I need help explaining the Trinity to my boyfriend

[Anathama_Sit]

Yes it is, my friend! I have thoroughly enjoyed the experience of discussing and learning from like minded people.
Please know that my response to Robby S was going to be very similar to you.

Please consider I was going to introduce the concept as: Since we believe the person is inseparable from the nature, it can be said that the person is of the nature, the nature is of the person, and the nature is the person. Perhaps we can simply study a person of the world and identify his/her parts of being, without consideration for definitions, and then let’s discuss definitions.

Please share your thoughts on both posts.

Greetings Jochoa,

I agree let’s do it the way you propose. I suggest we save nature for the next post or responses.

I am going to go and get formal definitions for person and nature. These are very intricate words when one considers them.

Okay do we even want to consider Jesus and His two natures in this line of discussion? I may have to revert back to Jesus every now and then to make a point but will try to restrict myself to human and natural for now,.

Okay to me a person has intellect and a will. However is a person’s intellect is impaired, this does not diminish his personhood. [thinking of ethical questions that can arise from this statement.] Can you think of any other characteristics of “person”?

I would recommend at this point in getting some of D.Q. McInerny’s philosophy books. I will be quoting and using some of his material. If you can’t I shall be glad to type those responses out.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Leegal]

I would point you the excellent series now running entitled "Catholicism"created and narrated by Father Barron. In episode two Fr. Barron explains the Trinity. It is currently running on both my local PBS station and EWTN.

Somewhere on the site you can put in your zip code and it may give you the stations that are running this program.

ewtn.com/

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Been following your discussion. It occurs to me that western thought is heavily laden with the idea of "matter " Of the human being as a “chunk” of something. But all material objects are --so we believe–constellations of energy in space-time.
Atomic theory once held that bodies are collections of tiny objects. Properly thought of, however, a particle such as an electron is not like a very small planet but a probability of an action which is known only when it has an effect we can measure. We see it only through its effects. Collectively, the effects of those things that make up our bodies are what we “see.” To get to the point, all our persons are images. The body, the person of Christ is therefore an image, a perfect one. Like the one that God intends us to be, if we conform our will with Christ’s.

Greetings RobbyS,

May I ask when you say that “But all material object are --so we believe-- constellations of energy in a space-time” a few questions.

1. Who is included in the “We”?
2. From what source are you referring to when you are saying this statement.

Person is not image… However the Second Divine Person is the perfect Image of God the Father. *

When you say the body is an image, I answer it is not. An image does not take up space and time. Jesus as Man and God took up space and time. If Jesus was an image, both his body and Divine self, how could he have died for us. Images do not live and die. This my friend is not a theological belief nor one that is orthodox. We believe that Jesus is much more than an image…

God Bless.
Anathama Sit*

 

[Anathama_Sit]

A very spiritual view. The Enlightenment view, which amounted to a kind of deification of human reason, tried to reduce “spirit” to non-matter or “energy.” whether in the body or without, analogous to a magnetic or electric field, or gravitational one–if such exists. A kind of reinvention of the ancient worship of Apollo, as Lewis Mumford once pointed out. Mathematics became a kind of code
unlocking the secrets of Nature. The magical outcomes have convinced the world of the truth of this religion. Ironically, it seems to have reduced the human being to less than the person you describe, to a kind of organic machine. Further irony, the Enlightenment built its structure on Newtonian physics while at the same time failing to realize how Newton actually knew the world. That was very different from the Deist view of the world which saw the Universe as a kind of giant clock, and Newton’s psychology --he was a very strange man–was nothing like that proposed by his friend Dr.Locke, which is the basis of modern psychology.

Greetings RobbyS,

I notice that you do not place a religion status in your stats which is your perogative. However I am thinking you are coming from a non-religious point of view? Am I correct?

The reason that I ask this, it will truly help me to understand where you are coming from.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[RobbyS]

Greetings RobbyS,

I notice that you do not place a religion status in your stats which is your perogative. However I am thinking you are coming from a non-religious point of view? Am I correct?

The reason that I ask this, it will truly help me to understand where you are coming from.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

No, I am not coming from a non-religious view. I am Catholic.

 

[RobbyS]

Greetings RobbyS,

May I ask when you say that “But all material object are --so we believe-- constellations of energy in a space-time” a few questions.

1. Who is included in the “We”?
2. From what source are you referring to when you are saying this statement.

Person is not image… However the Second Divine Person is the perfect Image of God the Father. *

When you say the body is an image, I answer it is not. An image does not take up space and time. Jesus as Man and God took up space and time. If Jesus was an image, both his body and Divine self, how could he have died for us. Images do not live and die. This my friend is not a theological belief nor one that is orthodox. We believe that Jesus is much more than an image…

God Bless.
Anathama Sit*

I am not talking about a symbolic representation but the real thing. An image exists within space-time. An image exists within the mind of God. But let me be clear about one thing. We know we cannot comprehend the hypostatic union. The very term is a “verbal picture” of that relationship which we are trying to comprehend. But we really don’t have the language for it. It is totally beyond our experience. Indeed, much the same is true of things such as electrons. We can only see the effects. “It” is invisible to us. If one follows Hume, then he just shrugs, so to speak, and says the thing in itself is “unknowable.” Then we get into the quandary caused by Kant as he tried to deal with such skepticism. I don’t know how to resolve any of this. But, heck, St. Thomas himself finally just said "whatever,"and let the Lord illuminate him.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

No, I am not coming from a non-religious view. I am Catholic.

Greetings RobbyS,

Thank you for answering the question.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Anathama_Sit]

I am not talking about a symbolic representation but the real thing. An image exists within space-time. An image exists within the mind of God. But let me be clear about one thing. We know we cannot comprehend the hypostatic union. The very term is a “verbal picture” of that relationship which we are trying to comprehend. But we really don’t have the language for it. It is totally beyond our experience. Indeed, much the same is true of things such as electrons. We can only see the effects. “It” is invisible to us. If one follows Hume, then he just shrugs, so to speak, and says the thing in itself is “unknowable.” Then we get into the quandary caused by Kant as he tried to deal with such skepticism. I don’t know how to resolve any of this. But, heck, St. Thomas himself finally just said "whatever,"and let the Lord illuminate him.

Greetings RobbyS,

You still did not answer as to what the “we” is that I asked about earlier in your last response.

I still do not believe that Jesus as the Divine Person before He assumed a human nature his image existed in time and space. For God is Infinite and likewise Jesus. I am not sure that I can agree with you here. When you say that Jesus as an image exists in the Mind of God somehow I am sure you are short selling this somehow but I am unable to articulate it. Perhaps some thinking further on this will help.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[jochoa]

Greetings Jochoa,

I agree let’s do it the way you propose. I suggest we save nature for the next post or responses.

I am going to go and get formal definitions for person and nature. These are very intricate words when one considers them.

Okay do we even want to consider Jesus and His two natures in this line of discussion? I may have to revert back to Jesus every now and then to make a point but will try to restrict myself to human and natural for now,.

Okay to me a person has intellect and a will. However is a person’s intellect is impaired, this does not diminish his personhood. [thinking of ethical questions that can arise from this statement.] Can you think of any other characteristics of “person”?

I would recommend at this point in getting some of D.Q. McInerny’s philosophy books. I will be quoting and using some of his material. If you can’t I shall be glad to type those responses out.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

I apologize for my misuse of grammar. I should have stated, “without regard for definitions. So, when considering the components of a person and nature, just look at a person and describe what all is present and happening.”

Now I will add that I greatly appreciated your statement of a person has intellect and a will. This was very helpful in growing in spreading the means.

From your statement, I interpreted, “a purposeful person uses the mind to control the will of the body.”
Unfortunately, I do not have the wisdom to share the very deep knowledge gained from this grace. Hopefully one day, sooner than later, I can state it simply.

Thoughts?

Once again, I may only hope I may one day, sooner than later, share the incredibly deep wisdom gained from that simplicity.

 

[RobbyS]

Greetings RobbyS,

You still did not answer as to what the “we” is that I asked about earlier in your last response.

I still do not believe that Jesus as the Divine Person before He assumed a human nature his image existed in time and space. For God is Infinite and likewise Jesus. I am not sure that I can agree with you here. When you say that Jesus as an image exists in the Mind of God somehow I am sure you are short selling this somehow but I am unable to articulate it. Perhaps some thinking further on this will help.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

Jesus was true God and True man. But the more we examine him, the more he eludes us. He has to come to us. he must examine us. We are never the observer but the observed.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

I apologize for my misuse of grammar. I should have stated, “without regard for definitions. So, when considering the components of a person and nature, just look at a person and describe what all is present and happening.”

Now I will add that I greatly appreciated your statement of a person has intellect and a will. This was very helpful in growing in spreading the means.

From your statement, I interpreted, “a purposeful person uses the mind to control the will of the body.”
Unfortunately, I do not have the wisdom to share the very deep knowledge gained from this grace. Hopefully one day, sooner than later, I can state it simply.

Thoughts?

Once again, I may only hope I may one day, sooner than later, share the incredibly deep wisdom gained from that simplicity.

Greetings Jochoa,

I too misuse grammar quite a bit despite all the training I have had to use it correctly. Makes for more difficult thesis writing.

When you say that you interpreted “a purposeful person uses the mind to control the will of the body.” I had never thought of that before. It is to the will that the mind and the body subject themselves to or should. [Optimally one’s Will should conform or subject itself to God.] My spiritual director is constantly telling me to pray with my mind in my heart. Why? Becuase if we are in a state of grace, then God is dwelling in our hearts and if we can but bring our mind into our hearts before God, life becomes quite peaceful. However I am finding more and more that my mind does not want to subject itself to this. I would not like to think that I am not a purposeful person. I would like to think that my Will is in control of my mind, and my will is conforming more and more to Jesus.

What do you think?

If there is any grace from simplicity it is from God of which I am thankful that he takes these poor words of mine and transmits His Mysteries.

I am keeping you in my prayers.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Jesus was true God and True man. But the more we examine him, the more he eludes us. He has to come to us. he must examine us. We are never the observer but the observed.

Greetings RobbyS,

Jesus IS still True God and True Man. I can agree with you in saying that He has to come to us for us to know Him. However he calls us to Love Him and to be in Union with Him. How can one be in love with something that they do not observe or examine? How can one love one they do not know?

On this earth when we have friends and family, we observe them all the time and go to them. Our love deepens becuase of the time we spend with them and the more things that we learn about them, somehow this enrichens our love for them. Perhaps this is the same way with Jesus.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

 

[jochoa]

Greetings Jochoa,

I too misuse grammar quite a bit despite all the training I have had to use it correctly. Makes for more difficult thesis writing.

When you say that you interpreted “a purposeful person uses the mind to control the will of the body.” I had never thought of that before. It is to the will that the mind and the body subject themselves to or should. [Optimally one’s Will should conform or subject itself to God.] My spiritual director is constantly telling me to pray with my mind in my heart. Why? Becuase if we are in a state of grace, then God is dwelling in our hearts and if we can but bring our mind into our hearts before God, life becomes quite peaceful. However I am finding more and more that my mind does not want to subject itself to this. I would not like to think that I am not a purposeful person. I would like to think that my Will is in control of my mind, and my will is conforming more and more to Jesus.

What do you think?

If there is any grace from simplicity it is from God of which I am thankful that he takes these poor words of mine and transmits His Mysteries.

I am keeping you in my prayers.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

My friend, I am really enjoying considering your perspective! I especially like your lines, “It is to the will that the mind and the body subject themselves to or should. [Optimally one’s Will should conform or subject itself to God.]” And please note, I was only sharing one method of interpreting (the one I was struggling with). You are correct in that the mind and body should learn from the will. There is also the mind learning from the body. There is also the mind learning from another person’s mind or body or will.
Here is the amazing personal interpretations I perceive from your thoughts:
Recognize that God’s Will proceeds, because it willingly subjects itself, from His Mind and Body. If we want to do God’s Will, we must want to learn the thoughts of God’s Mind and feelings of God’s Body. Those who believe they are a child of God, whose feels or thinks they are called to do God’s Will, those should want to learn from His Mind and His Body, so that we may be able to perfectly conform our Will to His Will. Those who believe they are One with the Body of the Son of God through the Eucharist will want to learn from and do as the Mind/Intellect of God the Father Directs. And the instance a person eternally achieves and spreads that goal, they become one with the God’s Will, The Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ in His Last Supper and Crucifixion!

In other words, at all times there is learning from God to be done: As you will, think, and feel, and as you study, learn, and interact with others, are all good times to learn.
Every Truly loving action, thought, and feeling is the result of: wanting to be and wanting to spread the means to be perfectly patient, kind, motivated, and knowledgeable equally towards others and the self, for unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy, and content wisdom as an individual and society.
As you learn, ask yourself how aligned is the will, thought, feeling, and interaction aligned with God’s Greatest Commandments. Learn to do those things that are well aligned more often and more completely.

You had excellent grace. my friend!

Thoughts?

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Greetings Jochoa,

There is much in your wonderful response that I wish to respond to. Reading it, I felt somsething inside jump up inside and yell, yes, yes, yes, this is what it is about. My today has been wonderful considering it is a Monday, and you have helped contribute to what has been a nice day.

My friend, I am really enjoying considering your perspective!

As I am enjoying yours.

There is also the mind learning from the body. There is also the mind learning from another person’s mind or body or will.

You know there is some amazing thoughts here. There are pratical times for this. Sometimes our bodies tell us that we are exhuasted and our mind must listen to them at times. [Unfortunately my mind and will is stubborn and tries to override my exhuastion to my own detriment, perhaps I woud do better to listen more.]

As to your second statement, that can be applied in the Sacrament of Marriage. How the two are to become one flesh. The Sacrament of Marriage is a shadow of a soul’s Union with God. How beautiful that is. Thanks for bringing these points up. I certainly have a lot to chew in just these two short sentences.

Here is the amazing personal interpretations I perceive from your thoughts: Recognize that God’s Will proceeds, because it willingly subjects itself, from His Mind and Body. If we want to do God’s Will, we must want to learn the thoughts of God’s Mind and feelings of God’s Body. Those who believe they are a child of God, whose feels or thinks they are called to do God’s Will, those should want to learn from His Mind and His Body, so that we may be able to perfectly conform our Will to His Will. Those who believe they are One with the Body of the Son of God through the Eucharist will want to learn from and do as the Mind/Intellect of God the Father Directs. And the instance a person eternally achieves and spreads that goal, they become one with the God’s Will, The Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ in His Last Supper and Crucifixion!

This is where I was jumping up and down inside and yelling yes, yes yes. There is a Scripture that says we are not to conform to the ways of the world. Often we are called to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is Perfect. The closer our Will conforms to that of God, the closer Union we have with God. Oh how I long for the Union between God and my soul to be perfected and consummated in heaven. Here on Earth, the Eucharist brings a taste of what it can be.

Well said.

In other words, at all times there is learning from God to be done: As you will, think, and feel, and as you study, learn, and interact with others, are all good times to learn.
Every Truly loving action, thought, and feeling is the result of: wanting to be and wanting to spread the means to be perfectly patient, kind, motivated, and knowledgeable equally towards others and the self, for unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy, and content wisdom as an individual and society.
As you learn, ask yourself how aligned is the will, thought, feeling, and interaction aligned with God’s Greatest Commandments. Learn to do those things that are well aligned more often and more completely.

Yes the foundation of it all. Charity. Towards God and others. The foundation of charity is humility. If one keeps the Love of God above all things, the others will follow. Charity is willing the good of the other. My friend it takes years for some to realize this, but you have realized it in a short order. I can see the hand of God at work in your life.

It is a life lived and grounded in Love of God and neighbor that one reaches that unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy and ect. This sounds like heaven. This sounds like Union with God. It IS Union with God. *

You had excellent grace. my friend!

It is all thanks to Jesus that He gives the graces to me. I would wish that every one would have His grace and His blessings.

Thank you for a great response.

So do you have anything to add to the “concept” of person?

God Bless.
Anathama Sit*

 

[RobbyS]

Greetings RobbyS,

Jesus IS still True God and True Man. I can agree with you in saying that He has to come to us for us to know Him. However he calls us to Love Him and to be in Union with Him. How can one be in love with something that they do not observe or examine? How can one love one they do not know?

On this earth when we have friends and family, we observe them all the time and go to them. Our love deepens becuase of the time we spend with them and the more things that we learn about them, somehow this enrichens our love for them. Perhaps this is the same way with Jesus.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit

Of course he is. But he has gone into hiding so to speak, or into disguise. I try to keep in mind that he was a particular man living at a particular time among particular friends in a particular space. Just like you and I. But, then, again, not like you are I, for even then he was in disguise. Glory shrouded in flesh.

 

[jochoa]

Hello, my friend! Thank you very much for sharing your very kind, inspirational, and revealing thoughts! Once again, your graceful words opened my eyes to deeper alignment with recognition of the Sacrament of Marriage, plus shed some light on a powerful concept which I am unable to express in words. Hopefully in time, I will be able to wisely state the concept.

Yes the foundation of it all. Charity. Towards God and others. The foundation of charity is humility. If one keeps the Love of God above all things, the others will follow.

You are definitely correct in Loving God All the time with all the person. Please consider the following thought process as to justify that I only implied God for the sake of being provable, non-intrusive, and to encourage discussion. I will first share my thoughts on the qualities of perfect motivation: Every thought/feeling/action requires a source of motivation. Without a source of motivation, all potential energy is purposeless. Therefore, we must identify what are the qualities of perfect motivation:
-It must be inexhaustible: if it runs out, then so does the person.
-It must be omnipresent: if it is not available, then the same for the person.
-It must be immaterial: since it must be omnipresent.
-It must be eternal: if it is not there before, then no thought nor feeling nor action would initially occur. If it is not there after, others couldn’t use it.
-It must be personal: if it is impersonal, then the person will lose desire to continue work for the source of motivation.
The are only two sources of motivation which satisfy all the factors: True Love and God, with God being the greater source for He offers hope for the end of time, but at the same time leaves openness for True Love being first.

So do you have anything to add to the “concept” of person?

I am extremely glad you asked, for this is where things get even more exciting, and a clearer alignment with Catholicism becomes evident. First, I will begin with enlarging the concept.
Once again, since the foundation of all Wisdom is in the Greatest Commandments, this is the basis for conceptualizing.
To enlarge the concept, let’s consider person as an entity with distinct persons: There is the head person, which sets how the entity will operate. There is the body of persons, from which the head person (“one in being”) must also subject him/herself to the same control. Then there is the will of persons which must freely subject themselves to operate perfectly according to how the head person commands.
The following application is one method of interpreting the 3 distinct persons reveal to All the World that Jesus Christ is God: Spirit, Body, Mind, and Will:

1. Jesus Christ is somehow (John 1:2) existing(I have a highly complicated concept that I hope to share one day). He is God.
2. As He tells the Word to His Chosen people, they can only perceive him as God.
3. The instance He comes down from Heaven and becomes man, His Image and Knowledge and Will of His Spirit remains unchanging (The Father). And at the same time, He becomes Jesus of Nazareth (The only Begotten Son of God) of the human nature, personally defined as: a free-willed being which does not operate fully according to the Truly Loving Nature.
4. The instance Jesus of Nazareth perfectly aligns His human nature with the Truly Loving Nature is the Holy Spirit.
5. However, in order to demonstrate this to the masses of people of the world, a free-willed human of a separate body and mind, must become perfectly and ever-lastingly atone with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ, while on earth as to demonstrate the awesomeness of unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, unstoppable energy, and content wisdom for all, including the self, through the powers of perfect patience and kindness and motivation for God with all the body, and with all the spirit, and with all the thoughts, and with all the will equally towards others and the self (Perhaps the Son of Man, considering a possible distinction from the son of Man).

Maximizing this concept gets Amazingly-Well Aligned with the Magisterium and Catholicism
To enlarge the concept of entity, let’s consider an entity as a society with several people: There is the governing head, which sets how the society will operate. There is the governed body of persons, from which the head person (“one in being”) also subjects him/herself to the same control. Then there is the will of persons which must freely subject themselves to operate perfectly according to how the head person commands.
During the Catholic Mass, at the Head of the Church is Jesus Christ and His Magisterium. When we celebrate the Eucharist, we become one with the body of Jesus Christ, including His Magisterium. Therefore, since we are the body of Jesus Christ, we must go and perfectly do His Will. (There is a deeper concept I am interested in exploring, but it is too complex for me to ponder.)

Thoughts?

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Of course he is. But he has gone into hiding so to speak, or into disguise. I try to keep in mind that he was a particular man living at a particular time among particular friends in a particular space. Just like you and I. But, then, again, not like you are I, for even then he was in disguise. Glory shrouded in flesh.

Greetings RobbyS,

I can understand about the disguise thing, he did not show his glory before His crucifixion excpet once, and that on the Mount of Tabor.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit