I need help understanding 2 verses

[rivera01]

[BIBLEDRB]John 1:29-34[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 11:2-3[/BIBLEDRB]

The quote from John’s gosple is an earlier account before Matthew’s quote considering that John was in Herod’s prison. If John knew who Jesus was, why did he ask the question in Matthew? Or did he not knew the fullness of the Divine Sonship of Christ?

 

[fide]

[BIBLEDRB]John 1:29-34[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 11:2-3[/BIBLEDRB]

The quote from John’s gosple is an earlier account before Matthew’s quote considering that John was in Herod’s prison. If John knew who Jesus was, why did he ask the question in Matthew? Or did he not knew the fullness of the Divine Sonship of Christ?

Hello rivera01,

There are two different matters in the two different passages:

1. John knew Jesus as He had been revealed to John by the Father: He is the Lamb of God; He takes away the sin of the world; He pre-existed John; He is baptized by the Holy Spirit.

All these revelations from God to John did not match with the one-to-come expected by Israel. Thus John’s question in Matthew:
2) Are you the one to come, or should we look for another?

The Jesus who came still, to this day, does not match the expectation of the one expected by the Jews today! Thus they do not accept Jesus as their promised Messiah, to this day: they are looking for something different. (With some few exceptions, of course).

Does that help?

 

[rivera01]

Yes, I understand what you are saying and I am aware that most Jews, even to this day, do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. But I am having a little trouble trying to see how John would have corralated the Messiah that the Jews were expecting, to the Messiah that we/they needed. Just by reading the gosples, it seemed as if John was aware of Jesus’ mission, since he states “Behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.”

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Hi Rivera,

There are several things going on in the two quotes.

When Mary came to see her cousin Elizabeth, John was already older than Jesus. During that encounter, the Holy Spirit came upon Elizabeth and she opened her mouth as a prophet about Mary. During this encounter, the Holy Spirit did not only descend on Elizabeth – but upon John who is inside her womb.

In the OT tradition, the Holy Spirit comes upon a child to make him a prophet; and one consecrated to God as a permanent Nazarite. A good example is Sampson, the judge.

Just so, there is a sense that John was Baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit in that encounter; but like Sampson, such a baptizm is not (I think) a sacramental one which erases original sin AND makes one a child of God, able to enter heaven.

Thus, Jesus says of John: “There is no greater man born of woman than John the Baptist, but the least born into the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
(We need not concern ourselves with his sainthood – as that is Guaranteed by his Martyrdom on account of Jesus.)

In any event, the Israelites following John were convinced he was the messiah, on account of John’s miraculous birth, special naming ( Jonas? John? ) and the stirrings of the Angels with Zechariah, and the Spirit with Elizabeth (etc). John had to persistently dispel this wrong notion; and it is clear that anyone still following John after Jesus had been baptized was stubbornly under a delusion about John.

Hence, John simply uses an innocent ruse/personal ignorance to get his followers into a conversation with Jesus; Jesus’ response is the proof of his messiahship – the lame walk, the blind see, the dumb are opened… These signs are specific to the messiah in the prophecies of Isaiah, etc.

John himself performed no miraculous signs.

All old testament prophets (including John) could only see Jesus through scripture in images and signs, they did not have a full understanding of who he was to be; From this side of the picture, we can grasp that John as an O.T. prophet wouldn’t have fully understood what the messiah was; but by the prompting of the Holy Spirit he could say things which he himself did not understand.

As an example of this prophetic ignorance, Caiphas the high priest said “it is expedient that one man die, than all men die”. His statement is based on Jealousy and Fear – but the statement itself is from the Holy Spirit and has a much larger meaning than Caiphas could possibly have understood – since he was NOT Christian.

Re-read what I have said, slowly, and then compare what John said in your above quotes to what his mother would likely have told him about the visitation of Mary to see them: I think you can see how he might be very puzzled about the words the Holy Spirit made him speak – for many of them seem diametrically backward to possible interpretations.

 

[COPLAND_3]

I like what Cornelius a Lapide says

I say, therefore, that John sends his disciples, and asks Jesus whether He be the Coming One, namely, the Messiah, not as doubting about Him, but because, being near death, he wished his hesitating disciples to be instructed concerning Him, that they might be led to Christ. So St. Hilary, St. Chrysostom, St. Cyril. Observe, too, the prudence of St. John. He in his own name asks Jesus if He be the Christ, because his disciples would not, of themselves, have dared to propose such a question.

 

[rivera01]

Hi Rivera,

There are several things going on in the two quotes.

When Mary came to see her cousin Elizabeth, John was already older than Jesus. During that encounter, the Holy Spirit came upon Elizabeth and she opened her mouth as a prophet about Mary. During this encounter, the Holy Spirit did not only descend on Elizabeth – but upon John who is inside her womb.

In the OT tradition, the Holy Spirit comes upon a child to make him a prophet; and one consecrated to God as a permanent Nazarite. A good example is Sampson, the judge.

Just so, there is a sense that John was Baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit in that encounter; but like Sampson, such a baptizm is not (I think) a sacramental one which erases original sin AND makes one a child of God, able to enter heaven.

Thus, Jesus says of John: “There is no greater man born of woman than John the Baptist, but the least born into the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
(We need not concern ourselves with his sainthood – as that is Guaranteed by his Martyrdom on account of Jesus.)

In any event, the Israelites following John were convinced he was the messiah, on account of John’s miraculous birth, special naming ( Jonas? John? ) and the stirrings of the Angels with Zechariah, and the Spirit with Elizabeth (etc). John had to persistently dispel this wrong notion; and it is clear that anyone still following John after Jesus had been baptized was stubbornly under a delusion about John.

Hence, John simply uses an innocent ruse/personal ignorance to get his followers into a conversation with Jesus; Jesus’ response is the proof of his messiahship – the lame walk, the blind see, the dumb are opened… These signs are specific to the messiah in the prophecies of Isaiah, etc.

John himself performed no miraculous signs.

All old testament prophets (including John) could only see Jesus through scripture in images and signs, they did not have a full understanding of who he was to be; From this side of the picture, we can grasp that John as an O.T. prophet wouldn’t have fully understood what the messiah was; but by the prompting of the Holy Spirit he could say things which he himself did not understand.

As an example of this prophetic ignorance, Caiphas the high priest said “it is expedient that one man die, than all men die”. His statement is based on Jealousy and Fear – but the statement itself is from the Holy Spirit and has a much larger meaning than Caiphas could possibly have understood – since he was NOT Christian.

Re-read what I have said, slowly, and then compare what John said in your above quotes to what his mother would likely have told him about the visitation of Mary to see them: I think you can see how he might be very puzzled about the words the Holy Spirit made him speak – for many of them seem diametrically backward to possible interpretations.

Yes, I understand where you are coming from and I have heard from theologians state that the OT prophets prophesied without even understanding what the message meant.

I like what Cornelius a Lapide says

I say, therefore, that John sends his disciples, and asks Jesus whether He be the Coming One, namely, the Messiah, not as doubting about Him, but because, being near death, he wished his hesitating disciples to be instructed concerning Him, that they might be led to Christ. So St. Hilary, St. Chrysostom, St. Cyril. Observe, too, the prudence of St. John. He in his own name asks Jesus if He be the Christ, because his disciples would not, of themselves, have dared to propose such a question.

This answer has satisfied my biblical confusion.

Thank you all.