I might have misunderstood Purgatory

[sw85]

Take frequent advantage of indulgences. You can gain a plenary indulgence a day and it’s typically easy (pray the rosary in church, read Scripture for half an hour, etc.). If you have no great need of them, give them up to the souls in Purgatory that do.

Also, consider making the heroic act of charity.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

This is one way of looking at things, but you don’t seem to quite understand how… painful Purgatory will be. My parish priest explained it in a sermon, when we was talking about how we waste time with activities in our life which we are gaining neither temporal nor spiritual merit. Then he said that Purgatory is the GREATEST WASTE of time any person can possibly make.

Here on earth, we are able to remit our temporal punishment MUCH easier than we can in Purgatory. In Purgatory we are simply suspended there, suffering horribly in our sorrow for our sins with nothing to do to remit them but WAIT for the necessary graces to come from those on earth offering prayers for us. On earth, our senses are darkened by the fall, making it so that we perceive time quicker than it really travels. In Purgatory, not so. Time will appear MUCH slower as we suffer through our sins.

I have decided that Purgatory isn’t my safety net to catch me when I die. It is my TENTH safety net, if I fail in all other things. It is a dangerous path on earth to sin figuring “Oh, it’s not mortal, Purgatory will take care of that for me,” because Purgatory is truly much harder than just finding remission of sins here on earth.

Yes, but even with all of that suffering, you will have the knowledge that soon (relative to eternity at least) you will be with God; permanently; with no more suffering, ever. I’m with you though, I really need to start doing indulgences more, I have a lot of sins to make up for <_<

 

[dshix]

Yes, but even with all of that suffering, you will have the knowledge that soon (relative to eternity at least) you will be with God; permanently; with no more suffering, ever. I’m with you though, I really need to start doing indulgences more, I have a lot of sins to make up for <_<

Oh, of course I agree, but I was directly responding to the tone of the poster I quoted who appeared to think purgatory was some kind of boring amusement park. It isn’t neutral; it’s painful.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Oh, of course I agree, but I was directly responding to the tone of the poster I quoted who appeared to think purgatory was some kind of boring amusement park. It isn’t neutral; it’s painful.

Ah, then yes, I agree with what you wrote. I am not looking forward to those pains… I’m probably going to be there for a while, but I am looking forward to that certainty; the absolute unyielding knowledge that I will be with God eventually.

 

[Brendan_64]

Note: Baptism remits all sins and temporal punishment. Confession remits only sins.

Charlemagne worked that out the crafty so and so. Getting baptised on his death bed (as did Constantine). A devious move that. I wonder what was said to him when he passed through to the other side?

 

[Robertanthony]

This is one way of looking at things, but you don’t seem to quite understand how… painful Purgatory will be. My parish priest explained it in a sermon, when we was talking about how we waste time with activities in our life which we are gaining neither temporal nor spiritual merit. Then he said that Purgatory is the GREATEST WASTE of time any person can possibly make.

Here on earth, we are able to remit our temporal punishment MUCH easier than we can in Purgatory. In Purgatory we are simply suspended there, suffering horribly in our sorrow for our sins with nothing to do to remit them but WAIT for the necessary graces to come from those on earth offering prayers for us. On earth, our senses are darkened by the fall, making it so that we perceive time quicker than it really travels. In Purgatory, not so. Time will appear MUCH slower as we suffer through our sins.

I have decided that Purgatory isn’t my safety net to catch me when I die. It is my TENTH safety net, if I fail in all other things. It is a dangerous path on earth to sin figuring “Oh, it’s not mortal, Purgatory will take care of that for me,” because Purgatory is truly much harder than just finding remission of sins here on earth.

Because of my personality and different life events, I am afflicted by a deep-seated representation that God predestined me to a life of misery and, ultimately, to an eternity that will be a natural continuation of my life. I expect hardship, disappointment, and crumbs from God, so i expect God to reject me when I face him. IF he doesn’t reject me, Purgatory will rid me of my cloak of heaviness and affliction. Knowing I’m leaving behind all the negativity and moving forward to an eternity of joy and contentment, knowing I could have easily been sentenced to Hell, where I would have been in the company of, literally, the scum of the Earth and demons, I will heave one huge sigh of relief. All the best to those who want to avoid it like the plague, losers like me will gladly settle for the antechamber of Heaven.

 

[EphelDuath]

Charlemagne worked that out the crafty so and so. Getting baptised on his death bed (as did Constantine). A devious move that. I wonder what was said to him when he passed through to the other side?

Charlemagne wasn’t baptized on his death bed. Constantine was, but it was a practice that was not condemned by the Church at the time, and was not perceived to be a malevolent loophole.

 

[Robertanthony]

Charlemagne wasn’t baptized on his death bed. Constantine was, but it was a practice that was not condemned by the Church at the time, and was not perceived to be a malevolent loophole.

Let me get this straight: if Anton Lavey had waited to the very end of his life to be baptized (incidentally, he died in a Catholic hospital, of all places), he would have gone straight to Heaven? How is that not bypassing God’s justice? How is that not a parody of justice?

 

[EphelDuath]

Let me get this straight: if Anton Lavey had waited to the very end of his life to be baptized (incidentally, he died in a Catholic hospital, of all places), he would have gone straight to Heaven? How is that not bypassing God’s justice? How is that not a parody of justice?

Many assumptions here.

Firstly, if ANYBODY, whether it be a satanist or Mao Zedong or Osama bin Laden, has a sincere true-of-heart conversion to Christ and are baptized, then they are a new person. Please refrain from judging them, that is God’s domain.

Secondly, since judgment is God’s domain, we must accept that there is no guarantee that a baptized person who dies before committing any post baptismal sins is guaranteed salvation. Again, only God is qualified and permitted to be the arbiter of the fate of a man’s soul.

Thirdly, as I noted, in the 4th century, deathbed baptism was an accepted practice. Therefore I would refrain from judging the people who were baptized by that method in that era, since they were doing something that was not considered ill-intended by the Church. We must consider it part of God’s providence that some people may not have been baptized due to refraining until the last possible moment but died instantaneously, and some were baptized under the same mentality/conditions. We don’t know what happened to their souls. It’s not our place to know.

 

[revert_jen]

Let me get this straight: if Anton Lavey had waited to the very end of his life to be baptized (incidentally, he died in a Catholic hospital, of all places), he would have gone straight to Heaven? How is that not bypassing God’s justice? How is that not a parody of justice?

I think the official answer to that objection is found in Matt. 20:1-16.

–Jen

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Let me get this straight: if Anton Lavey had waited to the very end of his life to be baptized (incidentally, he died in a Catholic hospital, of all places), he would have gone straight to Heaven? How is that not bypassing God’s justice? How is that not a parody of justice?

If he had a true revelation and was truly sorry for all the evil he’d wrought, would you deny him a chance to beg God’s forgiveness?

 

[dshix]

Because of my personality and different life events, I am afflicted by a deep-seated representation that God predestined me to a life of misery and, ultimately, to an eternity that will be a natural continuation of my life. I expect hardship, disappointment, and crumbs from God, so i expect God to reject me when I face him. IF he doesn’t reject me, Purgatory will rid me of my cloak of heaviness and affliction. Knowing I’m leaving behind all the negativity and moving forward to an eternity of joy and contentment, knowing I could have easily been sentenced to Hell, where I would have been in the company of, literally, the scum of the Earth and demons, I will heave one huge sigh of relief. All the best to those who want to avoid it like the plague, losers like me will gladly settle for the antechamber of Heaven.

What do you mean, “an eternity that will be a natural continuation of my life.”? Our spiritual life is entirely above and beyond our physical life, and no matter how great your sufferings are you can still attain everlasting happiness. God will not reject you if you go to Him begging for forgiveness and acceptance; only you can reject God.

The only thing that could cause you to fall into Hell is your own choice, your own actions. God is infinitely just; if you merit Heaven, you will attain it.

Do not despair in God’s mercy and goodness. As a matter of fact, it is a sin to despair in God, and your despair in His justice may actually cause you to be unworthy of Heaven. Trust in God, and put your soul into His possession.

 

[sw85]

Let me get this straight: if Anton Lavey had waited to the very end of his life to be baptized (incidentally, he died in a Catholic hospital, of all places), he would have gone straight to Heaven? How is that not bypassing God’s justice? How is that not a parody of justice?

Anton Lavey deserves to go to Hell. Charlemagne and Constantine deserved to go to Hell. You deserve to go to Hell. I deserve to go to Hell. Every human being who has ever lived except Christ and His Mother deserve to go to Hell (and even she got Heaven only by His grace).

Forgiveness is always a “parody of justice.” More appropriately, it’s the deliberate foregoing of justice for the sake of something greater. You shouldn’t be bitter that people like Hitler can get to Heaven if they repent. You should be rejoicing that, if God can save Hitler, He can surely save you, too.

 

[Usige]

:clapping:

Anton Lavey deserves to go to Hell. Charlemagne and Constantine deserved to go to Hell. You deserve to go to Hell. I deserve to go to Hell. Every human being who has ever lived except Christ and His Mother deserve to go to Hell (and even she got Heaven only by His grace).

Forgiveness is always a “parody of justice.” More appropriately, it’s the deliberate foregoing of justice for the sake of something greater. You shouldn’t be bitter that people like Hitler can get to Heaven if they repent. You should be rejoicing that, if God can save Hitler, He can surely save you, too.

:clapping:

Just think of the parable of the prodigal son. The Father rejoices for the son the returns just as the Shepard rejoices when the lost sheep is found. We should rejoice when people turn to the Lord in forgiveness; even if its at the end of their lives.

 

[Robertanthony]

If he had a true revelation and was truly sorry for all the evil he’d wrought, would you deny him a chance to beg God’s forgiveness?

Course not. I guess what I was saying is if someone deliberately mocked God by delaying their baptism just so they could sin cheerfully and be baptised hours or days before their death and go straight to Heaven. If someone gets a valid baptism and doesn’t commit another sin before they pass away, they have no temporal punishment to expiate=straight to Heaven. I mean God will do whatever he will, but that’s a concept that’s hard to grasp: with the right kind of tactic, Anton Lavey, no matter how cruel or degenerate he might have been, would have gone from a satanist on Monday to be with God almighty on Saturday. That is mind-boggling.

 

[Brendan_64]

I wonder if a person was baptised under those circumstances (i.e. if it was a deliberate ploy to enable them to be able sin as they wish in their life knowing that, if at the end, they get a baptism they would be able to avoid any consequences for their sins) would the deliberate deceit on the part of the person being baptised invalidate the baptism?

If a sinner, no matter how great the sins, feels a geniune repentance and gets baptised before death then fair enough, but if someone deliberately uses the Sacrament of Baptism for their own selfish as an attempt to use it as a loophole to cover up sin without repentance, would that not be a grave sin in itself? Perhaps that would constitute a mortal sin that would still be an active sin after the baptism, as the person’s intent would still be their mind before, during, AND after the baptism? Is there anyone on here who could shed any light on this?

 

[hansard]

Hmm. Interesting how the thread has gone from Purgatory to the state of the soul at death. Those are not unrelated concepts by any means, but it is still interesting how discussions go.

I just wanted to add: it’s hard to imagine a death-bed conversion, repentance or Baptism being undertaken for anything other than self-serving motives.

What motive could there be in a death-bed conversion other than the chance of last-minute salvation?

Why would one confess and repent on the death-bed if it were not for the chance of salvation? Even a genuine, heart-felt confession is like a last gasp, a last clutch at something, anything.

I suppose we have to rely on God to “see through” all these deeds and to sort out the genuine from the dodgy.

 

[EphelDuath]

Hmm. Interesting how the thread has gone from Purgatory to the state of the soul at death. Those are not unrelated concepts by any means, but it is still interesting how discussions go.

I just wanted to add: it’s hard to imagine a death-bed conversion, repentance or Baptism being undertaken for anything other than self-serving motives.

What motive could there be in a death-bed conversion other than the chance of last-minute salvation?

Why would one confess and repent on the death-bed if it were not for the chance of salvation? Even a genuine, heart-felt confession is like a last gasp, a last clutch at something, anything.

I suppose we have to rely on God to “see through” all these deeds and to sort out the genuine from the dodgy.

Perhaps a deathbed revelation. Perhaps the person, in life, lived in a place that persecuted Catholics (e.g. Charles II of England).