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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
…The idea that it is a woman’s “right” to murder her unborn children…
I’m just saying…
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I’m just saying…
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
I really want to address this. I don’t think the OP is at all suggesting that everyone who doesn’t have a problem with the pledge feels morally superior to those who do.
I personally am not patriotic. I lost my ardent patriotism the day I learned abortion was legal and just how heinous it was. (I didn’t even EAT for three days as I was so nauseated). I do not feel any sense of love or commitment to my country. I support the troops, and I pay my taxes. I exist as a citizen of this nation, but I can not claim love for it. The nation may protect my right to say this, but they are not protecting the right of people to live. I see their right to live as greater than any other right granted to me as a born human. Until they can respect the right of all to live, I cannot feel affection to the miniscule rights the grant me by comparison. I pray for my country - and the world - that they will change these horrendous policies so that I can again love my country as I used to.
Does this mean that all pro-lifers should feel as I do? No. Does this mean I stand against my country? No. I don’t think that anyone who is ardently patriotic is sinning, it’s just not something I feel right now personally. All it means tome is that we are at odds for the time being. I will work for change so that when my country respects the rights of others to live, I can begin to love her again.
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markomalley
Guest
OK, so don’t then.
Personally, I would rather see a young person intentionally not say it for a good reason such as yours, rather than see it done reflexively.
Well, you might want to consider what the CCC says about it;2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts: “Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution… Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God.” Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.
2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. ** the love** and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.
The point being that to be a good Catholic, you need to be loyal to your country and make a contribution to it. That allegiance is what you are pledging, not loyalty to a particular government or a particular politician. Of course, loyalty does not mean that you must assent to bad law, bad policy, or bad politicians. You also have a duty to speak out on those things. But, regardless of what politicians on either side say, speaking out about bad policies is also your Catholic duty.
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puzzleannie
Guest
then exercise your conscience and don’t do it but that doest not exempt you from obeying just laws of the civil government.
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michaeldaniels
Guest
You love heavy metal, but despise the pledge??? Today’s youth sure does fall far away from the tree…you have a lot of learning and growing up to do. I guess you have a problem with the 4th Degree of The Knights of Columbus, which I am very privileged and honored to be a member of. Maybe John Paul II was wrong when he called The KofC, “The strong right arm of The Church”.
Whenever I read things such as this from todays “youth”…it saddens me deeply.
Whenever I read things such as this from todays “youth”…it saddens me deeply.
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Rascalking
Guest
I’m sorry that you feel this way towards a country that’s given you so much.
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Rascalking
Guest
I love both heavy metal and the pledge!
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PatriceA
Guest
I have a feeling that if you had a loved one that served in the military and/or gave their life for this nation, you might feel differently about the pledge. After hubby serving for close to 20 years in military, I can’t even stop the tears whenever I hear the national anthem. The Pledge of Allegence has taken on a whole new meaning for me from when I use to recite it in elementary school. Its no longer just a reflex.
The great thing about this nation, is that you can choose to say or not say the pledge of allegiance. In some other countries, you don’t have that privilege. In some other countries, abortion is forced. At least here in America, we have the right to continue to fight for what we see is the murder of innocent babies. If there are things you don’t like about the USA, get up and make your voice known and work to change what you feel is wrong here. But keep in mind, you don’t have that liberty in many parts of this world.
The great thing about this nation, is that you can choose to say or not say the pledge of allegiance. In some other countries, you don’t have that privilege. In some other countries, abortion is forced. At least here in America, we have the right to continue to fight for what we see is the murder of innocent babies. If there are things you don’t like about the USA, get up and make your voice known and work to change what you feel is wrong here. But keep in mind, you don’t have that liberty in many parts of this world.
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Rascalking
Guest
God bless both you and your husband. Thank him for me for his service to the country.
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Julian0404
Guest
It is in the version we say today, the version you claim is contrary to GOD, when in fact it is not. So now you change your story to add that “…as a whoe our society…does not behave like one”, and you have to realize that that includes you. You are also a sinner, and now a hypocrite.
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tjm190
Guest
Hmmm… So patriotism is a virtue? Seems strange- were the early Christians patriotic?
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LoyalViews
Guest
Yes, sometimes I strain from saying to oath, here in Canada. We have to pledge ourselves to the Queen (as we are under her power in the same way that Britian and Australia and other countries are). Sikh and Islam people are allowed to say, instead of the queen “and to Allah” or “and to God”, but Catholics, or and Christians for that matter are allowed to replace it. I am still praying for the conversion of England and Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Since Canada is a monarchy, this is how the pledge goes:
“I, [name], do Solemnly swear (affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors according to law, forever. So help me God.”
I really do not have anything against the Queen, and am a little impressed with her relations to Catholicism. After all, she wasn’t impressed ** at all** when the Church of England decided ordain women as priests, and she also has tried to change a rule of the Toyal family, that no Catholis can achieve the throne, whereas Orthodox, Muslims, Hindus and everybody else can. The King is Greek Orthodox.
But, her reaction to Anglicanorum Coetibus, I was not impressed. I used to think that she was a High Church Anglican, but then I found out recently that she is now a Low Church “dedicated to preserving the protestantity (is that is even a word) of the CofE”
I say the the Wueen is leaning more towards Broad Church now, though. Sorry to go off topic, but as for you, my friend, you live in a GREAT country, although it has faults as every country does. Pray for the States’ conversion. Pray that they will make abortion illegal. I also read in another post that younger teens think abortion should be illegal, and that shows that our prayers are working.
“I, [name], do Solemnly swear (affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors according to law, forever. So help me God.”
I really do not have anything against the Queen, and am a little impressed with her relations to Catholicism. After all, she wasn’t impressed ** at all** when the Church of England decided ordain women as priests, and she also has tried to change a rule of the Toyal family, that no Catholis can achieve the throne, whereas Orthodox, Muslims, Hindus and everybody else can. The King is Greek Orthodox.
But, her reaction to Anglicanorum Coetibus, I was not impressed. I used to think that she was a High Church Anglican, but then I found out recently that she is now a Low Church “dedicated to preserving the protestantity (is that is even a word) of the CofE”
I say the the Wueen is leaning more towards Broad Church now, though. Sorry to go off topic, but as for you, my friend, you live in a GREAT country, although it has faults as every country does. Pray for the States’ conversion. Pray that they will make abortion illegal. I also read in another post that younger teens think abortion should be illegal, and that shows that our prayers are working.
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dusza
Guest
I’m afraid your post completely missed the mark by confusing patriotism (love of country) with dependence on government. People are even more dependent in Cuba, but that doesn’t make them more patriotic.
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Rascalking
Guest
I’m not to sure that they’re missing the point.
I think if you don’t show gratitude for living in the greatest country in the world, the case can be made you shouldn’t accept anything from them.
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michaeldaniels
Guest
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Rascalking
Guest
Thank you my friend! Rock on!You get a pass
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michaeldaniels
Guest
Yeah…I love my country…I would die defending it in a heart beat…but the government…I can’t stand it…I abhor it!!! I loathe it!!!
Some posters like White Acre Girl is confusing the two…hopefully she can understand the distinction between government and country…and hopefully she has love for her country
Some posters like White Acre Girl is confusing the two…hopefully she can understand the distinction between government and country…and hopefully she has love for her country
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lizaanne
Guest
:clapping::clapping::clapping:
I look at it the say way I look at the issues with the Church right now such as the scandals in the USCCB. I love my Church, but I have major issues with some of the human beings who are a part of her right now. I love my country as well, but I have major issues with what some of the human beings and what they are doing to her.
I am always Catholic first and foremost - but I am solid American as well. I know we are not the best, but I also know the grass is not greener on the other side. We have a long way to go to clean up our act. But I am still fiercely patriotic. I just fear my government.
My government is not my country. My country is its people and the principles we were founded on, and the spirit of goodness that I believe is still there, we are just going through a very dark period right now as we grow past the difficult and painfully harmful period brought on by the liberals of the 60’s and 70’s.~Liza
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Whitacre_Girl
Guest
It’s not how much they have given me. I fully acknowledge that my coutry has given me many things. A good education, freedoms to say what I want, and to vote. I am not saying that my country has done nothing for me, or has somehow slighted me. However, I am deeply troubled by the fact that a nation such as ours can give me so much, but blows that all away be endorsing the murder of its own citizens. Millions are dying, and our current society and government applaud it as “choice” and “freedom.” I cannot love a culture that applauds death. It could have a lot do with the state I live in as well. In my state they passed physician assisted suicide. Abortion is legal with no restraints on it whatsoever. Time and again our state votes for pro-death candidates. My voice is not heard in presidential or state elections as the culture around me is so pervasive with people who cannot see beyond themselves and think for the innocent who are suffering and dying in the name of “choice”.
I just can’t love a culture that kills its most innocent, no matter how much they do for me. It’s just too unbalanced. I equate it to living with a spouse who dotes on me continually and shows me kindness, and his friends do as well (this would be the troops, to whom I am eternally grateful!) but then he turns around and advises and allows people to murder one another. His love and kindness to me is completely overshadowed by his actions to others.
I also do not feel that I am failing to make a distiction between nation and government. In a democracy, the nation IS the government. Our culture picks its government. The leadership we have now reflects the culture we live in. However, I did use the spouse analogy on purpose. I am a citizen of this nation, and I am not about to run around calling for revolution. I am praying continually for conversion of the people and the leadership. I am working hard to see the change that is necessary. I pray for our troops, and I show them the highest honor and respect for what they have done for me personally. I am not going to “divorce” my nation, even though I have no love for it at the moment.
Although the situations are differnet, consider this: would you expect a Catholic living in Nazi Germany to feel an ardent love and patriotism for their nation? Nazi Germany did a lot of things for the german people. They pulled them out of the depression they were in, provided education, and social betterment programs, but does any of this overshadow their crimes? I think our Pope gives an example of a proper response to a nation steeped in the most serious crimes against the sanctity of life.
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PatriceA
Guest
Problem with the Germany example, you either supported the Nazi government or you died. At least in America, we can still continue to fight to end abortions and to stand up for what we know is right. At least we can picket abortion clinics and help counsel those in a pregnancy crisis that are considering abortions. We have the liberty to be pro-life and to say it proudly.
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