I made a mistake... now I'm probably doomed

[Luis_Santiago]

I made a mistake. Today I proved to my friend that one of the two following things has to be true:

**Abortion is permissible under some circumstances.

A person will go to hell for believing that abortion is permissible under some circumstances.**

In other words, believe this, or go to hell. I proved this to my devout Catholic friend, who generally proves me wrong on these things. He finally settled with saying that merely holding the belief that “abortion is sometimes permissible” is enough to send a person to hell, or at least that having this belief is risky enough that it isn’t worth the chance. Essentially, it’s Pascal’s wager. Since there’s already dozens of contradicting beliefs you have to hold in order to avoid some infinitely negative risk, it’s kind of pointless to hold any of them.

It’s not that I even wanted to prove that. I just can’t have contradicting beliefs without being able to prove one side or the other wrong, especially on something this important. I was actually looking for him to prove me wrong, mind you.

Now, you’re probably going to insist that abortion is murder, killing a person, etc. Even if it is, what is the problem? If we also believe that the victims go straight to heaven, then this isn’t as big of a problem as we make it out to be. And if we believe that, being there, they are somehow incomplete persons because of it, then heaven can’t be perfect. If it is true that , then we are really concerned about the mothers’ souls, because those are the ones in danger. But, if a mother is willing to kill her unborn child, then making a law that says she can’t doesn’t change anything as far as it concerns her salvation.

Now, the real reason killing is bad is that when it happens, we fear for the safety of ourselves and those whom we are close to. But this isn’t an issue with abortion, (except maybe where fathers are concerned, but only in that situation. an unborn child is close to only one person, its mother). Let’s not kid ourselves, abortion being legal isn’t going to result in people coming after us or our fully-born children with knives.

There’s also the argument that God’s logic is incomprehensible to mere mortals, but this means that the Catholic Church is out of its league too, since history is full of theologians like St. Augustine who used vast amounts of logic and reason to shape the beliefs of the early Church. He’s still often quoted today. Of course, we don’t believe everything he wrote, just the parts we agree with.

Now, I guess you can also argue that I’m comparing myself to St. Augustine, and doing a pretty ****** job of it. But this is an ad hominem argument, if it’s an argument at all. My friend truly did exhaust everything he could throw at me.

 

[BRZ]

I have to say that I don’t think you really know about the topic you are discussing and I will explain to you why.The truth is that none of us know who will go to heaven or hell. There is no way of knowing, Only God knows. Speculating on it will achieve nothing. If you want to ask is believing that abortion is okay in some cases grave matter or not, then you have a question that can be discussed. Abortion is in fact grave matter, now whether or not believing it might be okay in some cases is probably not grave matter, and would then be a venial sin. Of course, for it to be mortal it requires 3 conditions (Grave matter, full knowledge and full consent.) Without those it is not a mortal sin. Also, just because someone goes into a state of Mortal sin, doesn’t mean they will always be in that state. They could go to confession, have a change of heart, and there are other forms, although rare, of being forgiven as well. For example, the person is on their deathbed and they have a serious change of heart and truly ask for forgiveness, they will most likely be forgiven even without a confession. There are too many unknowns to speculate on this subject.

So I would say that your original intention doesn’t matter because there is no way to prove whether someone would go to hell or not. However, the Church can determine what is grave matter and what is not grave matter. Abortion is a grave matter because the church says so. I honestly don’t know if, believing that in some cases it might be okay for an abortion, is grave or not.

Oh, and just so you know, we have no idea where the souls of aborted babies go. The Church says to leave it up to the mercy of God, but we have no idea whether they go to heaven, some other place, or hell.

Now, you’re probably going to insist that abortion is murder, killing a person, etc. Even if it is, what is the problem? If we also believe that the victims go straight to heaven, then this isn’t as big of a problem as we make it out to be. And if we believe that, being there, they are somehow incomplete persons because of it, then heaven can’t be perfect. If it is true that , then we are really concerned about the mothers’ souls, because those are the ones in danger. But, if a mother is willing to kill her unborn child, then making a law that says she can’t doesn’t change anything as far as it concerns her salvation.

Here you say if we are concerned about the mother’s soul, it basically doesn’t matter because her intent is to abort her baby and therefore she is damned. However, the fallacy of your logic here is that we should always be concerned with the souls of others, whether they have sinned mortally or not. People can always change and especially with our prayers and good intentions for them! For example, if abortion is not easily available for them and they are forced to conceive the baby it might be that later on in life, they realize how much they love their baby and what a mistake it was to ever consider aborting their baby. That would save their soul. You forget that people are changeable, ever growing, ever changing and that salvation is never denied to those who seek it with an open heart.

 

[rpp]

Has this person read the Catechism 2272?

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” 77 “by the very commission of the offense,” 78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. 79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

Abortion is never permissible under any circumstance.

 

[BRZ]

RPP, I don’t think that is the issue at hand. I don’t think his friend was saying that abortion is okay. I feel like the poster was arguing with his friend about whether:

Abortion is permissible under some circumstances.
or
A person will go to hell for believing that abortion is permissible under some circumstances.

I think he was trying to say he argued with his friend and proved one of these 2 points or got his friend to agree with one of these 2 points. Along those lines.

 

[rpp]

RPP, I don’t think that is the issue at hand. I don’t think his friend was saying that abortion is okay. I feel like the poster was arguing with his friend about whether:

Abortion is permissible under some circumstances.
or
A person will go to hell for believing that abortion is permissible under some circumstances.

I think he was trying to say he argued with his friend and proved one of these 2 points or got his friend to agree with one of these 2 points. Along those lines.

Abortion is never permissible.

As to who goes to Hell, that is up to God. However, an unrepentant a person that supports abortion under any type of circumstance, however limited, puts their immortal soul in grave peril.

 

[Eucharisted]

You don’t go to Hell for beliefs. You go to Hell for mortal sin.

 

[BRZ]

Yeah, but holding a certain belief might put you in a state of mortal sin. (and I say might because I am uncertain)

 

[Eucharisted]

Yeah, but holding a certain belief might put you in a state of mortal sin. (and I say might because I am uncertain)

If that belief is a heresy, which is a mortal sin. A heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same. In laymen terms: Heresy is when a Christian denies a dogma or doctrine of the Church, or is likewise a doubt of some dogma or doctrine which a Christian holds in spite of reason, arguments, or persuation. For example, if a Christian believes Mary was conceived in sin, than he has committed heresy, for he denies the Immaculate Conception of Mary. But mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent, so, if a Christian dose not know about the Immaculate Conception, or, if a Christian denies the Immaculate Conception without complete consent, such as under pain of death, then it is not a mortal sin but a venial sin. Hence, a Christian won’t go to Hell for a belief but for a mortal sin.

 

[Orchanian]

Now, you’re probably going to insist that abortion is murder, killing a person, etc. Even if it is, what is the problem? If we also believe that the victims go straight to heaven, then this isn’t as big of a problem as we make it out to be. And if we believe that, being there, they are somehow incomplete persons because of it, then heaven can’t be perfect. If it is true that , then we are really concerned about the mothers’ souls, because those are the ones in danger. But, if a mother is willing to kill her unborn child, then making a law that says she can’t doesn’t change anything as far as it concerns her salvation.

The problem is that taking a life is violating one of God’s Commandments. It doesn’t matter where the soul of the departed goes; that doesn’t change the gravity of the sin. When David was anointed king but Saul was still the king, David didn’t take Saul’s life, even though he could have. It was up to God to decide when Saul would leave this world.

Also, it is a problem for the woman who has had the abortion. So many women suffer emotionally as a result of their abortions. Clearly, they have realized (too late) the gravity of their action. For a sane, rational person to realize that they have paid someone to kill their own child IS a problem. God cares for our eternal souls - not just those of the unborn. He knows that our actions will harm us. His commandments are there to help us make the right choices so that we can live in harmony with Him.

 

[Snerticus]

I think neither is true.

 

[Mark77]

Same old stupid straw man arguments.

“Abortion is permissible under some circumstances.” Wrong, it is never permissible!

“A person will go to hell for believing that abortion is permissible under some circumstances” Technically correct! If at the hour of your death Jesus asks you ‘if you believe that abortion is permissible under some circumstances’ and you say yes, then you will have to answer for that cooperation in grave evil!.

**It’s a simple answer as the Church has always taught us; “ABORTION IS ALWAYS A GRAVE EVIL, IT IS NEVER, NEVER, NEVER… OK TO MURDER AN INNOCENT BABY!!!”
**

It’s just common sense, who would ever murder their baby???

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[mapleoak]

I made a mistake. Today I proved to my friend that one of the two following things has to be true:

Abortion is permissible under some circumstances.

this one is false, abortion is not permissible under any circumstances.
**

A person will go to hell for believing that abortion is permissible under some circumstances.

**This one is true if knowing that abortion is condemned always and everywhere by the Church and choosing to disagree with Church, one dies unrepentant. To reject a such teaching, of which belief is required by all of the faithful, is to commit mortal sin.

Now, you’re probably going to insist that abortion is murder, killing a person, etc. Even if it is, what is the problem?

What is the problem with killing someone?

If we also believe that the victims go straight to heaven, then this isn’t as big of a problem as we make it out to be.

So it really isn’t as big a deal as we make it out to be when a gunman goes and shoots a bunch of kids who haven’t yet attained the age of reason either then, right?

And if we believe that, being there, they are somehow incomplete persons because of it, then heaven can’t be perfect. If it is true that , then we are really concerned about the mothers’ souls, because those are the ones in danger. But, if a mother is willing to kill her unborn child, then making a law that says she can’t doesn’t change anything as far as it concerns her salvation.

All that is necessary for sin is consent of the will. Making something illegal will not change that. The purposes of laws are not to save the mothers’ souls. Abortion needs to be outlawed in order to protect the unborn from those who wish to kill them.

 

[jmcrae]

Now, you’re probably going to insist that abortion is murder, killing a person, etc. Even if it is, what is the problem?

As a matter of personal piety, I tend to believe that all victims of murder go to Heaven or at least to Purgatory, owing to their opportunity for conversion being robbed from them by the artificial shortening of their life; nevertheless, it is not only the fear of the police that prevents me from going around murdering those of my neighbors who most need additional graces to go to Heaven.

The reason, rather, is that it is not my job to stop what God has started, nor to interfere with God’s plan for that person’s life, and God’s plan for the world.

God has a good reason for creating people. He does this, not only for their own benefit, but also for our benefit. Those children have a purpose in life that includes sharing their love with us, and us sharing our love with them. In sharing love, we all change and grow. Each of those children is also gifted with a particular talent and a particular mission in life that is an essential part of God’s purpose for the whole world.

By killing someone, we are taking away an essential piece of God’s plan, and forcing Him to make do, or do without, some aspect of the great good that He has in mind for our world.

 

[bilop]

As a matter of personal piety, I tend to believe that all victims of murder go to Heaven or at least to Purgatory, owing to their opportunity for conversion being robbed from them by the artificial shortening of their life; nevertheless, it is not only the fear of the police that prevents me from going around murdering those of my neighbors who most need additional graces to go to Heaven.

I think that is a very dangerous belief. It is de fide that someone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell. Unless they were on there way to confession when murdered they had a chance to repent.

I think you recognize this in your second sentence b/c this line of thinking can take you in the direction of the Albigensian/Cathar heresies, where they murdered people thinking they would go to Heaven.

If you want to hold this belief about abortion victims, or children killed before the age of reason, I think that is OK, and within the bounds of Church teaching. So is the opposite belief. But for adults who have mortal sin on their souls, I don’t think your position is tenable.

God Bless

 

[jmcrae]

I think that is a very dangerous belief. It is de fide that someone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to Hell. Unless they were on there way to confession when murdered they had a chance to repent.

Which the murderer in most cases wouldn’t care about, anyway - and actually most murderers commit their crimes because they have become convinced that the victim is a terrible sinner who deserves to die, so if asked they would probably say that the person had gone to Hell, or else had ceased to exist altogether - assuming they think about the subject at all.

My point was that it is not acceptable to murder someone, even if one is of the belief that the victim goes to Heaven, and even if it is not likely that you would be arrested for doing so (as is currently the case with abortion).

I don’t want to go off on a tangent.