I met this American seminarian in Rome

[SerraSemper]

while in line for a Mass at St. Peter’s basilica. While chatting, he discovered that I was studying canon law and his visible reaction was “how boring!”. When I told him the subject of my thesis, his attitude towards canon law changed dramatically and he begged me for a copy of my thesis. Why?

Before I get into the why, I would like to say this. Without knowing your rights and obligations in the Church, you set yourself up to be a victim of an abuse of power in the Church. It could be your religious superior who steps outside the bounds of holy obedience and requires something of you that she cannot lawfully demand. You could be the victim of a cult masquerading as an approved religious order or association of the faithful. You might be unlawfully refused the sacraments or participation in a ministry. You might be a priest stranded without civil or canonical advice when accused of certain acts against minors despite your bishop’s obligation to provide defense for you.

The consequences of not being an informed Catholic and jumping on the bandwagon can cost you. I know people who have lost their belief in God because of their experiences in the Church in which they were victims of an abuse of power. Here are some things which can be lost: one’s reputation (if you’re a priest, this means everything because you can’t function as a priest without a good reputation… one false accusation and you might be a gonner); one’s livelihood; one’s friends; one’s soul; one’s innocence; and the list of biggies goes on.

Let me put it in another way. When you make a decision regarding your state of life (vocation) then do yourself a favor. Get a canon lawyer and perhaps civil lawyer to advise you. 5 years down the road you might be thanking me for this post when you are booted out of a new “congregation” and you have a trust fund to buoy you up as you transition back to normal life.

So why was the seminarian interested in what I had to say? Simple. I wrote on the Canonical Protections against Unwarranted Intrusions into the Conscience… with big implications for everyone, particularly priests and religious. To this day, people’s rights are being violated on this… and this seminarian knew many who had gravely suffered because of a disrespect for our laws on this subject. Historically, certain people were liable for excommunication for prying into other’s consciences… and unfortunately, although that penalty is now gone, people still continue to violate the norms of the Church in this regard.

My two cents for the day.

 

[chicago]

Alright, well then tell us a little something about the topic, kindly.

 

[SerraSemper]

While I have an article on my thesis topic published in Parole, I have not uploaded a scanned copy to my professional website just yet. Since I will not be online much for the next week or two, and am in a hurry at the moment, I suggest that you look up Pete Vere, JCL’s excellent article online entitled “Sifting Wheat from the Tares”, especially at sign #13. It can give you some ideas as to what is in my thesis.

God bless!

 

[SerraSemper]

P.S. My original post was meant merely to point out that people need to be very, very, very careful when discerning a vocation to a particular place. My example of the seminarian was a case in point: he had seen people gravely suffer from a violation of their rights because they did not know their rights. I cannot get into detail about what the problem was, but rest assured, it was related to a violation of conscience material.

 

[Seminarian_Tim]

P.S. My original post was meant merely to point out that people need to be very, very, very careful when discerning a vocation to a particular place. My example of the seminarian was a case in point: he had seen people gravely suffer from a violation of their rights because they did not know their rights. I cannot get into detail about what the problem was, but rest assured, it was related to a violation of conscience material.

I understand what you’re doing, but I would warn you to be extremely prudent about your tone when writing your thesis. People’s rights should be upheld in any institution, but keep in mind that any attempt to subvert obedience to higher authority in the Church (whether it be rector, bishop, pastor, etc.) is WRONG. People hear they have “rights” to things and all of a sudden they think they can question whatever they want from whoever they want, which is NOT true. Some things people just don’t have a say in, that’s why the Church has a hierarchical structure.

I’m not attacking you, I’m just warning you that if you’re not careful it could very easily turn into a support for a democratic Church, and the Church isn’t a democracy and never has been. There are some rights Catholics don’t have, and one of them is questioning every little thing that Fr. So and So or Bishop Whoever does.

 

[SerraSemper]

Seminarian Tim,

I agree that nothing should be done to subvert authority.

On the other hand, no one should be a victim of an abuse of authority. By properly studying one’s rights (as all seminarians ought in their canon law classes), a balanced person should realize that they have a duty to “disobey” certain commands or requests, and others, they should merit the virtue of obedience by complying.

By the way, my thesis was given a 10/10 grade in Rome.

 

[Orogeny]

On the other hand, no one should be a victim of an abuse of authority. By properly studying one’s rights (as all seminarians ought in their canon law classes), a balanced person should realize that they have a duty to “disobey” certain commands or requests, and others, they should merit the virtue of obedience by complying.

So, instead of us having to read someone else’s article, why don’t you give us an example of what you are talking about?

Peace

Tim

 

[SerraSemper]

Excuse me? I am giving you an example of what I’m talking about. Read the entire article very carefully and you will see numerous warning signs of things to look for… and look in particular at sign #13. Is this disrespectful to authority? I would hope not. And as I mentioned above, my own published article is still offline although if you search for it online, you will find it was published by the Angelicum’s Parole. I do not have the time to post a scanned copy of the article yet nor do I believe has APUST published their version online. Sorry! Until I am finished moving, I don’t think I have the time to unpack it. I stand by my earlier comment that stated the general principle of “you need to be careful”.

 

[nightwalker]

While we wait for SerraSemper to get her article online, here is the portion of Peter Vere’s article:

13. Control over the choice of confessors and spiritual directors

Confession and spiritual direction concern the internal forum — that is, those things that are private to a person’s conscience. Within reasonable limits, a person should be free to choose his or her confessor and spiritual director. On the other hand, obedience to one’s superiors in carrying out an association’s apostolate or ministry concerns the external forum. In other words, the latter are public actions that can be externally verified.

The roles of confessor and spiritual director should never be confused with the role of superior. Nor should there even be the appearance of confusion. Of particular concern to canonists is when a superior imposes himself as confessor and/or spiritual director of a member under his charge. After all, a superior will have to make decisions about a member’s future — and in so doing there exists a strong temptation to make use of information gathered under the seal of confession.

SierraSemper, providing a link to this would allay the unease some of us have with the hinting around the issue you wish to discuss.

 

[Seminarian_Tim]

a balanced person should realize that they have a duty to “disobey” certain commands or requests, and others, they should merit the virtue of obedience by complying.

That sounds a little better, but I still wouldn’t advise every Catholic to get a Canon lawyer. That’s making the assumption that people WILL abuse power, whereas in many cases the abuse of power isn’t frequent. Remember, the Chuch gives their people power for a reason…they’re not just names picked out of a hat. Honestly, I find it offensive to the Church hierarchy for someone to simply “lawyer up” and flip through the Canons the minute they think their rights have been violated.

Get a canon lawyer and perhaps civil lawyer to advise you.

Let’s give those in power the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming that Catholics have this burden of obedience, which, when properly embraced isn’t a burden at all.

P.S. While your grade on your thesis is noteworthy, it does not give us any added reason to accept your arguments or affirm the quality of your work. In philosophy land, this is an appeal to authority (whoever graded your thesis) and simply gives us an opinion of one (or more) readers. Please keep this in mind.

 

[Ager_Flandriae]

I have been reading with great interest the exchange regarding canonical rights.

I would like to begin by congratulating Serra on receiving a 10/10 on her thesis, and can assure Seminarian Tim that the professors of the canon law faculty at the Angelicum are, by and large, very keen intellects who will grade based on the quality of one’s arguments.

From personal experience based on over five years in the seminary system, I know all too well that there are many occasions when the canonical rights of seminarians, religious, and laity are trampled upon. We must not forget that the Church is both human and divine in her constitution, and to deny the human element of the Church, with all of the concomitant sinfulness, is to deny reality.

Seminarian Tim said: “Remember, the Chuch gives their people power for a reason…they’re not just names picked out of a hat.” Perhaps he might want to examine a bit more closely the history of the Church, and see that even the Roman Pontiffs themselves, in days past, have been guilty of some of the most sordid crimes, including but not limited to nepotism (which still does exist).

Lord Acton once stated that all power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. While I firmly believe that the authority of the clergy ought to be respected, there are always limits to authority. A bishop, priest, or anyone else acting in the name of the Church ought to exercise their authority in the same way that Our Lord exercised his - in the spirit of humility and charity. Sadly, since none of us are free of the burden of original sin (including bishops), this does not always happen. I have seen it and experienced it myself.

Hence, it is a bit of an oversimplification to say that we should simply always give the clergy the benefit of the doubt. The recent scandals in the Church ought to prove the contrary.

I would be most interested in reading Serra’s thesis. I think it is very prudent to consult with a canonist and civil attorney concerning one’s rights before one enters a seminary or religious community, because sadly, abuses of power DO happen.

 

[Seminarian_Tim]

I have been reading with great interest the exchange regarding canonical rights.

I would like to begin by congratulating Serra on receiving a 10/10 on her thesis, and can assure Seminarian Tim that the professors of the canon law faculty at the Angelicum are, by and large, very keen intellects who will grade based on the quality of one’s arguments.

From personal experience based on over five years in the seminary system, I know all too well that there are many occasions when the canonical rights of seminarians, religious, and laity are trampled upon. We must not forget that the Church is both human and divine in her constitution, and to deny the human element of the Church, with all of the concomitant sinfulness, is to deny reality.

Seminarian Tim said: “Remember, the Chuch gives their people power for a reason…they’re not just names picked out of a hat.” Perhaps he might want to examine a bit more closely the history of the Church, and see that even the Roman Pontiffs themselves, in days past, have been guilty of some of the most sordid crimes, including but not limited to nepotism (which still does exist).

Lord Acton once stated that all power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. While I firmly believe that the authority of the clergy ought to be respected, there are always limits to authority. A bishop, priest, or anyone else acting in the name of the Church ought to exercise their authority in the same way that Our Lord exercised his - in the spirit of humility and charity. Sadly, since none of us are free of the burden of original sin (including bishops), this does not always happen. I have seen it and experienced it myself.

Hence, it is a bit of an oversimplification to say that we should simply always give the clergy the benefit of the doubt. The recent scandals in the Church ought to prove the contrary.

I would be most interested in reading Serra’s thesis. I think it is very prudent to consult with a canonist and civil attorney concerning one’s rights before one enters a seminary or religious community, because sadly, abuses of power DO happen.

I respect and appreciate your reply. I realize we’ve had some less than holy popes, all I’m saying is that I don’t think we set a good tone by assuming that we’re going to be taken advantage of by every person who holds power. What about having faith in our shepherds that they will lead us with care?

Also, my comment on her grade wasn’t to downplay the intelligence of the Angelicum…it was merely to point out that a) I have no reason to believe she actually got what she said she did just because she tells me that and b) it’s the opinion of whoever graded the thesis, as I stated previously. That person could have four doctorates, but it’s still just an opinion.

 

[Ager_Flandriae]

Seminarian Tim, thank you for taking the time to reply.

Perhaps the best thing advice I can give about trusting those in authority over us in the Church is the old saying “Trust, but verify.” There are, and always will be, lupi in vestitu ovorum in the Church, and being prudent with those individuals in whom we place our trust is simply common sense.

In response again to your comment about the Angelicum, retorqueo argumentum dicens: You have been speaking quite a lot about trusting those in authority in the Church. Shouldn’t we, by your logic, extend this same trust to those who are teaching in a pontifical faculty in Rome? It is my understanding that the purpose of a university is to help separate truth from opinion, and if a pontifical faculty gives a grade of 10/10, thereby granting a person the degree of licence in canon law, I think that should be taken with some seriousness.

Many blessings to you as you continue to follow Our Lord.

Oremus pro invicem!

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Excellent thread…even for such as I. Thank you for posting, Serra Semper, it has been helpful to me.

Blessings and regards…Barb

 

[Seminarian_Tim]

Seminarian Tim, thank you for taking the time to reply.

Perhaps the best thing advice I can give about trusting those in authority over us in the Church is the old saying “Trust, but verify.” There are, and always will be, lupi in vestitu ovorum in the Church, and being prudent with those individuals in whom we place our trust is simply common sense.

In response again to your comment about the Angelicum, retorqueo argumentum dicens: You have been speaking quite a lot about trusting those in authority in the Church. Shouldn’t we, by your logic, extend this same trust to those who are teaching in a pontifical faculty in Rome? It is my understanding that the purpose of a university is to help separate truth from opinion, and if a pontifical faculty gives a grade of 10/10, thereby granting a person the degree of licence in canon law, I think that should be taken with some seriousness.

Many blessings to you as you continue to follow Our Lord.

Oremus pro invicem!

What I was pointing out there had nothing to do with a leap of faith of any kind. If I am simply looking at a document for the first time, who may or may not have approved of the document before my reading of it should have no bearing on my own opinion of its merit. To bias my own opinion in any direction because of another person’s endorsement isn’t doing my objective rationality justice.

I just didn’t think the grade should have been posted, that’s all. If the thesis is indeed good, that quality will speak to the members here without the grade ever needing to be known.

 

[SerraSemper]

Seminarian Tim,

I am posting this update so you know I haven’t entirely disappeared… I am still in the middle of a major move and will not be able to post the article for a while. This move is quite time consuming and prayers are requested… Who knows… if you’re a diocesan seminarian, perhaps I might even sign up to be on your faculty as I am qualified to teach seminarians.

You objected to my posting my grade. I only did that to indicate that although you cautioned me to be careful in “tone” with my thesis, my tone was acceptable enough to be received quite favorably.

You are entitled to your opinion that it is not extremely advantageous to consult a canon/civil lawyer before entering the seminary or joining the religious life. However, I will note that in my experience and those of people in my network of friends and contacts in several countries, it is precisely because there is ignorance of, or blatant ignoring of the rights of seminarians and religious that there are lots of abuses which occur. If worldly people consult their attorneys when purchasing land or making transactions, why shouldn’t someone consult a canon lawyer when making a serious lifelong decision?

Do you know your rights? Do you know what to do if you are summoned to the bishop as a pastor and discover that you have been accused of a delict and they require you to resign your parish on the spot? If you’ve watched one of the documentaries on Padre Pio, you would have seen a scene where he was asked to give an enormous amount of money to bail out his order from restricted funds donated for his hospital. Would you have made a transfer of restricted funds to the order when pressured under the vow of obedience? The Code wasn’t written for the pleasure of arm chair specialists. It was written in answer to common, every day problems that occur, a portion of which has to do with authority and its limitations in law.

As I’ve mentioned before, I will be posting my published article on conscience when I can get to it. But, I have no intention of otherwise continuing this thread.

 

[Seminarian_Tim]

Your responses are informative and articulate. It was not my intention to undermine your intelligence or question your credibility. Honestly, I was playing Devil’s Advocate and you’ve quelled my arguments quite well.

Good luck with everything, and God Bless!