I morally object to saying the pledge of allegiance

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MetalMark

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Is this wrong?

I find the idea of saying the pledge of allegiance utterly repulsive; my allegiance is to God and only God, not a nation that has legalized the murder of children. Even if abortion was outlawed, I would still object to pledging allegiance to any particular nation at all.
 
MetalMark said:
Is this wrong?

I find the idea of saying the pledge of allegiance utterly repulsive; my allegiance is to God and only God, not a nation that has legalized the murder of children. Even if abortion was outlawed, I would still object to pledging allegiance to any particular nation at all.
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Someday, when you are an adult, I hope you come to realize that you have the privilege of living in the greatest country on earth. God has truly blessed this nation and hopefully, one day, you will come to see this. God bless you.
 
mary_bobo said:
Someday, when you are an adult, I hope you come to realize that you have the privilege of living in the greatest country on earth. God has truly blessed this nation and hopefully, one day, you will come to see this. God bless you.
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I’m very much aware of how privileged I am to live here. This will not, however, change the fact I am repulsed by the idea of pledging allegiance to any nation at all.
 
Hi Mark,

Here is what St. Thomas Aquinas says about patriotism:
Man becomes a debtor to other men in various ways, according to their various excellence and the various benefits received from them. On both counts God holds first place, for He is supremely excellent, and is for us the first principle of being and government. On the second place, the principles of our being and government are our parents and our country, that have given us birth and nourishment. Consequently man is debtor chiefly to his parents and his country, after God. Wherefore just as it belongs to religion to give worship to God, so does it belong to piety, in the second place, to give worship to one’s parents and one’s country. (ST, II-II, 101, 1)
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Note that the word “worship” is used in two different ways here: the first towards God, in the way we are familiar with the word. The second, towards things other than God, is a lesser kind of “worship” – veneration, honoring.

VC
 
Flag waving aside, there is no real moral obligation to be patriotic. The USA doesn’t have to be the best country in the world just because you were born in it.
 
so what is it exactly about “…one nation under God…” that you find so repulsive?
 
tjm190 said:
Flag waving aside, there is no real moral obligation to be patriotic. The USA doesn’t have to be the best country in the world just because you were born in it.
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tjm,

I don’t think we are talking just about the USA, it could apply to any country.

Here’s something from the Baltimore Catechism:
135. Which are some of the other moral virtues?
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Code: 
  (. . .) Filial piety and patriotism, which dispose us to honor, love, and respect our parents and our country. (. . .)
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VC
 
Julian0404 said:
so what is it exactly about “…one nation under God…” that you find so repulsive?
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  1. That was not in the original version.
  2. The nation as a whole, our society and culture, does not behave like one.
 
tjm190 said:
Flag waving aside, there is no real moral obligation to be patriotic. The USA doesn’t have to be the best country in the world just because you were born in it.
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Exactly. As someone who “pledged allegiance” to more than one country during my lifetime, I can vouch that that kind of patriotism is completely sentimental and not based on actual goodness of one’s country. All patriots in the world believe their country is the best, not just Americans. Though I believe that the U.S. is fortunate to have the best political system in the world, I don’t know that it necessarily makes it more worthy of one’s heart and allegiance, especially in light of the current moral fabric that the OP alluded to.

We usually pledge allegiance to our history, upbringing, parents, memories, and other fond sentiments that we encapsulate in the concept of America. All fickle if you ask me. We are to be citizens of heaven and only unchanging God is truly worthy of our allegiance and love. This is why saints are so detached from the world. Holy detachment is a necessary step that we will all take on our way to our true Fatherland.
 
That’s okay, you don’t have to honor your country. But then don’t call the Police when you are in trouble. Do not go to a lawyer and ask the courts to interevene when someone wrongs you. Do not go to state and federal parks. Don’t get on a bus. Don’t apply for any type of federal aid. Don’t mail a letter. Put your money where your mouth is and follow your convictions completely. Don’t pledge to your country and then invoke their aid when you’re in trouble. Deal with it yourself, and the consequences that come with it.

I’m sure you will change your mind when you grow up and are able to think rationally on what the Pledge of Allegiance means, for you and for everyone else.
 
Rence said:
That’s okay, you don’t have to honor your country. But then don’t call the Police when you are in trouble. Do not go to a lawyer and ask the courts to interevene when someone wrongs you. Do not go to state and federal parks. Don’t get on a bus. Don’t apply for any type of federal aid. Don’t mail a letter. Put your money where your mouth is and follow your convictions completely. Don’t pledge to your country and then invoke their aid when you’re in trouble. Deal with it yourself, and the consequences that come with it.

I’m sure you will change your mind when you grow up and are able to think rationally on what the Pledge of Allegiance means, for you and for everyone else.
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👍👍👍👍
 
MetalMark said:
Is this wrong?

I find the idea of saying the pledge of allegiance utterly repulsive; my allegiance is to God and only God, not a nation that has legalized the murder of children. Even if abortion was outlawed, I would still object to pledging allegiance to any particular nation at all.
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You are a child of the universe! Google “Desiderata.”
 
dusza said:
We are to be citizens of heaven and only unchanging God is truly worthy of our allegiance and love. This is why saints are so detached from the world. Holy detachment is a necessary step that we will all take on our way to our true Fatherland.
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I’m not sure patriotism – honoring one’s country – is incompatible with sanctity. St. Joan of Arc, King St. Louis, and King St. Stephen come to mind. God first, surely, but perhaps there is a way to honor God by honoring one’s country?

From the CCC:
2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.
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2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country (. . .)
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VC
 
One can be a good Catholic and never say the pledge - one can be a good Catholic and say the pledge. It is not a matter of faith or morals.
 
It does seem odd to pledge allegiance to a ‘flag’. After all, this is the same flag that can be burned as free speech, according to the Supreme Court.

I am happy to live in the USA, but there are many things that I do not feel allegiance to - multi trillion dollar debt, a government that is a gazllion times larger in size and scope that the Founders intended, etc.
 
I’ve always understood that it is not a pledge to the flag in its physical presence. It is a pledge to the ideals of America. The republic, one nation, under God, indivisible, liberty, justice. I’m not sure what about believing in those ideals is “repulsive”.
 
Its interesting to pledge allegiance to something which could make massive errors. What if the US started internment camps again, say of Arabs? What if it started a genocidal war? Do we pledge allegiance to whatever the US does?

Of course, all complains about this aside, the pledge of allegiance is harmless. Its good to identify and have solidarity with one’s country. Its not as if any of us, if commanded to kill a baby by the President, would do so because we pledged allegiance to the US.

Now, patriotism, that may be another issue entirely. I like George Bernard Shaw’s quote: “Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.” It may be true that the US is the best country in the world, but I attribute that to abundant natural resources, a very favorable geographic position, and God’s good graces. Our greatness has had very little to do with our own efforts. There’s a great quote from Pamela, or Virtue Rewarded: “Be sure you don’t let people’s telling you you are pretty, puff you up; for you did not make yourself, and so can have no praise due to you for it.” Patriotism is pride, is it not, in the country in which you live. Why is it that pride in ourselves is perhaps our most dangerous sin, but pride in our country is desirable?

Now, a better form of patriotism (assuming the word can be used as such) is not boastful, arrogant pride, but a sincere love for the people on is surrounded by and a desire to perpetuate the good virtues we cherish. Those reasons were why I joined the military some years ago. That’s what we ought to think about when we “pledge” allegiance to the flag. In this way, we can remain Christ-like (specifically humble and thankful) and yet promote the common good.
 
If you don’t want to say, than don’t. But never, ever look bad upon those of us who are pro-life, catholic, and love our country deeply for all the freedoms it provides. Freedoms where you don’t have to salute the flag, say the pledge, or stand up and show respect for the thousands of people who died defending your right to spout what you want.

No, sit right down and feel morally superior to everyone else who does stand up for the flag.
 
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