I need help with a JW/Arian....still!

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Hello all,

I do not know if you have read the thread: The Hypostatic Union contradicts the Law of non-contradiction.

I received some very good replies, and used them. This is the reply I got back:

catholicforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=95270&postcount=2

if anyone would care to read that post and help me to respond, I would appreciate your help.

I responded that his starting point (in which he wrangled the definition as Jesus is all God and all man, instead of fully God and fully man) was incorrect.

Please help!!!

thank you,

in search of wisdom in Jesus’ Heart,

maurin
 
maurin said:
Hello all,

I do not know if you have read the thread: The Hypostatic Union contradicts the Law of non-contradiction.

I received some very good replies, and used them. This is the reply I got back:

catholicforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=95270&postcount=2

if anyone would care to read that post and help me to respond, I would appreciate your help.

I responded that his starting point (in which he wrangled the definition as Jesus is all God and all man, instead of fully God and fully man) was incorrect.

Please help!!!

thank you,

in search of wisdom in Jesus’ Heart,

maurin
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Let’s look at the argument (which I have posted here.)
In the one person there are two natures, Divine nature and human nature. Further, these two natures are substantially united in one subsistence. This would violate the law of non-contradiction. (Btw., You have grasped the principle of non-contradiction correctly: “Another example: Can I be both a poor man and a rich man? At different times? YES! At the same time? YES! At the same time and in the same respect? NO”)
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Here’s why.
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(1) All S is P.
(2) All S is ~P.
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These two statements are by definition contradictory for any S and any P.
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(1a) All Jesus is God. (This is declared true by the council of Nicea.)
(2a) All Jesus is Man. (This is declared true by the council of Chalcedon.)
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Christ is both God and Man at the same time in the same person and the “being” of God is not the “being” of man.
{A}: Jesus is God, and {~A}: Jesus is not God (i.e. He is man).
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The relationship between these two propositions is the same in ontology (relationship) and temporaly (i.e. at the same time). This violate LC.
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Looking at it from another angle, it is logically inconsistent to say a being is God(omniscient,omnipotent,omnipresent,Creator) and man(not-omniscient, not-omnipresent, not omniscient, not Creator) in the same person at the same time.
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His error is in assuming a thing must be all one thing and not another. Yet I have a blanket that is all blue and all soft. How can this be? By his logic, it can’t!

I am a man, a husband, a father, a soldier and a Catholic. I’m not 20% each! I’m all man, husband, father, soldier and Catholic.

Just so, Jesus can be both man and God. And be all of both.
 
dear vern,

thank you for your response. I have been talking to this guy for a while, and I know how he might respond: soft and blue are attributes of the one blanket.

the question then is: are the two natures of Christ attributes of the one Jesus? Is that a correct way of putting it?

your little brother in wisdom,
maurin
 
I am both visible and invisible.

I have a body, which is visible.
I have a soul, which is invisible.
Both my soul and my body are me.

I do not violate the law of non-contradiction.

God Bless,
RyanL
 
hello Ryan,

thank you for responding. I have also been thinking along those lines, but am not quite sure if that is the most efficient response. What makes us human is our rational soul (spirit) and our bodies (matter). Impossible to separate, but clearly distinguishable.

Although I agree that this is along the correct lines.

May I ask you to elaborate more? Maybe together we can come up with a more exact answer? Or maybe saying together we can come up with a more philosophically precise answer?

thanks for your thoughts,

maurin
 
maurin said:
dear vern,

thank you for your response. I have been talking to this guy for a while, and I know how he might respond: soft and blue are attributes of the one blanket.

the question then is: are the two natures of Christ attributes of the one Jesus? Is that a correct way of putting it?

your little brother in wisdom,
maurin
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The answer to that is that he’s indulging in reification – the idea that we can arrive at truth by defining a word (as if all words were pre-defined in some dictionary in the sky.)

Jesus is – that is, He is a real historical personage, not a hypothetical construct. He is both God and Man – that is his nature. Therefore both the human and divine are as much a part of His quiddity as the blueness and softness of my blanket.
 
You’re already on!!! Thank you, vern. I look forward to your help and wisdom. (I was a little disappointed with Chris’ response, I don’t know if you’ve read it yet. I agree with him on some levels, but on others, God is pure is reason and will not violate His own laws, I do not.) So glad you joined the conversation!!!

I invite all y’all to come and help, too!!! Please do.

maurin
 
maurin said:
You’re already on!!! Thank you, vern. I look forward to your help and wisdom. (I was a little disappointed with Chris’ response, I don’t know if you’ve read it yet. I agree with him on some levels, but on others, God is pure is reason and will not violate His own laws, I do not.) So glad you joined the conversation!!!

I invite all y’all to come and help, too!!! Please do.

maurin
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We’ll do what we can.
 
At the council of Nicea, St Nicholas walked up to Arius and slapped him in the face (or punched him in the nose depending on which account you read).

I’m not advocating violence, but I felt compelled to relate that story. 😃
 
Mickey said:
At the council of Nicea, St Nicholas walked up to Arius and slapped him in the face (or punched him in the nose depending on which account you read).

I’m not advocating violence, but I felt compelled to relate that story. 😃
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As a sufferer from Restless Leg Syndrome (I often have an almost uncontrolable urge to kick the cr*p out of sophists), I sympathize with Saint Nicolas.😃
 
Yes, I empathize. But let’s try to do so academically, and not physically!!!
 
maurin said:
Yes, I empathize. But let’s try to do so academically, and not physically!!!
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All in jest my friend. All in jest.

…but here is the rest of the story. St Nicholas was defrocked of his bishopric for his actions and dismissed in shame. However, the Mother of God appeared to all the other bishops at Nicea in a dream on the same night. They were told to reinstate him immediately, for he is a man of God. They did.

Arianism is not a pleasant heresy, and anyone who holds to it is in dire staits.
 
🙂 of course it was all in jest. It was also very funny.

great story about St. Nicholas. I don’t believe I’ve heard it before.
 
maurin said:
🙂 of course it was all in jest. It was also very funny.

great story about St. Nicholas. I don’t believe I’ve heard it before.
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That’s why St. Nicholas and St. Fiacre are my favorite saints.

(The latter is the patron saint of hemrrhoids, and is a big help when you have to deal with someone who’s a real pain in the butt.)😉
 
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