I need advice to stop masturbating

[Ormond]

I’m sorry, this is CATHOLIC ANSWERS FORUMS, please, remember, this is someone who has come here to ask about the CATHOLIC view of it. And how to stop from a CATHOLIC standpoint.

I am offering a Catholic reply to that question. A different interpretation than many, that’s true. But kindness, mercy, acceptance and an embrace and defense of the innocent are important Catholic values which I respect and wish to support.

It’s up to the mods to decide how to manage this forum, agree fully there. But running to hide behind the skirts of the Nanny Mods to get them to protect your interpretation of Catholicism won’t accomplish much. As example most American Catholics, by a wide margin, reject the teachings of the institutional Church on contraception, and…

There’s nothing anybody can do about it.

All anyone can do is try to persuade, and that requires dialog, which we are already engaged in. If you want a polite engagement, then provide a polite doctrine for me to respond to.

 

[JPUSC]

If you usually stand to urinate, I suggest from now on you sit on a toilet when you urinate. When you shower, I suggest you wash your hands-free zone quickly and circumspectly, using your less dominate hand. I suggest you do all these things for at least a few years to allow time for your body to lose its muscle memory.

“To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[goout]

I am offering a Catholic reply to that question. A different interpretation than many, that’s true. But kindness, mercy, acceptance and an embrace and defense of the innocent are important Catholic values which I respect and wish to support.

It’s up to the mods to decide how to manage this forum, agree fully there. But running to hide behind the skirts of the Nanny Mods to get them to protect your interpretation of Catholicism won’t accomplish much. As example most American Catholics, by a wide margin, reject the teachings of the institutional Church on contraception, and…

There’s nothing anybody can do about it.

All anyone can do is try to persuade, and that requires dialog, which we are already engaged in. If you want a polite engagement, then provide a polite doctrine for me to respond to.

Let me help you object to the real Catholicism, not the Catholicism straw man you have set up.
What is morality?
The evaluation of human acts in reference to the good. Moral evaluations only make sense if you have a reference to the good.
What morality is not:
A list of prohibitions. In Christian morality the prohibitions do not serve themselves, they serve the good of the human being.

What is chastity?

2337 Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man’s belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.

The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift.

What Chastity is not:
Chastity is not the same thing as abstinence.
Abstinence might be part of a chaste life, and it might not be, depending on your state of life.

Hope this helps in your search for Catholicism.

 

[Wesrock]

How exactly is manual stimulation of your sexual organs natural?

I once thought that. Modern culture instills in you that it’s not something that can be controlled and that if you don’t you’re some type of “sexually repressed weirdo”. The idea of stopping therefore seems like an impossible task.

 

[Wesrock]

I am being rude and unfair, that’s true, but that is necessary to accurately mirror a rude doctrine that is threatening innocent people who have harmed no one with eternal damnation, a form of unfairness rudeness which exceeds mine by a wide margin.

The Church’s teaching on ignorance and the criteria for a sin to be mortal are relevant here. Force of habit is a mitigating factor in culpability for sin, and that is certainly relevant towards masturbation. The Church is also there to offer forgiveness and spiritual guidance to those struggling with this sin. It’s not as if every masturbator is automatically damned or excommunicated.

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

No dispute, agreed that the masturbation doctrine you are expressing is a teaching of the Church. Perhaps to you, that makes it automatically correct. Obviously, to me it does not. Thus, we are having a debate on the topic.

I am mirroring the doctrine of the Church on this particular issue back to you. The Church judges, condemns and threatens innocent people, on this particular issue. So I am following the example of the Church by judging, condemning and threatening an innocent person too, you.

I am being rude and unfair, that’s true, but that is necessary to accurately mirror a rude doctrine that is threatening innocent people who have harmed no one with eternal damnation, a form of unfairness rudeness which exceeds mine by a wide margin.

I do apologize for directing my fire at you personally, because obviously you are not the source of this problem, and truly I have no beef with you personally, other than that you are attempting to sell the rude doctrine here in this thread.

I understand that you wish to keep the conversation dignified and professional. That is, you are trying to create a safe place for you to sell the doctrine. But the innocent I am speaking on behalf of are not offered a safe place, they are offered fear, guilt, worry, eternal damnation, self hatred. So by being rude I am denying you and The Church the safe space you deny the innocent, I am inviting you to experience the world this doctrine is creating.

It can’t be a civil exchange so long as we are threatening entirely innocent people who have harmed no one, many of them young, with eternal damnation. That is NOT a civil doctrine. The Church started the unnecessary rudeness on this subject, and I am just following their lead, learning from their example. I am attempting to make the world this doctrine creates real to you by stripping away the abstract phony baloney theological intellectualizations which are being used to hide it’s cruelty.

How does it feel for you, a decent innocent person who is harming no one, to be judged, condemned, and threatened? Is this really an experience you wish to share with others? Is it really a Christian experience?

There is another angle to pursue, which probably deserves it’s own thread. Who is “The Church”? I propose “The Church” is the entire global community of Catholics. I propose the clergy are a very small collection of serious and influential Catholics within the larger whole of “The Church”. The clergy are human beings, men, just like you and me. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they are wise, sometimes they are foolish. It’s from this perspective that I offer my challenge, just as you reasonably challenge me in return.

Example, when high ranking clergy tried to sweep child rape under the rug, did you not challenge that, at least in your private mind? If yes, then there is no real difference between us. Like me, you pick and choose what to support and what to resist. We differ only on the details.

This is my cooled off post. If you wish to continue threatening innocent young people who are harming no with eternal damnation, then I will follow you there and join in the world such a doctrine creates.

You suppose I believe the Church’s teaching to be “correct”, lett’s say, “cosmologically” or in absolute terms.

In reality,
I do not know.

I chose the Roman Catholic Church as the path for relating to God. I am happy to refrain from masturbation if that is the precept, I stick to it.

For me it’s like the rule of the Vincentians, the Dominicans or the Franciscans. If you don’t like the Franciscan rule of poverty, don’t be a Franciscan.

Neither I nor the Church believes that infidels are necessarily going to hell.
We are not the “Catholic taliban”, as you said. If you want to know more about this, let me know and I will post it, esp. If you don’t believe me. Never take someone’s word for it, is my firm belief.

 

[Estevao]

Comparing Catholic teaching on chastity to the taliban is ridiculous and is nothing but poisoning the well. There is no need to address such an assertion.

 

[Ormond]

Let me help you object to the real Catholicism…

“Real Catholicism” is defined by about a billion individual people in their daily lives.

Some of those billion individuals share this view, and some do not, as is true with almost every aspect of Catholic philosophy. That’s the real world my friend. The clergy in Rome can type up any documents they wish, but those documents only have impact to the degree they are able to persuade, just as is true for you and I and our writings too.

 

[goout]

“Real Catholicism” is defined by about a billion individual people in their daily lives.

No. If you insist that it is then you’ll have to admit that man never landed on the moon, because some people believe it.
Do you believe it? …
Catholicism has an objective belief content.
If you want to make a rational objection, you will have to address the content, otherwise you are arguing with the mirror.

 

[Ormond]

I chose the Roman Catholic Church as the path for relating to God. I am happy to refrain from masturbation if that is the precept, I stick to it.

Hopefully it is clear by now that I have no complaint with this at all.

For me it’s like the rule of the Vincentians, the Dominicans or the Franciscans. If you don’t like the Franciscan rule of poverty, don’t be a Franciscan.

Yes, ok, here we come to the subject of “what is a Catholic” and who defines that.

Neither I nor the Church believes that infidels are necessarily going to hell.

Well, we aren’t discussing infidels, but masturbators. Many posters here seem convinced it’s a grave sin, which implies grave punishment. If Church documents explicitly say this is not the case, I am willing to be educated and corrected. While we’re doing that…

Please note the threads across the Catholic web where some posters report great guilt, shame, fear etc in regards to this issue. Clearly they wish to engage in this activity, but are put at war with themselves in doing so. I’m asking you to justify why such an internal war is necessary, or should be sold to others.

We are not the “Catholic taliban”, as you said. If you want to know more about this, let me know and I will post it, esp.

Sure, post what you wish, no problem. Catholic Taliban is admittedly an excessively colorful phrase, but then threatening the most dire form of punishment over what appears to be nothing requires some label other than gracious and generous, imho.

 

[Ormond]

No. If you insist that it is then you’ll have to admit that man never landed on the moon, because some people believe it.

There are a range of views on that subject, as there are with most subjects within Catholic culture. I’m simply reminding you of real world facts that you already know, diverse opinion exists.

Catholicism has an objective belief content.

Yes, this is one of the perspectives within Catholic culture. Some who hold this opinion feel strongly it is the only valid opinion, while others disagree.

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

You must understand that the distinction grave/venial is a concept to help the faithful know if they need to confess before partaking in Communion.

It’s not grave in the sense of being equivalent to, say, murder.

(It pays to read a lot, in contradistinction to just debating. Debating is a bad habit that trains you to argue for your p.o.v. as if for love of dear life.)

 

[Ormond]

You must understand that the distinction grave/venial is a concept to help the faithful know if they need to confess before partaking in Communion. It’s not grave in the sense of being equivalent to, say, murder.

Too vague, but a start I thank you for.

(It pays to read a lot, in contradistinction to just debating. Debating is a bad habit that trains you to argue for your p.o.v. as if for love of dear life.)

Another interesting subject (sincerely) I would be happy to discuss with you, though this is probably all I should say about it here. On with the show…

 

[WingsOfEagles]

This advice is more practical than spiritual. One of the best way to avoid sin is avoid the near occasion of sin. Assuming you are referring to the manual stimulation of your genitals, I suggest, as far as it is practical, you immediately stop all hand-genital contact, even non-sinful contact, and establish a hands-free zone on your body from your navel down to your knees. ** If you usually stand to urinate, I suggest from now on you sit on a toilet when you urinate. ** When you shower, I suggest you wash your hands-free zone quickly and circumspectly, using your less dominate hand. I suggest you do all these things for at least a few years to allow time for your body to lose its muscle memory.

That moment when you wonder if Todd be trollin’ or if he’s dead serious. Somehow I feel like OP can manage to urinate without falling into sin.

OP, I might suggest finding something you can do every time you are tempted. For example, say 10 Hail Mary’s or an Our Father every time you feel yourself wandering in the direction of self pleasure. You could also consider reading a chapter from your Bible. The point is to find something that will distract you from the temptation and by the time you are finished doing that, the temptation should have blown over. Things more religious in nature seem to work best as it’s hard to be thinking of for example, the Virgin Mother, and then immediately fall into sins of impure actions with oneself.

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

“Vague”?

Good grief, Ormond.

 

[goout]

There are a range of views on that subject, as there are with most subjects within Catholic culture. I’m simply reminding you of real world facts that you already know, diverse opinion exists.

Yes, this is one of the perspectives within Catholic culture. Some who hold this opinion feel strongly it is the only valid opinion, while others disagree.

And it still has an objective content.
Just like physics.

Is the world flat Ormond? Does bigfoot exist? Is the moon landing a farce?

If you want to participate in rational discussion,** be** rational.

 

[Wesrock]

Ormond: This topic is in particular a Catholic seeking guidance from like-minded people on how best to change a behavior. I think this is the third thread I’ve seen you take up this objection in. Such objection is fine, but could you please focus your objections on the moral theology board? Perhaps Philosophy if it comes up there under a natural law argument. It’s not that your thoughts are unwelcome here, but arguing over it is a bit off-topic here on the Family board. That’s not to say there cannot be any debate or argument in a topic like this either, but it can only go so far before hijacking a thread, you know? The thread creator is just a Catholic looking for Catholic advice here, not looking to debate the right or wrong of it.

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

I concur, Wesrock.

A place for everything, and everything in its place.

 

[Ormond]

“Vague”? Good grief, Ormond.

Are you going to deploy the Charlie Brown strategy now?

Yes, vague. Is the act a serious sin, a minor sin, no sin at all? What? If I commit the act just before dying (now there’s a plan!), no chance to confess or repent, do I go to hell, purgatory, or heaven. According to you, and/or the Church, as you prefer.

I’m not arguing here just trying to understand your point.

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

So, Ormond, you don’t know even the basics of Catholicism enough to dare argue about it.

I personally would not be so bold.
That, being said, look it up.

P.S. To clarify, the above was not written to "score a point"or “win” the “debate”.