to the 500 million women.
What you said is common. Your experience is right.
But for me, I thank God when I say no for I am exhausted and my wife does not care and goes ahead (no rape, for the visionaries::
. Here, you can always walk and extra-mile and…it is very, very good…
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Sarabande
Guest
Hey, whatever works for you and your wife. That’s great and I mean that with full sincerity.I am not your husband, you are not my wife.
I am not giving advices to the 1 billion Catholics, or to the 500 million women.
What you said is common. Your experience is right.
But for me, I thank God when I say no for I am exhausted and my wife does not care and goes ahead (no rape, for the visionaries::
And really, my husband and I rarely ever turn each other down, so when we do, we both know that we really mean “No,” and respect that of each other. When I’m not in the mood, I actually never say, “No”. I will see how things go from there and he has learned through our marriage what works for me. So, like I say, no really does mean no for me, and I think for most people in their relationships.Perhaps I’m wrong, but due to not acknowledging it in your response, you did seem to ignore the fact that in my post I mentioned that when I do say “no”, it’s “usually” because I am unwell, NOT usually because I’m exhausted. I’m sure you would never try to be intimate with your wife if she had a horrible urinary tract infection that can make things worse for a woman down there if she is intimate, or has other ailments, like nausea, migraines, etc. And I’m sure your wife would never do that to you if you were ill, because the two of you have a healthy and respectful relationship. But you both might be really good at putting your ailments aside for a half hour or more of intimacy and dealing with the ailing physical consequences afterwards, which is great for you both, but most people aren’t like that.
I say this with respect… when advice or any kind of information is posted on a public forum, it should be expected that it will be read by many, many people. You say you are not giving advice to 1 billion Catholics or 500 million women, but there could be a very large number of people, maybe hundreds or thousands, who could come across this thread and read it. It’s not just for yourself and your wife or the one person you are addressing. The way your advice was originally worded is now obviously not how you intended it to sound, but it did come off as saying to just go ahead and do it even if someone says no and means no. People who are reading it will comprehend it in various ways, and it seems for many who have posted, have interpreted it as I have. It comes off as saying to not respect the spouse among other things. Some could even interpret it as to just go ahead and assault your spouse, especially when they are taught from a young age that “No” always means “No”. I did NOT interpret it as such, mainly because I didn’t think anyone would ever advocate that, but I did have to do a double-take on your initial post. I now realize, though, that English is not your first language. My German is very elementary (your English is much better than my German
), so I know I would also more than likely come off differently from what I intended if I was trying to express myself in a second language.It does seem like in the OP’s case, there is something more than just trying to be more romantic and seductive and just going at it, especially since the couple are intimate only about 4 times a year. It can be medical or psychological reasons for this, lack of communication or that the spouse is truly asexual. Those are issues which would need to be addressed by experienced professionals and spiritual counsellors
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